Mr. SENATOR. I only worked for them out of there. In other words, the
only time that I ever went there is when they had sales meetings, when
they called the people in for sales meetings.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were you living then?
Mr. SENATOR. In Miami.
Mr. HUBERT. That same residence?
Mr. SENATOR. Northwest Fourth Terrace?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your area, sales area?
Mr. SENATOR. Florida.
Mr. HUBERT. Just Florida?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You sold women’s apparel?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Wholesale?
Mr. SENATOR. Wholesalers. They were manufacturers.
Mr. HUBERT. I notice from these records, too, that apparently during
the years 1951, 1952, and 1953, your employer seems to alternate
between Smoler Bros., Inc., and Hartley’s, whose address is given as
144 East Flagler in Miami.
Mr. SENATOR. Hartley’s is a large—it almost looks like a department
store but it is not. It is a large specialty shop.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you working for both?
Mr. SENATOR. The only time I worked for Hartley’s was, I think it
was either one or two seasons. I don’t remember which. Just for the
Christmas holidays only.
Mr. HUBERT. When you did work for Hartley’s, did you leave Smoler’s?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, Smoler’s continued right on?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. In other words, I would probably say maybe a week or
something like that before the Christmas holidays I worked in there. I
would say approximately like that. Approximately a week or something
like that.
Mr. HUBERT. These records also indicate that actually you worked for
Smoler’s out of Chicago, wherever you actually lived or whatever your
territory might have been, until 1958; is that correct?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Smoler’s is the one who forced me to Texas.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that.
Mr. SENATOR. There were two men they were releasing in Dallas, Tex.,
and it happened to be I was in Atlanta, Ga., and it happened to be on a
Friday, I recall this very distinctly. My boss called me and I couldn’t
imagine what he was calling me for. He said, “George, we are releasing
a couple of men and we want you to go to Dallas.” And I didn’t want to
go. But he said, “You are going.” So I wound up in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. When was that? I know you said is was a Friday, but do you
remember the year, the month?
Mr. SENATOR. No. Oh, wait; yes. It was 10 years ago.
Mr. HUBERT. 1954?
Mr. SENATOR. Because I have been there—come next month, it will be 10
years I have been there.
Mr. HUBERT. So the telephone conversation on Friday would have been in
May of 1954, on a Friday?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Actually, May 15, I think you said.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I think I arrived in Dallas, I think it was May 15.
Mr. HUBERT. Did your wife go with you?
Mr. SENATOR. No; she wouldn’t go.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you been living together up to that time?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that the cause of your separation?
Mr. SENATOR. I believe that is.
Mr. HUBERT. She never did go to Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. No; she wouldn’t go, and I had a job to hold down.
Mr. HUBERT. She kept the child?
Mr. SENATOR. She kept the child.
Mr. HUBERT. And still has it?
Mr. SENATOR. And still has it, and, of course, there could have been
a possibility if I didn’t go—I only say possibility—that I could have
been released from my job. This, I only say, there could have been a
possibility.
Mr. HUBERT. Now tell us what you did then in Dallas. You continued to
work, I take it, for Smoler’s?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live? Can you give us a list of the various
places where you lived?
Mr. SENATOR. The first year I was just living, you know, in motels,
from one place, you know, wherever I was, because I was traveling the
State of Texas.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your territory there?
Mr. SENATOR. Texas.
Mr. HUBERT. The whole of Texas?
Mr. SENATOR. I started off the whole thing and then I wound down until
I probably wound up with just a corner of it. And when I wound up with
that there I said this is not for me, because I can’t make it on only
part of Texas.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, that comes a little later.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live in Dallas? Give us a list of your
various addresses just roughly.
Mr. SENATOR. The first place that I actually centrally located in, I
don’t remember the name of the place but I do remember the name of the
street.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. SENATOR. I could go to the place and know where it is but I can’t
think of the name of the place, which was on McKinney Avenue.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I would probably say, I’d have to guess, I
would probably say maybe 6 months to a year. I’m not sure now.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it an apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; it was an apartment.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you alone?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I was with a couple other boys.
Mr. HUBERT. Who were they?
Mr. SENATOR. One fellow by the name of George Guest. George Guest, he
was a, what do you call them, xylophones. He was a musician.
Mr. HUBERT. He played the instrument called the xylophone?
Mr. SENATOR. What is the one with the woods? It is not xylophone. What
is the one that is made out of wood?
Mr. HUBERT. Marimba?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, it is the marimba. Is the marimba made out of wood?
Mr. HUBERT. As a musical instrument?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. A percussion instrument?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did he work?
Mr. SENATOR. He played wherever he got engagements. He got booked
locally, out of town.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was the other one?
Mr. SENATOR. The other one who stayed with us a short while, his name
was Mort Seder.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he do?
Mr. SENATOR. He sells men’s apparel, traveling salesman.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you maintained contact with either of those?
Mr. SENATOR. George Guest got married many, many, years ago. The last I
heard that at that time he had moved to, I think it was Fort Lauderdale
by the sea.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the other one?
Mr. SENATOR. Seder I have seen, the last time I ran across Seder, of
course, he is always traveling, the last time I saw him was, I would
probably say in the last 2 months.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him often prior to that?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure. We lived together for a while. We lived together.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you lived together initially?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And then lived together after that?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes. Wait a minute, I’m trying to figure how we broke
up. Oh, yes, we lived together for a while but he wanted his own place.
He wanted to live alone. At that time he was not doing too well and he
couldn’t stand the pressure of having an apartment by himself, at that
time. So we lived together.
Mr. HUBERT. That was the first 6 months or so when you settled in that
place?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. It happened to be that we both almost got divorced
around the same time. He was living in Houston at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, so that accounts, I take it, for your residence
at the McKinney Street address.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that broke up?
Mr. SENATOR. No; from there it broke up and Seder and I moved to
another place.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was that?
Mr. SENATOR. That was on Shadyside Lane.
Mr. HUBERT. And how long did you live there?
Mr. SENATOR. This is another guess. I would probably say 6 months to a
year, with a guess again, something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. That is you and Seder?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; Seder.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go from there?
Mr. SENATOR. Columbia Avenue.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live there?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say we may have lived there maybe a
couple of years. I’m not sure now.
Mr. HUBERT. You were still with Seder then?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; and that is where he wanted to have his own place.
Mr. HUBERT. So he left you, as it were?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you remain at the Columbia Avenue address?
Mr. SENATOR. I remained there for a while.
Mr. HUBERT. And then what happened?
Mr. SENATOR. I remained there for a while and then he stayed there. I’m
trying to figure where I went from there.
Mr. HUBERT. After you left Seder, if you left the apartment in which
you were living with Seder at Columbia Avenue, do you recall whether
you then——
Mr. SENATOR. I stayed there for a while.
Mr. HUBERT. You stayed there for a while alone?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I had my own place.
Mr. HUBERT. When you moved next, did you move in with somebody else or
were you alone?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I moved in with somebody else. I’m trying to think
where, though.
Mr. HUBERT. It might help if you remember who it was that you lived
with?
Mr. SENATOR. I think I moved to the Oasis.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that an apartment house?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; these are all apartment houses—the various places.
They have all been apartment houses. That was on Live Oak. I believe
that is where I moved next.
Mr. HUBERT. Whom did you share that apartment with?
Mr. SENATOR. I stayed there with two other boys, Ronnie Unger and
Kenny—I can’t think of his last name.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live there?
Mr. SENATOR. Pardon me?
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live there?
Mr. SENATOR. Let me get to this first, please. After I moved, when I
moved in with them, the thing I was trying to figure out before I got
there, now I got through with Smoler Brothers and I can’t think of what
year. Do you have a listing of it?
Mr. HUBERT. Our records indicate you last worked for Smoler’s, or
rather, that there is no more income reported from Smoler’s after July
of 1958.
Mr. SENATOR. That is probably when I got through, in 1958. That is when
I got through with Smoler’s, in 1958. I don’t remember when I was with
Smoler’s that I was still living at Columbia Avenue or not. I may have
been living there yet. I don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, we have the sequence of your addresses and the last
place was at the Oasis.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, from Oasis where did you go to live?
Mr. SENATOR. Where I moved to?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. From the Oasis I think, I’m not sure now but I think from
the Oasis, I think I went on the road for 9 months and just lived all
over, if I recall right.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you working with Smoler’s then?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I’m not sure I went from the Oasis. I don’t remember
if I——
Mr. HUBERT. Let’s see if this will assist your memory. The social
security reports indicate that after the second quarter of 1958, which
would mean after July of 1958, you reported no income or no earnings
were reported, put it that way, for the last half of 1958, for all of
1959, for all of 1960, and for all of 1961. Now, can you tell us what
you were doing and where you were living for those 3½ years, starting
from July of 1958 until apparently——
Mr. SENATOR. July of 1958?
Mr. HUBERT. July of 1958 until apparently the beginning of 1962, when
you were employed by the Volume Sales Co. and Merchandise Mart, Dallas.
That is 3½ years there and I would like to know just what you were
doing and where you were living?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don’t know if I can put them all together right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do the best you can.
Mr. SENATOR. Now, when I was still living on Columbia Avenue, I don’t
remember if I was still with Smoler’s then.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case you moved to the Oasis?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I moved to the Oasis.
Mr. HUBERT. From the Oasis and after you left Smoler’s whenever it was,
you got on the road.
Mr. SENATOR. Wait; after I left Smoler’s, I had a couple of odd jobs
traveling which did not mean too much because they were not top lines
and moneywise there was no money to really be made. These were odds,
and then I finally got back with Rhea again.
Mr. HUBERT. R-h-e-a?
Mr. SENATOR. R-h-e-a. Rhea Manufacturing.
Mr. HUBERT. Milwaukee?
Mr. SENATOR. Milwaukee. I got back with Rhea again, I don’t remember
what year. But anyhow, in between that I would almost say there could
be a span with a rough guess approximately about a year and a half I
was unemployed.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you manage to sustain yourself by way of paying
normal expenses?
Mr. SENATOR. I was cooking for the boys and doing odd things for them.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you living in Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure.
Mr. HUBERT. All that period?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, during the period we are talking about, the
3½ years from July of 1958 until January of 1962, you never did change
your residence from Dallas, even though you might be traveling?
Mr. SENATOR. January of 1962.
Mr. HUBERT. Let’s get this part settled. From the time you left
Smoler’s, you were definitely living in Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever actually establish a residence of a permanent
nature other than in Dallas any place else?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. So that even though you were traveling during those years,
doing odd jobs or for Rhea’s, you always lived in Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; wait, there was one time, excuse me, I was staying
with a friend of mine in Houston. There was one time, I remember that.
Mr. HUBERT. How long ago?
Mr. SENATOR. But actually, that still wasn’t a permanent residence
because I was traveling with this guy because I was unemployed and I
used to help him.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is he?
Mr. SENATOR. His name is George Hamrah.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you spell it?
Mr. SENATOR. H-a-m-r-a-h.
Mr. HUBERT. He still lives in Houston?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he still lives in Houston.
Mr. HUBERT. So aside from that period that you are talking about, you
always lived in Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you bring us forward then as to your residence from the
Oasis on?
Mr. SENATOR. From the Oasis I believe now, I believe from the Oasis I
went to Jack Ruby’s, if I am not mistaken. I think I moved in with Jack.
Wait, I’ll tell you when I moved in with Jack. It was in February or
March, I’m not sure now, of 1962.
Mr. HUBERT. And you think that you were in the Oasis in the interval.
Mr. SENATOR. No, no; wait, wait. Before I moved in, excuse me, yes,
I moved in with Jack from the Oasis. Now I lived in three different
places in the Oasis with different boys because I was unemployed.
Mr. HUBERT. We are not particularly interested in the apartment numbers
in the Oasis.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But we are in the names of the people that you lived with
at the Oasis.