Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you understand my question? In what connection would
you see him after you got out of school?
Mr. RUBY. I used to be a lifeguard at a swimming pool close to where
he lived and he used to come over there once in a great while, just a
few blocks from his house. And he used to—he was a Good Humor salesman,
and we would go out and see him where he parked his truck or something
once in a great while. But that was because he was more friendly with
other people than he was with me. In other words, I wasn’t one of his
buddies. I would go along just for the ride.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you do any business with him?
Mr. RUBY. I am coming to that. Then he became—he opened up the Mike
Shore Advertising and he is the one that was behind Earl Muntz, you
know, and the cars and the television. That is Michael Shore. And I
did some business with him along in manufacturing. He got into the
manufacturing of an item, a food seasoner. It was a large aluminum
needle and you filled it with some different meat flavors and you
injected it in the meat. Somebody talked him into it. He was doing
very well, and he invested in it. Anyhow, it wasn’t made correctly
so they couldn’t sell it, so he asked me since at that time I was in
manufacturing, if I could correct the defect so they could at least
sell them and market them, which I did. They shipped all these to me, I
don’t know how many thousand, 5,000 or 10,000, and we reworked them and
fixed them and sold them for him. Then not too long after that Muntz
practically went bankrupt, so he closed the Chicago office and moved
back to California. So, anyhow, I called Mike.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you another question. From what you have said,
I take it that Mike Shore first had contacted your brother Jack or
somebody in Dallas?
Mr. RUBY. No, no, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack told you to call Mike Shore?
Mr. RUBY. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, had Shore contacted Jack or what gave Jack the idea
of suggesting that you call Shore?
Mr. RUBY. Well, Jack knew that I knew Mike Shore, and he was, you
know—he had been in advertising, was the only one we knew that could
give us any advice as to what to do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Jack had someone approach him in connection with a
life story or something like that?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; he said several people were trying to contact him
through Howard and wanted a life story.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The first you heard about this, though, was when Jack
called you and asked you to contact Mike Shore?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; as far as I know. Now, wait—I don’t know if he talked to
me or he talked to one of the members of the family, because we had so
many telephone calls from those first few days I can’t recall all of
them. But, anyhow, the word came to me to call Mike Shore and ask his
advice.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall how long after Oswald was shot that
this call of yours took place?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, just a day or two later, I think.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And I take it you did call Mike Shore?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call him in California?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I called him in California.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And about how long did your conversation with Shore last?
Mr. RUBY. Several minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ten or fifteen minutes?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. I really don’t know. Anyhow, I don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, tell us what that conversation was.
Mr. RUBY. Well, I mentioned that Jack had said that people were
interested in a story on Jack and Jack had said to contact him, ask
his advice. And so he says, “Gee, that is a coincidence,” he says,
“because I’ve got somebody sitting right here in my office that would
be the perfect man to do a story on Jack if one is going to be done.”
And he says, “His name is Billy Woodfield.” His real name is William
Woodfield. So he says, “I think you ought to come out here,” the
conversation got to that, “so we can talk it over.”
So I flew out there a day or two later.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that all there was to the conversation at that time?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; lawyers weren’t mentioned yet as far as I remember. I
don’t think we mentioned the lawyer in the first conversation.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you discussed with your family or with Tom Howard
before you called Mike Shore——
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What had been your discussion about selling the life story
with your family and with Tom Howard?
Mr. RUBY. Well, the question came up that we would need money for a
good lawyer, and this was one of the solutions to raising money.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you called Mike Shore, are you saying that you had
discussed getting a lawyer other than Tom Howard, or when you use the
term good lawyer are you talking about paying Howard?
Mr. RUBY. No: we were talking about a lawyer other than Howard now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who had suggested that you should get a lawyer other than
Howard or how did that idea arise?
Mr. RUBY. That was, I think, between our family, the family itself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you discuss this with Howard before you called
Mike Shore?
Mr. RUBY. Wait, you are ahead of me. The first conversation I didn’t
mention a lawyer to Mike Shore yet.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I realize that.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But I am still asking you, you had indicated to me that
the reason that you were calling Shore and thinking about a life story
was that you were going to need money for another lawyer. The life
story, as I understand it, is tied in with the idea of getting the
money for a lawyer, or was there another reason for selling the life
story?
Mr. RUBY. No; I think I talked to Tom Howard because we never heard
of him, of course. In the meantime, I think in conversations back and
forth, we talked with another lawyer there, somebody talked to him from
the family or maybe it was relayed through my sister Eva down there—and
I have a brother Sam in Dallas—do we need another lawyer. And then we
learned that they were already trying to get a lawyer.
Now, you must understand, we have to go back to Tom Howard. Tom Howard
is a bondsman in addition to being a lawyer. That is what he is noted
for there. So then I think I talked to this other lawyer, Stanley
Kaufman. He was my brother’s civil lawyer down there. And I asked him
if he knows a good criminal lawyer, and he says, no, he can’t recommend
anyone.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you, Mr. Ruby.
Mr. RUBY. Excuse me. I can’t remember the exact sequence of all these
conversations, because they were going back and forth all day and night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe we can reconstruct it by asking you questions. From
what you have said, I take it that by the time you called or somebody
talked to Stanley Kaufman, the idea had been implanted that you would
need a lawyer other than Tom Howard.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, who had planted the idea? How did that idea develop
that you would need a lawyer other than Tom Howard?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t remember exactly, but it could have been even my
own thoughts, because a day or two after the shooting and the papers
started to print stories, and stories about Tom Howard, and I realized
who he was, and he was suspended at one time, I immediately thought
this was not a good lawyer to have for my brother.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what was Jack’s original attitude, if you know, about
Tom Howard?
Mr. RUBY. He wasn’t too crazy about Tom Howard, as far as I could see,
from what he told me, because he said Tom Howard contradicted himself a
few times to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But did Jack, to your knowledge, develop the idea on
his own that he should get somebody other than Howard, or was this
suggestion raised to Jack?
Mr. RUBY. That I don’t know. You are asking me what his thoughts were.
I don’t know. I can’t answer that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I didn’t know if you had contact with him or not. Now, to
your knowledge, were any other Dallas lawyers contacted besides Tom
Howard before the final team of Belli, Tonahill, and Burleson?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; Belli was the main one, you know. He was the first
one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but before Belli was brought in, were any other
Dallas lawyers, or Texas lawyers——
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; they talked, Howard—Howard and I discussed this,
and he said he needs help, he wouldn’t mind another good lawyer. So we
mentioned several names. He talked to Percy Foreman, and Percy Foreman,
he told me Percy Foreman wants $25,000 as a retainer before he will
even step into the case. So he says, “I know you don’t have that kind
of money so that eliminates him.”
However, later, upon talking to Foreman, he denies that. He said he
only asked for $2,500.
Anyhow, they contacted Stanley Kaufman. Stanley Kaufman contacted Fred
Brunner. He is a Dallas criminal lawyer, very good. And the story I got
is he says, “Okay, I’ll handle the case. I will be right down to take
over.”
He never showed up. We found out why. He is Henry Wade’s best friend,
and so it just wouldn’t work out. He just couldn’t take it. Although he
never called, we understood that that is what happened, because they
down there found out that he was Henry Wade’s best friend, and so he
probably for one reason or another, he couldn’t take the case.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t have any personal knowledge, however, that the
friendship with Howard was the reason that Brunner didn’t take the case?
Mr. HUBERT. With Wade.
Mr. GRIFFIN. With Wade. You don’t know this?
Mr. RUBY. No; I talked to Brunner myself when I was down there later
on. Brunner said something to the effect—I don’t remember the exact
words. I ran into him in the county jail. I don’t remember what he said.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say anything to you about why he didn’t get into
the case?
Mr. RUBY. I am just trying to, if I can find the words or something
close to what he said. We just met in the hallway, and he said—I can’t
recall that conversation at all.