Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you say you don’t recall, that is not the same
as saying that she didn’t come in?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that you would not make the statement, or would
you, that she didn’t come in?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would not make that statement.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about as to any of the other girls—Joy Dale, for
example?
Mr. CRAFARD. I wouldn’t make the statement of the fact that none of
them came into the club. I would say it was possible that any of them
came into the club, but I don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if any of them had stayed for any length of time, 5,
10 minutes, or more, do you think you would have remembered it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you don’t recall anybody coming in and staying as long
as 10 minutes?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. When Jack came in and you people sat out at the
front of the club, how far were you seated from the telephones?
Mr. CRAFARD. We was right beside the telephone.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the one near the door?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You would have been, then, about 10 feet away from the one
at the bar?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you sat there with Jack, did you all sort of keep
your ears glued to the radio, or was there a general conversation?
Mr. CRAFARD. We was talking. We had the radio up loud enough so we
could hear, but we was talking.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There was a continuous conversation, or were there long
pauses in the conversation?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall. I don’t remember. We might have stopped,
we might just sat there 10 or 15 minutes at a time; I don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How long did Jack stay there with you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember. It seems to me he was there probably a
couple of hours.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You think Jack was there a couple of hours with you in the
club?
Mr. CRAFARD. He might have been; yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, while Jack was there, did you ever go back into his
office and watch television?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe we did; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of how long you remained with
Jack in his office watching television?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or how long it was after he came in that you went into his
office to watch television?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. It seems to me like it wasn’t very long after he came
before we went back into the office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of talking with Jack about
the dog that you were going to send to California?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not on that day, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you had talked about that, would you remember it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I would have, I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Certainly the knowledge that the suspected killer of the
President of the United States had been in the Carousel where you
worked would have come to you as a pretty heavy shock; isn’t that a
fair statement?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I suggest to you, then, that you can remember just when
that shock hit you.
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact, Larry, that you can tell us whether it
came from Armstrong definitely or that you just picked it up on one
of these rides later on because, as I say, it had to hit you and you
admitted it was a shock.
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether you were alone with the person who
told it to you, or was anybody else present?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember that, either, sir. Most of that day is
very vague in my mind.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your best guess—that Andy Armstrong told you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, if it had come from Andy Armstrong, it would
have made more of an impression on you than if it had come from some
person who had heard it as a rumor or over the radio, wouldn’t it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, putting your mind to it in that way, can’t you help us
a bit more as to who actually told you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I can’t. I have thought about it. I can’t recall
exactly who it was or exactly where it was I heard it. I believe it was
before I left Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. And if it was before you left Dallas, you already told us
it had to be Armstrong?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I come to, in effect, the question I asked you this
morning, Larry. I don’t want you to feel bound by what you said at
another time unless it was the truth.
Mr. CRAFARD. I realize that.
Mr. HUBERT. I suggest to you that the real motivation for leaving
Dallas was that you had found out that Oswald had been in the club, and
that the matter was getting a little too thick for you and you wanted
out of it.
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That is not true?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; that is not true.
Mr. HUBERT. You say that is not true even if it is possible that
Armstrong told you that Oswald had been in the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. If that is the case it was a subconscious
thought. It wasn’t conscious to where I would remember it. It would
have been a subconscious thought that it was the case.
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t understand you when you say it was a subconscious
thought.
Mr. CRAFARD. Just that. It wouldn’t have been something that I thought
about for any period of time. It would have been something that I
had heard it and it just, I didn’t even think about it, and then
subconsciously that could have something to do with my leaving, but on
a conscious level I will say no.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you recall discussing it with this person who told
you, in any way, so that you ascertained from the person how they knew?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Had it been Armstrong wouldn’t you have asked him, “Well,
how do you know that, Andy? When did you see him? Where did you see
him? Who was he with?” You would have asked those questions, wouldn’t
you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would have asked him how he knew for sure.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t recall asking the person who told you that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall; no.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, if you had heard that from some of the people
that you had been riding with it would have had to be after Ruby had
shot Oswald, wouldn’t it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it seems so. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have known about
Ruby being involved with him.
Mr. HUBERT. That is correct. But you didn’t find out about Ruby being
involved until Monday morning.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, it had to be after that so far as you are
concerned?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, if I wasn’t in Dallas. I believe that I
heard the statement before I left Dallas on the 23d.
Mr. HUBERT. That being the case, unless you want to tell us some other
things, it had to be Armstrong.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. That is all I can—I can’t say for sure who
it was, and I can’t even say for sure that I heard the statement before
I left Dallas. But I believe that it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall when it was that you first began to think
about this statement?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with the people in Michigan, your relatives
in Michigan about it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember, sir. I might have, with my sister, but I
don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You told me, I believe, in the automobile that you had not
been aware until I mentioned it to you in the car that Bill DeMar had
made the statement that he saw Oswald in the club.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think, if someone had told you, one of your
relatives or somebody like that had told you, one of Ruby’s performers
or somebody who worked for Ruby had said that he saw Oswald there, do
you think you would have remembered that kind of information being
conveyed to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I might have remembered something about the fact that one
of them had said, that one of his employees had said, that Oswald had
been there; but I wouldn’t necessarily remember who it was who had said
it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if somebody said to you one of Ruby’s entertainers
claims he saw Oswald in the club, what would your reaction have been?