Mr. HUBERT. Well, I mean did you observe him in a situation which
demonstrated the use of strength?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not really where it would be a real test of strength
or anything. I have never seen anything of that sort.
Mr. HUBERT. I was just wondering how you formed the impression that he
was a pretty strong man, considering his size.
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, for as heavy a man as he was, he was pretty solid
for one thing; he was fairly solid.
Mr. HUBERT. You could tell that by looking at him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I suppose you have seen him with his coat off or something.
Mr. CRAFARD. I saw him with just his pants and a T-shirt on, or an
undershirt and pants, on one occasion when I went to his house. He
shaved and he said something and I stepped over to the bathroom door;
I couldn’t hear. He repeated it and I stepped back and sat down and
watched television and then he went ahead and got cleaned up.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he carry a gun?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had one in the car. He very seldom carried it on his
person.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did he keep it in the car?
Mr. CRAFARD. Usually in the trunk; it was in a money pouch, a money
sack, which usually stayed in the trunk.
Mr. HUBERT. You say he didn’t carry it on his person?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see it on his person or know it was there in
some way?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; one night that I knew for sure it was there.
Mr. HUBERT. What night was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall the date, but something happened, and Jack
sent me down to the car to get the gun and bring it up to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there some trouble in the Carousel?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember whether it was right in the Carousel or
whether it was a phone call or what it was, really. There was something
there----
Mr. HUBERT. He told you something that indicated he ought to have the
gun, and he asked you to go get it?
Mr. CRAFARD. He sent me down after the gun.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he just simply send you down after the gun, or did he
tell you that there was something that had happened?
Mr. CRAFARD. He sent me down after the gun. Something happened right
there at the club. I can’t----
Mr. HUBERT. Was it some sort of a disturbance?
Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t recall just what it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this an incident that other people would have been
aware of; Andy Armstrong might have been aware of?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe Andy Armstrong was right there at the time. I
believe most any of the girls who worked for him were aware of it at
the time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did I misunderstand you? Did you say this incident where
you were sent for the gun was preceded by a phone call?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure. He had been on the phone and then he went
outside and then something happened at the club; he had an argument or
something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do after you brought the gun?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was right there and the club was closed and I didn’t
see him until the next day. He seemed pretty angry.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He didn’t try to throw anybody out?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was George Senator there at the time?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how close this incident was to the death of
the President?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was either a week before or the same week, earlier the
same week, that President Kennedy was assassinated.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it a weekday?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. It was during the week.
Mr. HUBERT. It was not on a weekend?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; it was during the week.
Mr. HUBERT. So it would have been sometime between the 17th, say, of
November and prior to the 22d, or it would have been sometime between
the 11th and the 15th of November; is that correct?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever noticed any incidents of Ruby that would
throw some light on whether he was a person who had a trait of kindness
or benevolence toward other people?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was quite kindhearted.
Mr. HUBERT. Give us an example of that.
Mr. CRAFARD. One example was the way he took me in. He had no reason
for doing it. He wasn’t obligated to do it in any way.
Mr. HUBERT. You think you earned your pay?
Mr. CRAFARD. What is that?
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you earned your pay?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think I earned everything I got.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you still think it was an act of kindness on his part to
take you in?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think he was doing me a favor, and still in all he was
getting some pretty cheap work, labor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ask him for the job or did he ask you?
Mr. CRAFARD. He asked me. And then I know of another occasion where I
was told about of this young fellow he took in didn’t do a thing around
the club and he had him around there for 3 or 4 months.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it seem to you that Jack felt it was important that he
have somebody at the club all the time?
Mr. CRAFARD. After I was there for a while he seemed to feel that way.
At first, when I first got to know him, he didn’t seem to feel that way.
Mr. HUBERT. This boy that had been there more or less doing the job
that you did, but was there prior to you; did you know this fellow?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn’t know him. I had heard--Andy had told me about
him.
Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact that you heard from Andy or otherwise there
had been some trouble between Ruby and that man?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was something said about trouble.
Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact that you heard that Ruby pistol-whipped him?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t recall of ever hearing that statement.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear that this boy was Jewish?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. I had no idea; no knowledge of him.
Mr. HUBERT. You never met him?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand that there came a time when you asked Jack to
put you on a different pay basis than you originally were.
Mr. CRAFARD. When I went to work it was on the understanding that I
eventually would be with him a Little while and then I would start
being on a salary.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you with him? Well, let me put it this way:
Did there come a time when you began to ask to be put on salary?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after?
Mr. CRAFARD. Because I felt that the way things were, I didn’t have
any private life of my own. He wanted to tell me what I could do, who
I could talk to, and who I couldn’t talk to if he put me on a salary
where I was maybe making $35 or $40 a week I could live on my own,
which I would much prefer to do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. $35 or $40 plus the opportunity to live at the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. As long as it was $35 or $40, period. I could live on my
own; for the work I done at the club, I could live on my own.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How long had you been with Jack before you
started to ask him about this?
Mr. CRAFARD. I probably had been with him about 4 or 5 weeks. That was
about 2 weeks before President Kennedy was assassinated.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack say when you mentioned that to him?
Mr. CRAFARD. He said he would see what he could do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you mean by that? What did you understand by that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, he said what he could do; he would figure his
bookwork out and see what he could do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remind him of the fact that he had told you that
at the beginning?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
(Whereupon, at 12:10 p.m., the proceeding recessed.)