Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t ask you—he told you?
Mr. PAUL. No; he told me.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention he thought that the death of the President
would hurt business in the Dallas area and therefore hurt his business?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. He did not?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did that conversation last—about?
Mr. PAUL. Three or 4 minutes—he says, “It’s a terrible, terrible
thing.” Then, when I got back to the place in the evening he called me.
Mr. HUBERT. That was about what time?
Mr. PAUL. Well, I came back at 5 and I think he called me at 6.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where he was then?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir; he says, “It’s such a terrible thing that I’m going
to go to synagogue.” He says, “Do you want to come along?” I says,
“No; I don’t go to the synagogue, I’m not going to make a fool out of
myself.”
Mr. HUBERT. Did he go to the synagogue?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he go often?
Mr. PAUL. For a year he went every—should I say—every day.
Mr. HUBERT. That was after his father’s death?
Mr. PAUL. That was after his father died—yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s part of the Jewish religion that you should do that?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; that’s true.
Mr. HUBERT. And he followed that?
Mr. PAUL. He followed that very closely.
Mr. HUBERT. After that, did he go very much?
Mr. PAUL. No; once in a while on holidays—he made it a habit of going
on holidays to the synagogue.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s the Jewish holidays?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But he didn’t go every week?
Mr. PAUL. No—no.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it a surprise to you that he would be going to the
synagogue?
Mr. PAUL. To tell you the truth, I didn’t—anything Jack does is no
surprise to me.
Mr. HUBERT. I’m sorry (addressing the reporter) I didn’t get that, did
you get that?
The REPORTER. “To tell you the truth, anything Jack does is no surprise
to me.”
Mr. HUBERT. But it was not his normal custom?
Mr. PAUL. No; but he says he’s going to pray because a thing like that
happened.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, that, you think, was about what time?
Mr. PAUL. About 6 o’clock in the evening.
Mr. HUBERT. And that conversation was just a matter of a few minutes,
too?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you hear from him next?
Mr. PAUL. I don’t know whether it was that night again, after he
got out of synagogue—I can’t recall. But, he didn’t call me again—I
know—until Saturday night, or until Saturday afternoon, and he said,
“Did you see my ad in the paper?” I says, “What paper?” Well, Saturday
is a pretty bad paper, and I said, “What paper?” He says, “In the Times
Herald and the News.” I said, “What did you put?” He said, “That
I’m closing down for 3 days.” I said, “That’s what you said to me
yesterday.” He said, “But, it’s in the paper.” I said, “All right, I
believe you.”
Mr. HUBERT. You think that was Saturday afternoon?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You had not spoken to him or seen him since the night
before?
Mr. PAUL. No—I didn’t see him—no; when I saw him was Thursday night.
Mr. HUBERT. You were at the club then?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; then he called me Saturday when I got home.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that?
Mr. PAUL. Well, I didn’t feel too good that night, and I left home—I
generally work until 1 o’clock in the morning. I left at 11 o’clock
and he said he called the place and they told him I went home and they
told him I didn’t feel well, and he says, “What’s wrong with you?” And
I says, “I’ve got a cold,” and then he told me that he was downtown and
that nobody was doing any business, so I says to him, “Well, if nobody
is doing any business, I guess you had better close.”
Mr. HUBERT. And what did he say to that?
Mr. PAUL. Then he called me back one more time—I didn’t give you this
before because I didn’t—then he called me back one more time and told
me that he was over at his sister’s house, Eva’s house, and Eva was
crying and they are both crying.
Mr. HUBERT. This was Saturday night?
Mr. PAUL. This was Saturday night—that was late. I said, “Jack, I don’t
feel good. Let me go to sleep.”
Mr. HUBERT. How long after the first call on Saturday night did the
second call come?
Mr. PAUL. The first call come, I think, was 9:30 or 10 o’clock, and the
second call I think was about 11:30.
Mr. HUBERT. You had left at what time?
Mr. PAUL. I left the place about 9 o’clock.
Mr. HUBERT. Because of your feeling ill?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And he reached you shortly after you got there?
Mr. PAUL. No, it was about an hour or so later.
Mr. HUBERT. You were in bed already?
Mr. PAUL. I was in bed already—that was the last time I spoke to him, I
says, “Jack, let me go to sleep because I don’t feel well.”
Mr. HUBERT. That was on the second call?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So, the second call was at what time?
Mr. PAUL. About 11 or 11:30.
Mr. HUBERT. The first call was about 9:30?
Mr. PAUL. No; about 10:30.
Mr. HUBERT. About 10:30, and the second call about an hour after?
Mr. PAUL. No; I left the place, but it just takes me about 15 or 20
minutes to get home, and I doctored myself up with some hot tea and so
forth—it must have taken about another half hour, so it must have been
about 10:30.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, on the first call—he had called your place
and found out you were not feeling well?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; he called me and I told him I wasn’t feeling well and he
told me that nobody downtown was doing any business.
Mr. HUBERT. And then you told him he ought to be glad he stopped,
because if nobody was doing any business he might as well be closed,
and that was about the subject of that conversation?
Mr. PAUL. That’s—that was that conversation. That’s the subject, and
then he called me back and he told me he was over at his sister’s house
and his sister was crying and he was crying with her on account of the
President, and that’s the last I spoke to him.
Mr. HUBERT. You could hear her crying or he told you?
Mr. PAUL. He just told me.
Mr. HUBERT. What about his own crying, could you tell that he was
crying, did he seem to be crying?
Mr. PAUL. No; he wasn’t crying then when he spoke to me.
Mr. HUBERT. He wasn’t crying then—in other words, what he was telling
you was that he and his sister had been crying?
Mr. PAUL. Had been crying.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that all he wanted to tell you?
Mr. PAUL. That’s all.
Mr. HUBERT. And you in effect told him you were sick and not to bother
you any more, would that be about it?
Mr. PAUL. And I went to sleep and that’s the last I talked to him.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, when was your next contact with Jack?
Mr. PAUL. When he was in jail.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you hear about the Oswald matter?
Mr. PAUL. Sunday morning—I was—I had just finished making out the
payroll.
Mr. HUBERT. At the Bull Pen?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; when John Jackson, my manager, called and the girl
answered the phone and she says—he says, “Oswald is shot.”
Mr. HUBERT. He said that to you?
Mr. PAUL. To the girl, and the girl relayed it to me. Just, “Oswald was
shot,” so I looked up and I says, “So what?” I mean—just the regular
coincidence. “So what?” 5 minutes later a fellow that lived around the
corner that knew me—he used to work at the Sky Club years ago, named
Howard something, came in and says, “Jack Ruby shot Oswald.”
Mr. HUBERT. That was in the Bull Pen at Arlington?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What was that man’s name?
Mr. PAUL. Howard something.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s his first name?
Mr. PAUL. Howard is his first name—I can’t think of the second
name—he’s just a customer there—he used to work a long time ago at the
Sky Club—I think he was—he used to be their cabinet man there, so I
says, “Go away.” I says, “Wait, I’ll call the house.” So, I called the
house and nobody answered.
Mr. HUBERT. You called Jack’s house?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; I called Jack’s house and nobody answered, so Jackson
and his wife came in and said, “Yes, we just saw it on TV that Jack
Ruby shot Oswald.” So, I says, “All right”—that’s when I called Tom
Howard.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time was it you called Howard, do you know?
Mr. PAUL. I would say it was about in between 11:30 and 12 o’clock.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, between 10 minutes or 15 minutes after the
shooting, to 30 to 40 minutes after the shooting?
Mr. PAUL. Well, you know—shooting—we didn’t think he killed him.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I understand.
Mr. PAUL. So, I says, “Tom,” well Tom has been my lawyer for the
longest time.
Mr. HUBERT. He has been your lawyer?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; and Jack’s too.
Mr. HUBERT. Jack’s too?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; and I says, “Tom, see what you could do for Jack. I
heard he shot Oswald.” He says, “Okay,” and that’s it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you that he was not aware that Oswald
had been shot?
Mr. PAUL. I don’t know whether he did or not.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you when you talked to him that he was
not aware that Ruby had shot him?
Mr. PAUL. No; I just told him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be surprised?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything to indicate he knew about it?
Mr. PAUL. No; he didn’t. He says, “Okay, I’ll take care of it.” Those
are the words he said.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you asked him to see what he could do and
without indicating whether he knew about it or not, as far as you could
tell, he says, “I’ll see what I can do.” And that was the end of the
conversation?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you make any appointment to meet him yourself?
Mr. PAUL. Who—Tom?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. PAUL. No; I went down to his office anyway.
Mr. HUBERT. So, you were at the Bull Pen at that conversation and you
went where?
Mr. PAUL. Downtown.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go?
Mr. PAUL. I went to the—John and I and the girl went down to the police
station and I saw Tom Howard there.
Mr. HUBERT. Inside the station?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Whereabouts was it, do you know?
Mr. PAUL. It was right off the entrance to the—as you walk in—do you
know where the entrance is when you walk in?
Mr. HUBERT. From Harwood Street?
Mr. PAUL. What?
Mr. HUBERT. On Harwood Street?
Mr. PAUL. No; it’s on Commerce.
Mr. HUBERT. Not the basement ramp?
Mr. PAUL. The basement ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. You went through the basement ramp?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What time was that, about?
Mr. PAUL. Maybe 1 o’clock, and so we meet him, and he says, “They won’t
let you see him anyway, you had better go over and stay at the office.
I think it’s on television.” So we walked over to his office and we
watched television until about 3 o’clock.
Mr. HUBERT. That was Jackson and you and Howard?
Mr. PAUL. No; not Howard—a girl Tammi True.
Mr. HUBERT. Tammi True and you went to Howard’s office?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And Howard was there?
Mr. PAUL. No; I was in the courthouse—he sent us over there.
Mr. HUBERT. Howard sent you to his office to watch television?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; to watch television.
Mr. HUBERT. And he went where, do you know?
Mr. PAUL. I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what he did?
Mr. PAUL. No; he—some more lawyers they all got together and then they
left again and they came back again and riding into town, that’s when
we heard that Oswald was dead—died.
Mr. HUBERT. When you got to Howard’s office, you knew he had died?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Howard tell you he had tried to get a writ of habeas
corpus for Ruby?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And what happened to that proceeding, do you know?
Mr. PAUL. I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. So you stayed there, you said, until about when?
Mr. PAUL. 3 o’clock.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is Tammi True?
Mr. PAUL. That’s one of the girls that worked at the club before—she
was an entertainer.
Mr. HUBERT. Was she at the Bull Pen?
Mr. PAUL. No; she lives in Fort Worth.
Mr. HUBERT. How did she come to be riding with you and Jackson?
Mr. PAUL. She came up to the Bull Pen when she heard about Jack Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you drive in her car?
Mr. PAUL. No; in Jackson’s car.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when she heard it at her home in Fort
Worth, she came to your place and the three of you came downtown and
stayed until 3 o’clock?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened?
Mr. PAUL. I went back—went back home.
Mr. HUBERT. The three of you?
Mr. PAUL. No; I went as far as—we took Tammi back and then I let
Jackson off and I went back to Dallas and went to the movies.
Mr. HUBERT. You took Tammi back to Fort Worth?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And then came back to Arlington?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And left off Jackson?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; and I went back to the movies, because when I came in,
I says, “Anybody looking for me,” to the cashier, and she says, “A
reporter and a photographer was calling you.”
Mr. HUBERT. That was at the Bull Pen?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So, you drove in your car alone and you went to the movies
and I think you said you went to the Majestic?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you get there?
Mr. PAUL. I got there about 4:30.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you park your car some place?
Mr. PAUL. I parked it on the lot. You see, Sunday, you don’t have to
have no parking.
Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed in the Majestic and watched the show?
Mr. PAUL. I stayed there about an hour—I wasn’t interested too much in
the show, I just wanted to get away from everything.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you come out of the show?
Mr. PAUL. It must have been about, oh, 6 something—I went back and I
went to Jackson’s house.
Mr. HUBERT. You went into the show about what time—4:30, you think?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed there until about 6, when you came out,
about an hour and a half?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, what did you do?
Mr. PAUL. I went back and went over to Jackson’s house.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s on what street and where?
Mr. PAUL. That’s where I’m living now—Browning Street.
Mr. HUBERT. And you went to his house—go ahead?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; and stayed there about an hour or so.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was there with you?
Mr. PAUL. The girls.
Mr. HUBERT. What girls?
Mr. PAUL. Jackson’s girls.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean his daughters?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; two girls; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was just the three of you?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; they made me something to eat.
Mr. HUBERT. And you got there about what time?
Mr. PAUL. Then, I called the place and Jackson told me that the FBI was
looking for me and I kept on wondering what they wanted with me, and so
we stayed over there, and then his sister had had a little gathering
over at her house.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean Eva?
Mr. PAUL. No; Jackson’s sister, so we went over there.
Mr. HUBERT. Her name is Mrs. Gable?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; we had some ice cream and John walked in with the two
FBI men; that was 9 o’clock.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Mrs. Bowman?
Mr. PAUL. Mrs. Bowman?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. PAUL. Sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is she?
Mr. PAUL. She’s my ex-partner’s wife.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you living with her at that time?
Mr. PAUL. We were living together in a big house.
Mr. HUBERT. On that date?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; that’s way out in the country.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see her that day?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Not at all?
Mr. PAUL. I don’t think I did—I might have seen her when I left the
house.
Mr. HUBERT. And what time would that have been?
Mr. PAUL. Oh, in the morning.
Mr. HUBERT. But you didn’t see her after Oswald was shot?
Mr. PAUL. I don’t think so—I don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go back to the house after Oswald was shot?
Mr. PAUL. I think I went from the movies to the house and changed
clothes—that’s what I think I did, and then went over to Jackson’s
house.
Mr. HUBERT. When was it that you decided to take over the operation of
the club?
Mr. PAUL. That Monday after the shooting.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack ask you to do so?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir; I didn’t see Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Eva ask you to do so?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, why did you do it?
Mr. PAUL. Personally, I don’t know—I just did it on the spur of the
moment, and I have been sorry every day after that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask Jack, or send word to him that you were going
to do this?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask—well, weren’t you interested in salvaging some
of the debt that was owed to you if you could?
Mr. PAUL. If I could.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s what I meant—that was why you did it?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; but I saw what I was getting into—it turned out to be a
lemon.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, it turned out, as you say, to be a lemon, but your
motive was to see if you could operate it to see if anything could be
made out of it, to see if you could recover some of the debt that was
owed to you?
Mr. PAUL. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. And at the same time, I suppose, if you could make the
thing a success—whatever Jack’s interest was, it would be helpful to
him, too?
Is that a fair statement of what was running in your mind?