Mr. SENATOR. I called up Jim because I happened to know Jim and Jim was
an attorney.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You thought about calling Jim before you knew who it was
that had shot Lee Oswald?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know at the time that you tried to call Martin
that it was somebody associated with the Carousel Club that had done it?
Mr. SENATOR. You mean Jack Ruby, my roommate?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Now, you say it was after you called Martin that you
learned that it was Jack Ruby who had shot Oswald, but you said as I
understand it somewhere between the time you learned Oswald was shot
and you learned Ruby had done it, you heard something about it being
someone from the Carousel Club.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You did not?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So that at the time you called Mr. Martin, you had no idea
who shot——
Mr. SENATOR. I called him because it was local news. That is why I
called Jim.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you think of calling anybody else?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you think of trying to get ahold of Jack Ruby to tell
him about it?
Mr. SENATOR. No; because Jack left home shortly before that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have some idea where he was?
Mr. SENATOR. No; none whatsoever.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you walked into the police station, I understand
you to say that you were mobbed by members of the press? Did you say
anything to those members of the press?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, they ganged me so and everybody was throwing
questions at me, and I don’t even remember the things that I answered
because they asked me so many things and so many people were mobbing me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you were answering their questions?
Mr. SENATOR. I was answering some of them, whatever they were asking me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say it was that you answered questions?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. Maybe about 5 minutes I guess before two
policemen nabbed me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any of the questions they asked?
Mr. SENATOR. No; God, they was throwing them left and right. I couldn’t
keep up with them. I just couldn’t keep up with them, what they were
talking about. I was just in circles, you know. Now how can I answer
these questions there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see reports in the newspaper the next day or that
evening about what you had said down at the police station?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t. I didn’t see no papers that evening. As a
matter of fact, I never even saw the run, I—still to this day—I’ve
never seen the TV of the shooting. I have never seen that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you went out to Martin’s house, did you have any fear
for yourself?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any fear or thought that the police or
someone might try to implicate you?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you describe yourself as being shaken up when you
were at the police station——
Mr. SENATOR. Something like this, I would say the normal person it
would make him nervous. Here I have gone through a half a century
already and I have never had any incidents in my life, and I would say
the normal person would be shaken up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t have any more. Wait a second. Let me ask this.
When you came downtown with Mr. Martin, did you come down in his car or
your car?
Mr. SENATOR. I think I came down in my truck. No, I think I came down
in his car. I’m not sure but I think I came down in his car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you parked, whose car it was where you
parked downtown?
Mr. SENATOR. Either parked on Commerce or Main Street, one of the two.
I’m not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Near Harwood or near Pearl, or were you right in front of
the police station?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no; we were down further, just to grab a parking
space. I just don’t remember how far down it was, but I would assume,
I think we walked, I don’t know, maybe two or three blocks to my
knowledge, something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you come by the Western Union station?
Mr. SENATOR. Going up with Mr. Martin?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Either way, either going downtown or walking back to the
police station.
Mr. SENATOR. I think we come up Commerce. I’m not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me then be more direct about this. Do you have any
recollection that day of seeing Jack Ruby’s car downtown?
Mr. SENATOR. No; that I have never seen, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t think I have anything more, Mr. Hubert.
Mr. HUBERT. Before I pass on to another aspect, I think there is one
point that needs a bit of clarification. Mr. Griffin asked you whether
or not you considered calling Ruby when you heard that Oswald had
been shot, to convey the news to him as you conveyed it to your other
friend, Mr. Martin. You said that you had not because you didn’t know
where he was; is that correct?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I knew he left the house, you know, before I did.
Mr. HUBERT. You have also testified that he had told you that he was
going to take the dog to the club.
Mr. SENATOR. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, you knew he was at the club or at least you had
some indication?
Mr. SENATOR. He could have been there. Now he told me he was going to
the club.
Mr. HUBERT. And the club was just about a block away?
Mr. SENATOR. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. So when you didn’t get Mr. Martin, you didn’t try Ruby at
the club?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You knew the number of the club?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any comment to make as to why you didn’t call Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. No particular reason. I didn’t think of it, because when
he left the house he said he was going to take the dog to the club and
most naturally I heard the conversation he was going to the Western
Union, so who knew where his whereabouts would be.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, of course, you didn’t know his whereabouts after you
called Martin?
Mr. SENATOR. That is right, there was no particular reason. It just
happened to be that I thought of Jim Martin.
Mr. HUBERT. All I want to do is to give you an opportunity to state
for the record why it was that you did not next think of calling your
friend and roommate whose approximate location you knew?
Mr. SENATOR. It just didn’t enter my mind, that is all. I just didn’t
think about it. There was no particular reason why.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this, Mr. Senator. Was it your practice to
spend time socially with Jack Ruby other than when you saw him at the
apartment? Did you and he do things together?
Mr. SENATOR. No; first of all I’m out most of the time. When I get up
in the morning, I mean he is still sleeping when I got up, and I don’t
see him in the daytime. Maybe on rare occasions something will happen,
but the overall picture, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you say you are out most of the time. Is this in
connection with your business?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a set of calls that you make every day?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I make calls.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Regular customers that you call on?
Mr. SENATOR. Customers, or at times probably get new ones.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now on Saturdays or Sundays you do not work?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. With whom do you spend your time on Saturdays and Sundays
normally?
Mr. SENATOR. Nothing in general. Once in a while I would meet Jim
downtown because Jim Martin comes downtown on a Saturday, like a lot of
lawyers do. They come down about 10, 10:30, 11 o’clock and they check
their mail or any messages come in, such as that. Incidentally Jim
Martin’s office is right across the street; of course, he just moved
recently. It was at the Davis Building which is across the street from
the Adolphus Hotel on Main. He has been there for quite a number of
years to my knowledge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who would you list as your friends in Dallas outside of
Jim Martin and Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, the people I stayed with who were friends of mine.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us their names?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; Jean and Lindy Lauve, a fellow by the name of Bill
Downey, Tom Howard, the attorney. I don’t say I associated with him but
he is a friend of mine. Another lawyer by the name of Mike Barclay: he
is a friend of mine. Not that these are complete associations that you
are with them every day or so, or things of that nature.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But are there other people whom you see more often and you
are closer to than Barclay and Howard?
Mr. SENATOR. No; not particularly. Of course, every now and then an
out-of-town friend of mine would come in, a traveling man; if he
happened to be in Dallas I would see him, or he may call me. In other
words, I’ll put it this way—I had a particular hangout.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that?
Mr. SENATOR. That was the Burgundy Room. I used to go there quite often.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is in the Adolphus Hotel?
Mr. SENATOR. That is in the lobby of the Adolphus Hotel. When I used
to go in, you know, the latter part of the afternoon, around 5, used
to always run across friends that you know and we would always have a
talk session or something of that nature there. Of course, I had many
friends that came in there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you would say that you saw Barclay and Howard and
Martin more often than you saw the other people?
Mr. SENATOR. Martin more so than the others. But the others, I’d see
them every now and then. Like the trial I’d seen them down at the
courthouse and things of that nature.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now what about the Lauves?
Mr. SENATOR. The Lauves, those are people who I stayed with, who kept
me up when I didn’t have a place to stay.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But did you see them more often than you saw Howard and
Barclay?
Mr. SENATOR. I stayed there every day. I was living there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean prior to the shooting.
Mr. SENATOR. Prior to that on rare occasions, on rare occasions. One
time I used to see them quite often. Of course, that is when I was
traveling.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But at the time that Jack Ruby shot Lee Oswald, of all
the people you have mentioned, Jim Martin was the person you felt the
closest to?
Mr. SENATOR. He was a close friend of mine. I used to see him almost
every day, especially more so during the trial.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But what I am trying to get at is was there anybody else
to whom you felt equally as close?
Mr. SENATOR. I had—let me put it this way—I had a lot of good friends.
I don’t know how you want to classify what you call close. Many friends
I had, good friends.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Apparently of all the people you knew in Dallas, the one
that you felt most inclined to call when you heard that Oswald had been
shot was Jim Martin.
Mr. SENATOR. It happened to be I thought of Jim Martin, yes, and I
called him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And if you had reached him at that time, I suppose you
would have gone out to his house or you would have carried this on
further. You have had some conversation with him about it?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I imagine so. I would imagine so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am getting at is you didn’t really have to convey
the news to Jim Martin or anybody else.
Mr. SENATOR. No; it just happened to be it was local news, you know. It
is like probably a thousand other people did, called their friends “Did
you hear this, did you hear that.” It could be anywheres in the country.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When the President was shot did you call anybody?
Mr. SENATOR. No; because I didn’t know. I was told.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But when you were told did you call anybody?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no; because the reason I didn’t call anybody, it was a
weekday. Now this is only guesswork. It was a weekday, and, of course,
I assumed that everybody knew it as fast as I knew it or probably
faster than I knew it, with the many thousands of people who were in
that locale, they knew it before I did.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, let’s continue from the point that you left the
jail. Did you meet anyone?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who?
Mr. SENATOR. I was with Jim, I met Jim Martin and another attorney who
I had only met for the first time and I don’t remember his name.
Mr. HUBERT. They were waiting for you or you met them outside?
Mr. SENATOR. They told me they would meet me somewheres.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was that?
Mr. SENATOR. We met at a bar across the street from the courthouse.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the name of the bar?
Mr. SENATOR. I think it was the TV Bar.
Mr. HUBERT. The message you had was that they would meet you there, is
that right?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you did go there and talked to Martin and the other
lawyer?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the other attorney.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you with them?
Mr. SENATOR. If I recall right, I would say we sat in that bar and had
two or three beers, if I remember right. I think I said to Jim “I don’t
have a place to sleep or a place to go” because I was afraid to go home.
Mr. HUBERT. You told that to Jim Martin?
Mr. SENATOR. I told that to Jim, and I believe—wait a minute now—I
believe, I am not sure but I think I went to his house and he said he
would put me up on the couch if I was afraid to go anywheres, which I
was. From there on in I was afraid to go home.
Mr. HUBERT. Why?
Mr. SENATOR. Why was I afraid to go home? Well, I was just scared, that
is all.
Mr. HUBERT. Of what?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know of what, but I was scared.
Mr. HUBERT. Obviously you were scared that somebody might try to hurt
you?
Mr. SENATOR. Very possibly, yes; on something like this. Now who or
what I don’t know but that was the instinct I had. As a matter of fact
I was scared for about 10 days after that.