Mrs. CHEEK. It is just an awful lot of trouble for me right now because
I am very busy and I have illness in my home. If I thought I could help
you, and really if there is anything there, I would bring them down
myself to you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I would like to do this in a way that would be least
inconvenient.
Mrs. CHEEK. But I don’t know Oswald and I just knew Jack Ruby when he
asked me to invest $6,000 and I didn’t do it. I didn’t like the way he
wanted me to invest. He wanted to put in $1,000, and me $6,000.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What would be the least inconvenient way to do this? If
perhaps all the books are in one place, we could get the books from
January 1, 1959, on to the present and photocopy them in a day and then
return them to you. Would that be convenient?
Mrs. CHEEK. I have them stored, is the only thing. I have a lot of
things in front, and it is difficult in digging it out, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I suppose really--is there going to be anytime in the next
week or so that would be more convenient for you than any other time?
Mrs. CHEEK. I really don’t know of anything else. My daughter has
cancer. She may be well and she may not be, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this. Would you retain these records, and
sometime during the next month, let me ask one of the agents to contact
you again in connection with getting copies of them for us, and you
could work out at that time what would be most convenient to you. If
you don’t like it that way, then suggest it some other way, because I
want to do this some way that would be least inconvenient to you.
Mrs. CHEEK. Well, you are welcome to come to see them again as far as
that is concerned, but I don’t want to let them go out of my hands. I
am not going to let them go from me, because if some of those things
are missing, it is my fault. The men can come out there any time and
look them over if they want to look them over and take pictures or
whatever they may want to do, or copy them all off. They can come out
there and just copy every name that I have ever had or ever rented to
from the time of 1947, if they would like.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If this were done at your home, that would be the best so
far as you are concerned?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; I will have to go get them. I never have moved them
from Swiss Avenue, and they are in the storage house. I will have to go
over and get them and bring them over to Hillcrest.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many different boxes are we talking about?
Mrs. CHEEK. Everything I have ever owned, I guess is what I was going
to give you. That is what I did before. Every record I have, every name
that I ever rented to, I give it to the men that was out there and you
may have them now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am sure we don’t want to go back that far. Well, let me
see what we can work out, with the Secret Service or the Bureau, and
then I will either contact you myself about it or I will ask someone
of the agents to do it, and I think it could be done fairly simply.
I know in the past that photographers can set the camera on a kitchen
table and run these things through. I take it then when Jack Ruby
contacted you in connection with buying out a part of the Carousel
Club, that he got your name from somebody?
Mrs. CHEEK. I was looking at a piece of property over on Maple Avenue
when Olen Alexander or Bob Shockley, two more agents called me about
buying the place myself. I went over to look at the building and they
asked me what would go in the building, and I think a nice nightclub,
it is in the neighborhood like it would, so I guess they gave it to
Jack Ruby because when I mentioned the nightclub, because I said I
might even invest in it myself, I was so sold on it, so Jack Ruby
called me and asked me if I would invest in it. Not this particular
piece of property. He didn’t tell me where he had this location, but I
just know that that was how he got my name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are we talking about your most recent discussion with
Jack or the first one?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s talk about the first time you contacted Jack.
Mrs. CHEEK. He had it for sale.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He had the Carousel for sale?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; and I had someone that was interested in a night club,
so I went down to see about it, see how much he would sell it for, and
he said $12,500. I said that was too much. My conversation was very
short, and I left.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, you met him at the Carousel?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody with him at that time? Anybody else at this
meeting?
Mrs. CHEEK. There was activity all in there. I don’t know who the
people were.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody accompany you in connection with this?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; I think Mrs. Davidson went down with me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Davidson? What is her first name?
Mrs. CHEEK. Lula B. Davidson.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does she live here in Dallas?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where does she live?
Mrs. CHEEK. Over on Normandy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is she in the real estate business?
Mrs. CHEEK. No. She was a schoolteacher of mine. Just happened to be at
the house when I started to go down, and I asked her if she would like
to go. She taught me in school in Tyler, Tex. I don’t think that she
would remember too much about it, because it was such a--just went down
with me. It wasn’t a real big issue made, and I said, “Would you like
to go with me to see about a nightclub,” and she said, “Yes; I would.”
So I just walked up and talked to Jack Ruby and asked him how much he
wanted for the club’s half interest, and he said $12,500, and I left
because I didn’t think it was worth it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Jack had an advertisement in the newspaper about this?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; he did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you first called Jack, what did he tell you when
you talked to him over the telephone that time?
Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t remember the exact words. I usually tell people
when I contact them about business, I would like to meet them in their
office or in their place of business.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make an appointment and go down? You didn’t talk
to him about what he wanted or what kind of property he had over the
telephone?
Mrs. CHEEK. No; didn’t make any discussion.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack’s ad indicate he was selling the full interest,
or half interest?
Mrs. CHEEK. Half, and he wanted a partner.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you would have been a partner?
Mrs. CHEEK. No; I wouldn’t. When I invest, I make a corporation out of
it, or someone else operates the business for me. That is the way the
rooming houses; I have managers in them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack talk to you about how much he was making off of
this business?
Mrs. CHEEK. No. He might have talked to me about that, but I don’t
remember the exact figures.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you come to the conclusion that his price was too
high?
Mrs. CHEEK. I just thought it was too high. I could build a club for
that. I know the prices of material.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack was only interested in selling an interest in the
real estate at that time, or was he interested in the----
Mrs. CHEEK. The business. He didn’t have the real estate. He didn’t
have the building. It was just the business he was selling half
interest in it. I could buy a place for that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you would have been interested in the profitability of
Jack’s particular business?
Mrs. CHEEK. No; not his particular business. I didn’t know what kind
of club he was operating out there. I thought it was a dance place and
cocktail lounge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But in order to determine whether the twelve thousand
price was too high and you weren’t going to get any real estate out of
it, you were going to share in the profits from the club, you would
have to know something about how much money he was making off the club?
Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t remember how much he was making.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You did talk to him; didn’t you?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; I talked to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He said he wanted $12,500 for half of the business?
Mrs. CHEEK. I didn’t look at the books. I didn’t even go into that
because I didn’t want to put $12,500 into that kind of club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you talk to him on this occasion?
Mrs. CHEEK. It wasn’t very long.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to him for 3 hours?
Mrs. CHEEK. I just don’t know how long I talked to him the first time,
because it’s been so long ago. But the last time I stayed down there,
I think, an hour or so or 3. It might have been 3 hours or 2 hours,
because he brought in this other fellow named Frank, his interior
decorator, or that decorated the club, and I talked to him, and he was
telling me what a nice fellow he was, because I didn’t know Jack Ruby
very well.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Frank’s name Frank Fisher? Do you remember that name?
Mrs. CHEEK. No; I don’t know. He just kept referring to him as Frank.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether this fellow was in business for
himself or whether he worked with somebody, this Frank fellow?
Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear the name of whom he might have been
employed by?
Mrs. CHEEK. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now as I understand it, Jack at this particular time got
your name through somebody, a fellow by the name of Alexander, or
another fellow that you talked to in connection with buying a club?
Mrs. CHEEK. Olen Alexander.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was the club?
Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t know that to be the truth, but I just thought that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was the club that you were looking at?
Mrs. CHEEK. It wasn’t a club. It was a building that they were showing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that located?
Mrs. CHEEK. On Maple.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever had an interest in any nightclub or
dancehall?
Mrs. CHEEK. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time of the day or night was it that you met
with Jack this last occasion?
Mrs. CHEEK. 2 o’clock in the evening.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In the afternoon?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This was at the Carousel?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; in his office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When Jack called you, what did he say to you?
Mrs. CHEEK. Said he had a business deal that he wanted to talk over
with me. I said, “What kind is it?”
And he said, “A club.” And asked me to come down to talk to him about
it, and I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate at the time he called you how much money
he wanted you to invest?
Mrs. CHEEK. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now when you got down there to talk to him, what did
he say and what did you say? Try to recall as best you can how this
conversation was.
Mrs. CHEEK. He said he had a location for a club and he wanted me to
put in $6,000 and he’d put $1,000 and he would use his talent and
ability to operate a club, and he knew really how to run one and
operate one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate what sort of return he expected?
Mrs. CHEEK. Fifty-fifty.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Each would have a half interest in the club?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate how much of a return you would make for
your $6,000?
Mrs. CHEEK. No; he didn’t. He couldn’t even tell me the location of the
place, because I asked him that, kept questioning him about where is
the location, and he didn’t want to tell me that. And I asked him why,
and he said, “Well, he just couldn’t tell me right then.” And I said,
“Is it because you think I might go around and sell this place or try
to buy it myself?” And he said, “Yes, that is the reason.”
He said, “How would you do about anything like that?” And I said,
“Well, you tie it up. Put some money up on it.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it sound like Jack was interested in buying a piece
of real estate, or was he going to get a lease and operate in a leased
building, or what?
Mrs. CHEEK. He didn’t go into that. He just kept talking about how
he could operate a club, how much money could be made, you know, and
he introduced me to this other fellow and talked about what a good
interior decorator he was and how he would decorate the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did the interior decorator say?
Mrs. CHEEK. Then the man was telling me what a good operator he was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you anything about his experience in other
places he decorated?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; one or two places; but I really didn’t pay any
attention to what locations. I was just listening to Mr. Ruby on what
his deal was on the investment I was supposed to make, and whether or
not I would like it or not, and I told him I could manage a business,
too. And I said, “I don’t think that I would want to go in with anyone
and put $6,000 and you put $1,000. You would have to come fifty-fifty.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack indicate was his response?
Mrs. CHEEK. He said he couldn’t do it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell from his response whether he meant that he
didn’t want to do it or that he couldn’t afford to do it, or what he
meant by that?
Mrs. CHEEK. Well, he did say he didn’t have the money.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say he didn’t have the money?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now had you inquired about Jack Ruby from other people?
Mrs. CHEEK. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean now you only met him?
Mrs. CHEEK. I had heard people talk about Jack Ruby, but I didn’t
inquire about him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it other people that you know had told you things
about Jack Ruby?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes. I have heard people talk about him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What had you heard about Jack prior to the time you went
to talk to him about this club where he wouldn’t tell you where it was
located?
Mrs. CHEEK. I haven’t heard anything except he ran the Carousel Club
and was a good operator.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You had heard what kind of businessman he was? How well he
ran his business?
Mrs. CHEEK. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you heard whether he was honest or dishonest?
Mrs. CHEEK. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what you heard?
Mrs. CHEEK. I just knew he run a club and I heard people say that he
was a good operator, and I figured if he was a good operator and made
money, he must have been a good businessman. You don’t make money
unless you are a good operator.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who it was that told you Jack was a good
operator?
Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t recall right off.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you had the impression that Jack was able to
make money off of his operations?
Mrs. CHEEK. That’s right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do any of your friends or acquaintances or tenants
know Jack Ruby?
Mrs. CHEEK. Not that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall at all who it might have been that had known
Jack well enough to tell you that he was running his business well?
Mrs. CHEEK. I think it was a policeman that had rented from me that I
had talked to occasionally and said something about Jack Ruby’s place.
I don’t know just who it was that told me, and their name. I would be
talking to someone sometime, and I can’t remember their names to save
my life.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the name of the policeman?
Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you had a number of policemen rent from you?
Mrs. CHEEK. I think Mr. Olson said something--I am not sure of the
name--on the police force. I wouldn’t like to say anything else unless
I know for sure I can give the exact name and address. I just heard
this conversation.