Mr. EBERHARDT. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?
Mr. EBERHARDT. September 13, 1933.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your occupation?
Mr. EBERHARDT. I am a detective of police.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been with the police department?
Mr. EBERHARDT. Eight years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you assigned to any particular unit?
Mr. EBERHARDT. Assigned to burglary and theft.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been with burglary and theft?
Mr. EBERHARDT. About 2 years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you and I talked for some time just prior to taking
this deposition, is that right?
Mr. EBERHARDT. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, prior to my talking with you, has anybody else from
the Commission staff, as opposed to the Secret Service, one of the
investigatory agencies, has anybody from the Commission staff spoken
with you?
Mr. EBERHARDT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I made some notes during our interview I want to dictate
these for the record. I wish you would listen to them carefully, and if
there are any changes or corrections that you would like to make, I
wish you would tell me and we can straighten up the record on this.
I began talking with Mr. Eberhardt about how the FBI happened to
interview him on December 20, 1963, and he indicated that he believed
that it was a result of finding his telephone number in one of Jack
Ruby’s notebooks or on a scrap of paper. Mr. Eberhardt told me that he
had changed his telephone number and that the number which was actually
in Jack’s phone book was not the number that he had now. The reason for
the change was that, out in Seagoville, the telephone company became
a member or a part of the regular Dallas dialing district, and all of
the telephone numbers in Seagoville were changed, although there was no
actual physical change of any telephone. He also stated to me that he
had come to know Jack Ruby in connection with his work on the police
force, that while he was a member of the vice squad and while he has
been with the burglary and theft division of the police department, he
has had occasion to visit Ruby’s nightclubs. Now, he said that, since
he has been with burglary and theft, which has been since early 1962,
that he saw--went into Ruby’s place almost every night when he was on
the night shift, and I asked him when he was last on the night shift,
and he stated that he was on the night shift the month of October. Mr.
Eberhardt also----
Mr. EBERHARDT. That is going to be wrong.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Speak to the reporter.
Mr. EBERHARDT. I am just trying to think. I told--I was working 3 to 11
when the President got killed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. EBERHARDT. So that would be my night shift.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during which shift did you go in to Ruby’s club?
Mr. EBERHARDT. I would be working 3 to 11 shift in November, the month
that the President got killed, but I hadn’t seen him in November, and
I had worked days in October and I hadn’t seen him in October, so it
would be August when I would have been up there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it be September?
Mr. EBERHARDT. September. I was working 3 to 11 when the President got
killed, because I was home and heard it on television and came on to
work.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, did you ever visit Jack’s clubs on a
social basis?
Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how frequently would you visit them on a social basis?
Mr. EBERHARDT. In the 5 years I knew him, I was at the Vegas Club about
three times with my wife.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Carousel Club?
Mr. EBERHARDT. We went up there once and she wouldn’t ever go back. She
wanted to see what it was like.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How recently before the President was killed had you been
in the Vegas or Carousel Club?
Mr. EBERHARDT. Socially?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. EBERHARDT. It had been a long time, over a year.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And to continue dictating what Detective Eberhardt told
me, he stated that he regarded Jack Ruby as a source of information in
connection with his investigatory activities. I asked him in particular
whether he remembered any instances when Jack had been a source of
such information, and he stated that at one time Jack reported to him
a female employee of his whom he believed had been forging checks and
also thought might be a source of narcotics or drugs of some sort, and
as a result of the information which Ruby provided, a charge was filed
against this girl.
Now, do you remember the name of the girl?
Mr. EBERHARDT. Not her true name. We handed her over to the forgery
bureau. She had some dangerous drugs. She was up under the name of
[deletion]. She never came back. We arrested her out of the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long ago was that?
Mr. EBERHARDT. That was when I was working vice. Three years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you also stated that he informed on a fellow by the
name of [deleted], who was wanted in connection with a white slavery
charge. Did you ever prosecute that?
Mr. EBERHARDT. No. He came into town. He was already under indictment.
He told us that he was in town and where he was staying, which we like
to know. He was staying at the Baker Hotel, which was half a block away
from the Carousel, and he had heard one of the parking lot boys talking
about this Valentine being up there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
Mr. EBERHARDT. And a search warrant was executed and a squad of
officers went in there and arrested them all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?
Mr. EBERHARDT. That was when I was in vice, too. Two or three years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of information did he give you in connection
with burglary investigation?
Mr. EBERHARDT. I investigated one burglary when his place was
burglarized, and I had several complaints at the Vegas Club from them
as owners. Out on the street, if we asked him about a particular
person--we asked him about 8 or 9 months ago about a safe burglar
[deleted]. He said he didn’t know him. If he was on the street, he
would come in and call it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that burglary at Ruby’s place?
Mr. EBERHARDT. I was working deep nights. He surprised the burglars in
his club and ran them out. I was in burglary and theft then for about
a year or year and a half. The case wasn’t assigned to me. I was the
officer on the scene, being the detective on duty at the time of the
occurrence.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this at the Carousel Club?
Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say a year or year and a half. Do you mean a year or
year and a half ago or after you went on B. and T.?
Mr. EBERHARDT. A year ago from now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So that would have taken it to early 1963 or late 1962?
Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have a safe in his club at that time?
Mr. EBERHARDT. No. It was a metal filing cabinet they pried, came in
the back door, came up the fire escape. He had closed the place, went
to eat, went back for his dogs, and when he came back, they were there,
the burglars were there. They didn’t get away with any of the loot, and
they were later filed on, I believe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack do when he surprised them?
Mr. EBERHARDT. He called the police.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he fight with them or anything?
Mr. EBERHARDT. No. They got out. He had a gun with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have a safe?
Mr. EBERHARDT. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever talk with you about putting a safe into the
Carousel?
Mr. EBERHARDT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of his talking with anybody about his
installing a safe in the Carousel?
Mr. EBERHARDT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk with Jack about his practice with
respect to keeping money?
Mr. EBERHARDT. He always kept a large sum of money in his pocket, and
I talked to him several times about leaving that place at 2:30 or 3
o’clock in the morning and driving home with it, but this was just one
of his peculiarities.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever tell you what he did with it, where he kept it
once he got it home?
Mr. EBERHARDT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether he used any banks or anything like
that?
Mr. EBERHARDT. No; I don’t know anything about that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether Jack owned any real estate?
Mr. EBERHARDT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever talk to you about the financial condition of
his club?
Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?
Mr. EBERHARDT. That was when it was a private club. Before he opened
the Carousel, see, it was a private club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that when it was known as the Sovereign Club?
Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes. And he said he was losing his shirt and he was
going to open it up to the public, and he did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, since then, did he ever talk to you about how he was
doing financially?
Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes. Business was good.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How recently did you talk to him about financial condition?
Mr. EBERHARDT. Any time you would go up there and see him, you know, he
would come, you know, he liked to tell you business was good, he was
doing good, because he didn’t like his opposition, they were on the
outs all of the time, the two brothers, Weinsteins. They didn’t like
each other at all. They didn’t go to each other’s places. He would like
to say he was doing good, getting some of their business, he was doing
good. He liked to talk about that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know or did you ever hear him talk about Ralph
Paul?
Mr. EBERHARDT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you heard of him?
Mr. EBERHARDT. No; I haven’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I believe you also told me that you knew George
Senator and that George was a bartender for Jack at the Carousel?
Mr. EBERHARDT. He was doorman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He was doorman?
Mr. EBERHARDT. He took the money when the people came in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know who was the person at the door, the ticket
taker, whatever you call it, at the Vegas Club?
Mr. EBERHARDT. Eva was; Eva Grant.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Eva Grant; how would your describe her physically?
Mr. EBERHARDT. She is in her forties, I would say, heavy set. She
has long hair. It was usually red tinted. Fair complected, nice,
middle-aged looking woman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say she was heavy set? How heavy would you say?
Mr. EBERHARDT. I would say 155.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How tall would you say?
Mr. EBERHARDT. Any time I saw her, she had heels on and she would be
five-six or seven in heels.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is she noticeably fat or obese?
Mr. EBERHARDT. No. She is just big boned, a big-boned woman. She is not
actually what you would call real fat. She is just heavy built.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a woman by the name of Pauline Hall who
worked at the Vegas Club?
Mr. EBERHARDT. Not by name, I don’t. I might if I would see her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know of any fat, heavy-set woman who worked at the
Vegas Club?
Mr. EBERHARDT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know of any such person who worked at the Carousel
Club?
Mr. EBERHARDT. No. Eva had a good friend--I don’t know what her name
was--who she thought one time stole a ring off of her, who she was
going to call and make a report on it and called me and told me not to.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see the woman?
Mr. EBERHARDT. I have never seen her. She was a very close friend of
Mrs. Grant, and that is why I dropped the investigation, and that is
the only close friend I have heard her speak of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall that woman’s name?
Mr. EBERHARDT. No; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?
Mr. EBERHARDT. That was last year sometime.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To continue with this dictation of what Mr. Eberhardt told
me prior to starting this deposition, that he also stated that he knew
a man named Buddy King, who had worked for Jack, and apparently King
had been down on his luck and Jack had picked him up and given him a
job for a while, and that it was common practice for Jack to pick up
these people, people of this sort, and employ them for a short while.
Do you think Jack did this because he could get these people for low
wages or do you think that he did it out of the goodness of his heart?
Mr. EBERHARDT. He liked show people like Buddy King--you know, he was
in the movies--and he put a picture up there with Our Gang Comedy. He
liked to be around people like that. Prizefighters, they would be up
there now and then.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know any prizefighters up there?
Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes. I met a prizefighter that bounced for him one
night, the old heavyweight here in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Turman?
Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes; Buddy Turman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is he the only one that hung around there?
Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes; I take it back. You remember when this left-handed
lightweight fighting for Curtis Cokes, going to fight for the title,
little, left-handed, Muskegon, Mich.? He was down there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that?
Mr. EBERHARDT. When Kenney Lane fought Curtis Cokes in Dallas, the
night after, he was up in the place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Kenney Lane fought Curtis Cokes?
Mr. EBERHARDT. Kenney Lane fought Curtis Cokes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He came up to the place?
Mr. EBERHARDT. He came up to the place. He is top contender right now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack say how he knew him?
Mr. EBERHARDT. No. He just said, “There is Kenney Lane.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how often do they have prizefights in Dallas?
Mr. EBERHARDT. They haven’t had one for quite a while now. They tried
to promote some, but they didn’t go over good.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about amateur fights?
Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes; we have tried to build up with some smokers with
the Police Athletic League, and such as that. Had the Golden Gloves.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how often in the average year have they had the
amateur fights, that you know of?
Mr. EBERHARDT. They had 4 or 5 cards last year.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who sponsored those?
Mr. EBERHARDT. I don’t know who was sponsoring them, really.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have anything to do with those?
Mr. EBERHARDT. No; huh-uh.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever indicate to you any interest in them?
Mr. EBERHARDT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I also asked Detective Eberhardt if he knew of anyone
else whom he knew from the police department, and he mentioned that
his partner on the vice squad, R. L. Clark, also got some useful
information, but that Eberhardt hasn’t worked with Clark since early
1962 when Detective Eberhardt was transferred to burglary and theft.
Now, is there anything else that you would want to add to what I have
just dictated?
Mr. EBERHARDT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that--are you satisfied that that is an accurate
statement, a report of what we talked about----
Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Beforehand?
Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you have given an interview to Agents Smith and
Chapoton, [spelling] C-h-a-p-o-t-o-n, of the Federal Bureau of
Investigation on December 20, 1963, and you stated that, when you were
on duty sometime between 3 and 11 p.m. on Friday night, November 22,
that you recall seeing Jack Ruby on the third floor between 6 and 7
p.m. Will you tell us how you happened to--how you fix this as between
6 and 7 p.m.?
Mr. EBERHARDT. I was working afternoons, usually go to eat at around
5:30 or 6, and I already had eaten when I got back in the office when I
seen Jack, and so make it around 7 o’clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you actually in the office when you saw Jack?
Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was Jack?
Mr. EBERHARDT. He had stuck his head in our door and hollered at us.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he come in and talk at all?
Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did he remain in the office?
Mr. EBERHARDT. Oh, 10 or 15 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else was in the office with you at that time?
Mr. EBERHARDT. Our whole--well, our shift was on. I don’t recall who
actually was in there, but Lieutenant Leonard’s shift was on at that
time. That is who I worked for at that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Give me as many of the people as you recall who would have
been on that shift.
Mr. EBERHARDT. Let’s see. I wouldn’t know their days off, but I could
tell you the names of everybody on the shift.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let’s have that.
Mr. EBERHARDT. C. A. Jones, S. Tuck, P. Dillehay, J. R. Johnston, C. T.
Burney, W. P. Posey, R. A. Standifer, M. Tuck. Lieutenant, it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is Lieutenant Leonard?
Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes; there is some more that I just can’t--H. J. Bettes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you spell that last name?
Mr. EBERHARDT. [Spelling.] B-e-t-t-e-s. Correction on Posey. He was on
vacation. J. H. Boyd, that I can remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Those people that you have named, do you remember
specifically if any of them were in the office when Jack came in?
Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes; the lieutenant was there, I think Jones was there,
I think Tuck was there, and they were in and out and reporters in and
out, you know, it is hard to sit here and visualize who was standing
there, and the secretaries were there, but I don’t recall which were on
duty.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have a number of rooms in your office; don’t you?
Mr. EBERHARDT. In our office?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. EBERHARDT. We have three interrogation rooms.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have the main reception room, the interrogation rooms?
Mr. EBERHARDT. No, no; the only office that is closed off is the
interrogation rooms.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As you walk into the office, you come into a room?
Mr. EBERHARDT. You come into an “L,” and then the room opens up for you.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, can you describe which room Jack came into?
Mr. EBERHARDT. He opened our door and walked in about three paces and
just stood there and talked.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he sit down at all?
Mr. EBERHARDT. No; he stood up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what do you remember him saying?
Mr. EBERHARDT. He came in and said hello to me, shook hands with me.
I asked him what he was doing. He told me he was a translator for
the newspapers. Of course, I knew that he could speak Yiddish. Had a
notebook in his hand, and he talked a little bit about that, and then
he said that he brought the coffee and sandwiches up for the reporters,
corned beef sandwiches. He said, “Nothing but kosher stuff is all I
bring.” He talked a little bit about the assassination of the President.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember him saying--what he said about the
assassination?
Mr. EBERHARDT. How terrible it was for it to happen in the city, and
then he left.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he seem--how would you describe his state of emotion
over the Presidents death?
Mr. EBERHARDT. Well, he said that he--he called me by my middle
name--he said, “It is hard to realize that a complete nothing, a zero
like that, could kill a man like President Kennedy was.” He said that,
“It is hard to understand how a complete nothing,” that is what he
referred to him as, “a complete nothing could have done this,” and then
he left, and then I didn’t notice where he went.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you remember anything else that was said in these
5 or 10 minutes that he was in there?
Mr. EBERHARDT. No; he just asked me how I was doing, how my wife and
children are, which he always did any time he seen anybody.