DISCUSSION

DR. MORTON PRINCE, Boston: I sympathize with Dr. Putnam in his interest in

philosophical problems, my only conflict with his point of view being with

what I conceive to be a mixing of problems. I suppose that if we want an

explanation of the universe it must be in terms of philosophy or

metaphysics. The only alternative is to accept it as a phenomenal universe,

as it is. You will remember that when it was reported to Carlisle that

Margaret Fuller said she "accepted the universe," he replied "Gad! I think

she had better!". So we have got either to explain the universe in terms of

philosophy or accept it as it is.

I have no objection to introducing philosophical problems if we do not

confuse those problems with our psychological problems. They are entirely

distinct. This distinction between philosophy and science the physicists

and chemists clearly recognize. One of their problems is the ultimate nature

of matter, but it is not a problem of practical physics and chemistry. These

deal, let us say, with phenomenal atoms and molecules, with their

attractions and repulsions, etc. In dealing with the problem of the

ultimate nature of matter the chemist analyzes matter and finds that it can

be reduced to atoms, and then analyzes the atoms and finds them composed of

electrons flying about within the circumscribed space of an atom. Then he

analyzes the electron and reduces it to negative electricity, and when asked

what negative electricity is he says it is a form of the energy of the

universe, and stops there and says--"I don't know," when asked to explain

energy.

Here the problem of the ultimate nature of matter becomes a question of

philosophy and metaphysics. It is a field of research by itself. The

chemist never confuses that problem with the specific problems of his

particular science. These deal with empirical atoms and molecules as he

finds them. No chemist would undertake to give the chemical formula of the

union of sulphuric acid and zinc by a formula which expressed the ultimate

nature of atoms or negative electricity. If he did so he would confuse his

problems. And so I think we confuse our problems when we attempt to explain

empirical psychological phenomena in philosophical or ultimate terms. We

must treat our psychological elements--ideas, wishes, emotions, etc,--as the

chemist treats atoms and molecules. But, just as the latter may take up

ultimate problems as a special field of investigation so may we do, if we

like, but we must not treat them as psychological problems.

This confusion of problems is, I think, the fundamental error of Jung and

others in treating of the libido when he and they attempt to explain

specific phenomena as empirically observed. Jung undertakes to resolve

libido into the energy of the universe. Of course this is possible. All

forces can be ultimately so resolved, including the forces of mind and body.

Emotions such as anger and fear are forces and each of these forces, with

great probability, can be reduced in the ultimate analysis to a form of

energy. But this is not to admit that we are justified in explaining

specific concrete psychological phenomena, with which we are dealing, in

philosophical terms. We must explain them in terms of the phenomena

themselves. As a monist and pan-psychist, for example, I may believe that

conscious processes can be reduced to, or be identified with the ultimate

nature of matter, the thing-in-itself. And conversely atoms and electrons

may be reduced to a force which may be identified with psychic force, but I

would not attempt to explain psychological behaviour in terms of such a

philosophical concept but only through phenomenal psychological forces, let

us say, wishes. In other words, I would not undertake to introduce

pan-psychism into the problem at all as an explanation of a particular

phobia. I think, therefore, that when Jung and others attempt to explain

phobias and other psychological phenomena through a philosophical concept of

the libido as analyzed into an elan vitale or the energy of the universe,

they not only confuse their problems but introduce such a mixing up of terms

that the resulting explanation becomes little more than nonsense. The

libido, whatever it may be, must be treated as a psychophysiological force

just like any of the other emotions. Otherwise psychology ceases to be a

science.

Now one word about conflicts. Undoubtedly conflicts play a most important

part in such psychological disturbances as we have to deal with in the

psycho-neuroses, but I cannot agree that psychological conflicts conform

only to, or are synonymous with ethical conflicts. Undoubtedly there are a

large number of conflicts between ideas and sentiments which we have all

agreed to label as ethical, but there are also a large number of conflicts

between sentiments which cannot be pigeon-holed as ethical. For example, the

mother whose child is threatened with danger and who herself would incur

danger in rescuing her child, undergoes a conflict between her fear

instinct, on the one hand, and her love on the other, exciting also her

anger emotion. The anger and love conflict with the fear, down and repress

it. There you have a conflict but I think it could not be classed as an

ethical conflict. It is a general law, whenever one instinct antagonizes

another instinct there is a conflict. It is a conflict which has its

prototype in the lower organic processes. Thus Sherrington's spinal

reflexes, that he has worked out so beautifully, involve conflicts between

opposing organic impulses. In the scratch reflex, for instance, the impulse

which excites the flexor muscles inhibits the excitation of the extensor

muscles. I believe this principle underlies the higher processes and upon it

is built up the whole of the psycho-physiological mechanisms.

DR. TOM A. WILLIAMS, Washington, D. C.: I want Dr. Putnam to reply to two

objections to his position. One, the manifestations of functional

capacities which are themselves dependent upon structural differences. I am

not talking now of psychogenetic determinants, but alone of the trends of

which Dr. Putnam has spoken. Is he not assuming the contrary to Darwin when

he says that function precedes structure? Are not the potentials dependent

upon the variation which has determined this function? I am speaking now in

the broadest possible terms and not confining myself to the cerebrum. Do we

not find it in the tadpole who is prepared for breathing not because he

wants to breathe, but because he is going to have a new kind of breathing

apparatus and the duck who takes to the water because he has the mechanism

to swim?

Two, in regard to Hegel and the appeal to the ethical as being of a

different type from the motive of biological satisfaction. Is not that

difficulty only apparent, and is it not answered by Dr. Putnam's own appeal

that these matters should be settled independently, and is not it the case

that the average sexual man would settle it very differently from Dr. Putnam

himself and most of us; and is not it true that, though the ethical

determinants of behaviour are not auspicious for the average sexual

satisfactions of man, yet are they not themselves forms of hedonistic

satisfactions? For a man who would behave unethically would be miserable in

doing so by the loss of his own self-respect. So that he already has a

hedonistic determinant for his own conduct which is in harmony with the

biological concepts of Aristotle.

DR. JAMES J. PUTNAM, Boston: I should be very sorry to be taken as wishing

to put myself in the sort of adverse position which Dr. Prince and Dr.

Williams believe me to assume. I accept, of course, the proposition that

there are conflicts which are not ethical, and, as Dr. Williams says, the

average man would naturally come to different conclusions from those of the

trained man in ethical matters. I want to make a slight movement towards

restoring a balance which it seemed to me had become tipped too far one way.

Psychoanalysts, for example, actually deal with metaphysics and yet they do

not really study out what this involves. If we were nothing but scientific

men we could say, "very well, let metaphysics go." But we are not. We are

dealing with individuals who are thrilling with desires, hopes and fears,

the movements of which cannot be expressed in scientific formulae. Dr.

Williams speaks of Darwin. It can be asserted with justice, however, that

the genetic method of investigation which is exemplified by Darwin's study

of evolution is an imperfect method for discovering the aims of human

beings. I refer to the interesting book of Prince Kropotkin in which he

studies mutual aid as a factor in evolution, mutual aid being something not

adequately contemplated by Darwin, who considers conflict as the essential

influence in evolution. Prof. Judd showed in a paper a few years ago the

change which has taken place in the attitude of a good many students of

economics through the introduction of human intelligence and desires as

something quite distinct from the conflicts of interests, and similar

arguments have been brought forward by students of evolution. Among others

Prof. Cope, the distinguished Zoologist of Philadelphia and Prof. Hyatt of

Boston, showed very clearly how the course of evolution becomes materially

changed when desires and will become prominent as factors. I agree that, as

a partial motive, structure does limit and determine function. There is no

question about that. I merely want to say that logically function precedes

structure, inasmuch as the wish and desire to do a thing precedes the means

by which we secure for ourselves the power to do it. But of course all

energies must work through structural media. In regard to hedonism, one must

recognize that pleasure counts as a partial motive, but when it comes to

taking it as the final motive it fails utterly. Our lives contain

determinants which we cannot range under the category of pleasure. We act in

certain ways because our structure and our functions and our wills are what

they are, and not exclusively by our temporary wishes. Our "meanings," when

thoroughly studied are found to coincide with the meaning of the universe as

a whole. It is only through getting hold of the entire scheme that you have

something that you can use as a criteria. The nearest approach to this is

obtained through the study of the most broadly developed, public spirited

men, and such men do not work in accordance with hedonistic principles.

President G. Stanley Hall, of Worcester, Mass., read a paper entitled, "The

Application of Freudian Mechanisms to Other Emotions."[*]

[*] Published in the June-July number, p. 81, of this Journal.

The Journal of Abnormal Psychology, Volume 10 · 第 80 / 162 题