Mr. HUBERT. Now, you understand, I am not giving you any assurance
that there will not be available to the public a transcript of this
testimony.
Mrs. RICH. I understand this. I thoroughly understand this.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mrs. RICH. Well, he claimed to have worked for Jack Dragna, presently
residing at San Quentin.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say he is in the penitentiary?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know for what offense?
Mrs. RICH. Income tax evasion. I suppose. I don’t know for sure.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mrs. RICH. Let me state at this time that half of what I am about
to say—I am sorry—all of what I am about to say is hearsay. Half, I
believe.
Mr. HUBERT. We understand that. You are telling us what he told you he
had done in the past, but that you don’t know for sure whether it is
true.
Mrs. RICH. That is correct. But I want that in the record. That he did
everything from handle Dragna’s call girls to be a heavy, so to speak.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by a heavy?
Mrs. RICH. Well, bodyguard.
Mr. HUBERT. Bodyguard for whom?
Mrs. RICH. Jack Dragna, and various subsequent members, shall we say,
of the organization that used to come into California.
Mr. HUBERT. What organization was that?
Mrs. RICH. Call it by what you will—syndicate, Mafia.
Mr. HUBERT. Who were some of the people involved?
Mrs. RICH. I could not tell you. I do know that he mentioned that he
personally knew Mickey Cohen and Virginia Hill.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know any other names?
Mrs. RICH. Jimmy Gilreath.
Mr. HUBERT. Would G-i-l-r-e-a-t-h be about right?
Mrs. RICH. I would assume so.
Mr. HUBERT. So what you are telling us is that your former husband, now
deceased, Robert Perrin, had told you that among other things he acted
as bodyguard for certain members of a syndicate, as you call it, and
you have named, I think, four people who belonged to the syndicate.
Mrs. RICH. Supposedly, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And what was the syndicate about, from what you learned
from your husband?
Mrs. RICH. Well, everything from prostitution to illegal gambling to
narcotics.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, all of this you know by hearsay alone?
Mrs. RICH. By hearsay alone.
Mr. HUBERT. I ask you that question because a moment ago you said that
half of what you said was hearsay.
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. And I assume that the other half was not.
Mrs. RICH. I do know this, that he claimed that he ran guns—this was
years ago, when Franco was coming into power. I do know this to be a
fact, because he spent time in jail there.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did he spend time in jail?
Mrs. RICH. In Spain. I do know he fought for both sides, as a
professional soldier.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say you know that, I take it that you mean that he
told you so.
Mrs. RICH. No; I do not mean that, sir. I mean I have seen written
proof of this statement.
Mr. HUBERT. Such as what?
Mrs. RICH. Such as a prison record. Now, let me qualify that. I have
seen said statement on record, call it what you may. Now, how authentic
it was, I cannot swear to it.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean he showed you a prison record?
Mrs. RICH. I found it. From stuff in Spain—both Madrid, and a place
called Consuela.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of a prison record was it?
Mrs. RICH. It wasn’t as you would think of a prison record. It was
merely a piece of paper in Spanish with a list of articles on it that
was on his person at the time he was arrested. Another one was of a
release signed by a Teniente Enriquez, which would be a lieutenant
here, at the Madrid Secreto Servicio.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you better spell all that out, because you are
using a foreign language, and I am not sure that the reporter can get
it except by the sound.
Mrs. RICH. All right. To clarify this, it was written in Spanish.
I will quote it in English. “An article list, signed by Lieutenant
Enriquez.”
Mr. HUBERT. That is his last name?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; a release signed by someone in the Secret Service,
which is comparable to our detective system on a city police force.
Mr. HUBERT. It was a lease of what?
Mrs. RICH. A release.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to him about these documents?
Mrs. RICH. He seemed quite proud of the fact.
Mr. HUBERT. I gather from that that you did talk to him about it?
Mrs. RICH. I did. Quite frankly, I asked him what in the heck it was
all about. At that time, he claimed, he said, “Well, you won’t believe
me. I wasn’t making it up.” He claimed he ran guns and used to pilot a
small boat.
Mr. HUBERT. Ran guns where?
Mrs. RICH. Into Spain, for Franco.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the date of that document? Did it have any
date on it?
Mrs. RICH. I would say it was in the late thirties, I wouldn’t be sure,
late thirties or early forties. It was either just prior to him going
into the United States Army or after he was released. Now, I cannot be
sure on that.
Mr. HUBERT. You think that it could not have been earlier than, say,
1935?
Mrs. RICH. No, it could not have.
Mr. HUBERT. Why are you sure of that?
Mrs. RICH. For the simple reason he was born in 1920. It couldn’t have
been much prior to 1935. It was either late thirties or early forties.
Again, I would like to, for the record, state that my husband was a
writer.
Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about Perrin now?
Mrs. RICH. Yes. And had a vivid imagination, as most writers do.
Whether or not these were authentic documents, I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he die a natural death?
Mrs. RICH. Suicide. The coroner’s report was arsenic. I also would
like to state for the record at this time after my husband’s death the
Veterans’ Administration Hospital, I believe it is the one in Denver,
that finally came up with the report, came up with the report that my
husband was discharged from the service for hysteria, and had a history
of mental disturbance.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you living with him at the time he died?
Mrs. RICH. I was.
Mr. HUBERT. You state to us now that the coroner’s report in New
Orleans, I suppose——
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Showed that his death was caused by arsenic voluntarily
consumed, right?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you lived part of the time that you were married to
Perrin in Dallas, did you not?
Mrs. RICH. Yes. Why I am hesitant—I would like to clarify that
statement. I went to Dallas seeking Mr. Perrin. He had left me.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were you living when he left you?
Mrs. RICH. We were living in Belmont, Mass.
Mr. HUBERT. What address?
Mrs. RICH. No. 11 Holden Road.
Mr. HUBERT. How long after he left you did you seek him out in Dallas?
Mrs. RICH. I was in New Hampshire with the state legislature at the
time. I was doing public relations. And I had just obtained a job, a
position for him, and I telephoned to Massachusetts to tell him to come
on down, and there was no answer. And I had a feeling that something
was wrong. So I hightailed it back to Massachusetts, and there was a
note. And the note said that he was going to Dallas. I called and he
wasn’t there. I called halfway over the United States, thinking of
places he told me he had been, and I couldn’t find him.
Mr. HUBERT. What place did you call in Dallas?
Mrs. RICH. I called the police department and a foundry he had
mentioned in a letter, and had read the name of a gentleman he had
mentioned at this time whose name eludes me—Youngblood—I take it back.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember his first name?
Mrs. RICH. No; I don’t. But my husband claimed—and I couldn’t ask him,
because if he was he couldn’t have told me—claimed he was some sort of
a Government agent, which was in all probability true.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you contact Mr. Youngblood?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; he hadn’t seen him. Then I proceeded to call Kansas
City and various other points I thought he might be.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you actually contact the Dallas Police Department?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get any report from them?
Mrs. RICH. Except that he wasn’t there. Or that they didn’t know he was
there.
Mr. HUBERT. They did report that fact to you?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How did they do so?
Mrs. RICH. By phone.
Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead.
Mrs. RICH. I then informed him that I would be there, which I did.
Subsequently, Mr. Perrin—and I will never understand——
Mr. HUBERT. How long after the events you have just told us about, to
wit, your coming home and finding that he wasn’t there—how long after
those events did you go to Dallas?
Mrs. RICH. Approximately 1 week.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. When was that?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, gosh. That was in, I believe, May. I can’t give you the
exact month. But I believe it was in May.
Mr. HUBERT. Of what year?
Mrs. RICH. Of 1961. Or was it 1962? ’62. I am sorry—1962.
Mr. HUBERT. And how long—did you find Mr. Perrin?
Mrs. RICH. Again in a way. He wasn’t in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was he?
Mrs. RICH. Well, afterwards, when he arrived in Dallas, I found out
that he had been in South Bend, Ind., with my secretary.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, when did you meet him in Dallas?
Mrs. RICH. He wrote mother, found out where I was—and came to Dallas, I
believe, it would be around July.
Mr. HUBERT. Of 1962?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. So you had been there alone from May of 1962 until July of
1962?
Mrs. RICH. I am giving approximate dates, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when he did arrive, what happened?
Mrs. RICH. Just like nothing had happened. Everything was fine.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean there was a reconciliation between you?
Mrs. RICH. I loved my husband very much.
Mr. HUBERT. But, in any case, you proceeded to live together as husband
and wife?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How much education have you had, Mrs. Rich?
Mrs. RICH. I have had 3 years of high school.
Mr. HUBERT. What high school?
Mrs. RICH. Biddeford High, in Biddeford, Maine.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you leave there?
Mrs. RICH. I left when I was 16. That would be in 1954—1953—I am sorry.
And I got married, and I go back, and I drop out because I am going to
have a child. Then after I have the child I go back, and I am doubling
up on my courses and could have graduated. But I was too smart, and
knew everything.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any other type of training?
Mrs. RICH. Depending on what you mean—formal education—meaning book
learning?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, yes.
Mrs. RICH. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or other types of training, such as stenography?
Mrs. RICH. IBM, and police investigation.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the IBM aspect? Did you study that?
Mrs. RICH. I made a misquotation. It would be Remington Rand, actually.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you study?
Mrs. RICH. Not with Remington Rand as a company. For Craftsman Life and
Health Insurance Co. of Boston.
Mr. HUBERT. You worked there?
Mrs. RICH. I did.
Mr. HUBERT. And studied the operation of Remington Rand machines there?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us the name of some of the people you worked
with there?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, you are going back too far, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was that place located?
Mrs. RICH. On Boylston Street.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the name of the manager?
Mrs. RICH. It may sound odd—whether this name has stuck in my mind or
not—but it seems to me his name is Griffin, too. I may be wrong.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you there?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, probably 6 months.
Mr. HUBERT. That was after you married?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, no. No—in fact, I was working there when I met Musachio.
That was back in 1958.
Mr. HUBERT. I see. You had divorced your first husband?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned something else besides IBM.
Mrs. RICH. Police investigation.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, where did you learn that?
Mrs. RICH. From various police organizations, district attorney’s
offices.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you name them, please?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; some with the Boston Police Department.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did you work with?
Mrs. RICH. We called him Papa McGill. Sergeant McGill, and John
Dinatele, I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work there?
Mrs. RICH. Well, I was a young kid, and didn’t have any brains. I blew
a case, and that was it.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you paid?
Mrs. RICH. At that time; no.
Mr. HUBERT. Your answer suggests that at a later time you were paid.
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. With the same department?
Mrs. RICH. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, with what police department?
Mrs. RICH. With the district attorney’s office of Sacramento.
Mr. HUBERT. California?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work there?
Mrs. RICH. Well, this wasn’t a question of working. I worked as needed,
or as a case came up. I worked for Mr. Oscar Kistle, Chief Deputy
District Attorney, who as of this January is now a judge.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you work with anybody else there?
Mrs. RICH. I worked with the Hayward Police Department, in California.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did you work with there?
Mrs. RICH. Lieutenant—I can’t remember his name.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work with that police department?
Mrs. RICH. Well, I left. That is why I discontinued my association with
them. Again, as needed.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, altogether, how long were you there?
Mrs. RICH. Altogether, if you want to put it running day by day,
probably 3 weeks. If you want to say—actually I was associated with
them probably 3 or 4 months.
Mr. HUBERT. That is what I meant.
Mrs. RICH. But not worked steadily.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand.
Mrs. RICH. And the Oakland Police Department.
Mr. HUBERT. Oakland, Calif.?
Mrs. RICH. California.
Mr. HUBERT. And who did you work with there?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, dear. I worked on grand theft. Lieutenant—I can’t
remember—whoever the lieutenant is in charge of grand theft detail. Lt.
Parker.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay in Oakland with that association?
Mrs. RICH. Again, about the same length of time as Hayward. I was
working with both of them at the same time, and also Sacramento. In
that type of work, you cannot get by in just one.
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think you mentioned Sacramento yet.
Mrs. RICH. The district attorney’s office, yes, I have. At this time,
if necessary, I can introduce a letter into evidence verifying part of
this testimony.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you wish to do so?
Mrs. RICH. I believe I would.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you have the letter?
Mrs. RICH. I do. Note for the record I hand a letter to Mr. Hubert,
signed by Chief Deputy Kistle.
Mr. HUBERT. You have handed me this document. Do you wish—I assume you
wish to keep the original.
Mrs. RICH. That is the only one I have, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you mind if we had a copy made of it?
Mrs. RICH. I would not.
Mr. HUBERT. And then we can hand you back the original.
Mrs. RICH. That will be fine.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, when did you first meet Jack Ruby?
Mrs. RICH. When I first reached Dallas, I, of course, went directly to
the police station. Ironically enough, the first person I met was Mr.
Tippit.
Mr. HUBERT. What is his first name? Are you referring to the Tippit who
was shot on November 22d?
Mrs. RICH. I would say so. I believe it is the only Tippit on the
police force.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. So you met Mr. Tippit. And what happened then?
Mrs. RICH. I walked in and plunked $4 on the desk and said, “Here I
am.” He said——