Mr. SENATOR. In other words, when I snapped my fingers I meant he would
get over it that fast from me.
Mr. HUBERT. So, from your own experience there have been innumerable
occasions where he would react toward you in such a way that you would
describe it as anger, manifested——
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Wait a while.
Mr. SENATOR. You would think he was going to hit me but I knew he
wouldn’t.
Mr. HUBERT. This anger being manifested by a loud tone and certain
gestures which would indicate he was going to hit you, but didn’t, and
that you have seen many times, and you also tell us that——
Mr. SENATOR. I have seen it on myself at certain times. Many times with
others, but whatever the thing might be, I mean I don’t know. Like I
told you before, if somebody come up there and pinched a stripper or
something like that, which has happened, man, this would throw him off.
He didn’t like that.
Mr. HUBERT. But you say he would calm down right away?
Mr. SENATOR. He would calm down right away. And he would warn them
“Again, out” and he would put them out. There wouldn’t be any
hesitation. He protected his girls up there, this I’ll tell you, at all
times.
Mr. HUBERT. I want to explore another aspect of this that you have
mentioned, and that is that as quickly as he flared up he seemed to
flare down, if you want me to put it that way, calm down. Can you give
us examples of that?
Mr. SENATOR. I can give you examples of myself on that.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean that following one of these flareups that you have
described?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he would holler at me.
Mr. HUBERT. Then it would be all over.
Mr. SENATOR. He would holler at me and raise the roof at me and then he
would tone down.
Mr. HUBERT. How long would it take?
Mr. SENATOR. A matter of a minute or two.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he wouldn’t brood over it. Having gotten
mad at you he wouldn’t be a brooder. He would change to another subject
and be quite his normal self again?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. See I couldn’t make this man wrong. I can’t make
him wrong, you know. I’m the wrong one. I refer to myself, mind you.
Whatever it might be I can’t be right.
Mr. HUBERT. That was the way he treated you?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To stay in this same general area here, did you know that
Jack owned a pair of knuckles?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when he bought them?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I would probably say that he probably had them before
I was ever close to him. I am only guessing. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you learn that he had them?
Mr. SENATOR. I saw them in a cloth sack once. He carried them in a
cloth sack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he keep that sack?
Mr. SENATOR. No particular place. The one time I saw it, it was home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he keep anything else in the sack?
Mr. SENATOR. Of course, he had a gun which everybody knows. You see,
Jack’s bank account was his pockets, not the bank but his pockets. That
is where his bank was. And he always carried various sums of money,
which could be $1,500, $2,000, $3,000, $4,000, whatever it might be, in
all different pockets.
Mr. HUBERT. Now before we explore that area further, I want to get a
few generalities concerning Jack. What were his drinking habits? You
shake your head. What does that mean?
Mr. SENATOR. He is not a drinker.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t drink at all?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t drink at all, or very little?
Mr. SENATOR. I wouldn’t say at all but I would probably say if he took
a half dozen drinks a year he took a lot.
Mr. HUBERT. How about smoking?
Mr. SENATOR. No smoking whatsoever.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his attitude toward women?
Mr. SENATOR. Like any other man.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say any other normal man?
Mr. SENATOR. Any other normal man.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever observed any traits which suggested to you
the possibility of homosexuality?
Mr. SENATOR. Never.
Mr. HUBERT. On his part?
Mr. SENATOR. Never.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any peculiar mannerisms which might have
suggested such a thing to other people, even though it was not so?
Mr. SENATOR. I never noticed it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he lisp?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. So do I.
Mr. HUBERT. Jack has a lisp?
Mr. SENATOR. He has a lisp. He has always had it to my knowledge.
Mr. HUBERT. In your opinion he was not homosexual at all?
Mr. SENATOR. No. Just as normal as any human being.
Mr. HUBERT. He was single.
Mr. SENATOR. He has got a brother older than he is and single, never
been married, Hyman.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any girl friends?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he went out with various girls.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am getting at is what you know about his sex
relationships.
Mr. SENATOR. His sex relationship, you know I’m not there to watch
wherever he may be.
Mr. HUBERT. Still you may have some knowledge of facts which would
throw light upon that.
Mr. SENATOR. He likes women.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?
Mr. SENATOR. How do I know he likes women?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I like women.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever tell you that he liked them?
Mr. SENATOR. Did he ever tell me? In any normal conversation I’m
certain anybody here, who doesn’t say they don’t like women. I think
this is a normal thing to say.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at is simply this. Very naturally
as you pointed out a moment ago, it is very rare that there are any
eyewitnesses to acts of sexual intercourse. On the other hand, there
are other facts and circumstances from which one may judge if a man is
having sexual intercourse with a particular woman, and that is what I
am trying to get at. Do you know of any such things?
Mr. SENATOR. This here I’m never around.
Mr. HUBERT. What?
Mr. SENATOR. You mean when he is having sexual intercourse with a woman?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; of course you wouldn’t be around, but do you have any
opinion as to whether or not he was having any affairs of a sexual
nature with anybody? If you are reticent about naming names, perhaps we
can leave that off.
Mr. SENATOR. I have no names to name, but I am certain that he likes
women. I know he talks to them like I talk to them or anybody else
talks to them.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever bring any to the apartment that you know of?
Mr. SENATOR. I am certain he has had them up for coffee when I have
been there, such as that or a drink or talk, conversation. He has had
even the help up there, you know. Once in a while we have a party. This
is when I turn out to be the cook.
Mr. HUBERT. But you can’t tell us then of any particular person that
you would think Jack had intimate relationships with?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know of any at all that you could even suggest in
your own mind?
Mr. SENATOR. I have seen him talking to many girls but if anything of
that nature I am not around where he don’t want me around.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever ask you to leave, for example, because he was
having some feminine company, or indicate that he was?
Mr. SENATOR. On rare occasions he has said he was going to have some
company or somebody over.
Mr. HUBERT. And he indicated that he wanted you to leave?
Mr. SENATOR. On rare occasions.
Mr. HUBERT. That is the sort of thing I am talking about that would
indicate some factual situations upon which you can base your opinion.
That is what I was speaking of a moment ago when I asked you for facts
and circumstances that would throw light on your opinion, recognizing
fully that normally one never actually is an eyewitness to such a
thing. Do you have any other types of episodes or evidence of that
nature?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his relationship do you think with the girls at
his club, I mean the waitresses?
Mr. SENATOR. The girls in his club? Strictly business, strictly
business.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that if a person said that Jack was on the
make for every one of the girls that worked for him it would be a wrong
statement?
Mr. SENATOR. I have heard that expressed many a time.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you think about that statement?
Mr. SENATOR. It definitely is a wrong statement.
Mr. HUBERT. You never saw it.
Mr. SENATOR. Now what their conversations may be, you know, after all,
he has talked to all the girls in the club at one time or another. What
the conversations are I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. But you never saw anything that would indicate to you in
any way, or heard anything by him that would lead you to the conclusion
that his relationship with any of the girls was of an intimate
character?
Mr. SENATOR. No; if it was, I didn’t know about it.
Mr. HUBERT. What about Jack’s attitude about what his girls did in the
nature of sexual intimacies with other people than himself?
Mr. SENATOR. The girls working in the club?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. You refer to the strippers or the cocktail waitresses?
Mr. HUBERT. I refer to both, and if there is a difference between them
then I would ask you to explain the difference.
Mr. SENATOR. Well, if there was any and he heard about it, I am certain
he would probably yank him out. He didn’t go for that bit.
Mr. HUBERT. Something must have happened that leads you to that
opinion. What is it that leads you to that opinion that he would
certainly have done something about it?
Mr. SENATOR. I have heard him mention that he doesn’t want anybody
outside using any of his girls.
Mr. HUBERT. You yourself have heard him say that?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he don’t want any of his girls going out with
customers. He didn’t want the place to have a reputation such as that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he carry that policy to the point of supervising the
personal lives of his strippers and waitresses beyond the area of
relations with people who were in the club?
Mr. SENATOR. Beyond the area?
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you mentioned a moment ago that he didn’t
want any girls to have any dates or anything with any patrons of the
club or customers.
Mr. SENATOR. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now my next question is did he extend that policy of
supervision of what his girls did to their personal relations with
people who were not patrons of the club?
Mr. SENATOR. That I don’t know. I don’t know about that. I don’t know.
First of all there can never be controllability of that. After all,
where they are, that is their business, wherever they are, whether it
is day or night. This I can’t even answer you.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack sensitive about his religion?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us how you know that?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, he didn’t like the M.C.’s having any jokes about the
Jewish race, things of that nature. Now I have heard him say so to a
couple of M.C.’s already.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever talk to you personally about it, say anything
to you?
Mr. SENATOR. No; not particularly. I mean it has always been in the
open. I have even heard him say it right in the club. He don’t want any
Jewish jokes. He was sensitive this way.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think he was overly sensitive on the subject?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I don’t know, overly sensitive, but he was sensitive.
Mr. HUBERT. Is he more sensitive than other Jews that you have known?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say he is; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. With reference to his religion, did he practice it actively?
Mr. SENATOR. As far as going to church, synagogue?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. He went to church; he went to synagogue on holidays.
Mr. HUBERT. That is, Jewish holidays?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; always.
Mr. HUBERT. He wasn’t one who went regularly then to synagogue?
Mr. SENATOR. This I don’t know. I would have to leave this question
because I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you lived with him.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. During the time that you lived with him did he ever
indicate or did you gather that he was a regular churchgoer?
Mr. SENATOR. They go on Friday nights.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see any pattern of his going on Friday nights
regularly?
Mr. SENATOR. No, I have never seen a pattern of it. Now I don’t say
that he has or hasn’t been. Maybe he has at certain times and probably
not on other times. I don’t say this is every Friday night that
he goes, no. I wouldn’t say that. But he does make, you know, the
important holidays.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you consider him to be a religious man?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know how, to tell you the truth, I don’t know how
to break it down for you, how religious he is. Now we never went into
an aspect to talk about just how religious he is. All I can say is that
he observes as to holidays.
Mr. HUBERT. He never told you anything which would indicate that he was
either religious or not religious.
Mr. SENATOR. No. Well, I think he fasts on a certain type holiday.
He fasts, for this kind of fast it is really something, but he does
observe those things.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean not the regular Saturday fast?
Mr. SENATOR. No. This is the one time of the year you fast. You don’t
eat anything for 24 hours. I know he does that.
Mr. HUBERT. I think it is a good time for recess.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask one question here. Does he belong to any lay
organizations connected with any of the synagogues in town?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if he belonged to them or not. This I can’t
know. But I think he went—it was Temple Emanuel. I don’t know which one
he went to. I think it was Temple Emanuel.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To your knowledge, do you have any knowledge of his ever
participating in any activities, Jewish activities?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. B’nai B’rith?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say maybe in donations or something like
that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than giving money he didn’t belong to the
synagogue’s men’s clubs?
Mr. SENATOR. No, not to my knowledge.
Mr. HUBERT. Supposing we take a recess now until 2 o’clock.
(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the proceeding recessed.)