Mr. HUBERT. Did you keep your eye on the man, this man?
Mr. TURNER. No; I had just glanced up there, and I had come back--my
eye on our reporter, Tom Pettit, and also the door, which is behind Tom
Pettit, which I will mark right now as “11”, where Oswald made his exit.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when was the next time you saw the man whom you have
previously identified as number “10” and at what position was he then?
Mr. TURNER. The next time I saw him he walked up to Position “12”,
which was almost in line with our man, Pettit, which is number “8”,
here.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you saw him then?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he at the front row of those people?
Mr. TURNER. Let me mark two more positions here, sir. A policeman was
over here to his right, I think, which we’ll mark, “13”, and then there
was a reporter, or a man dressed in a suit, I’ll call him the reporter
at “14”.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, and my point is, that when you next saw the man
who is now identified as Jack Ruby, and therefore I shall refer to him
as Jack Ruby from now on out, he was at a position marked as number
“12”?
Mr. TURNER. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he standing still there, or moving?
Mr. TURNER. There was only a matter of 4 seconds, or 5 seconds, when
he arrived there that--until Oswald reached the point where he was
assassinated.
Mr. HUBERT. You saw Ruby arrive at the front?
Mr. TURNER. That’s right. He walked up to--see, this is all in line,
from our camera position to our--there were--they were just a little
back of the side light from our camera to our newscaster----
Mr. HUBERT. That’s number “8”?
Mr. TURNER. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. But you are willing to say that he was standing at the
front row of the group of people congregated there for possibly 5
seconds before he moved forward to shoot Oswald?
Mr. TURNER. That’s right, that’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. And you judge that the time that you saw him standing
still, 5 seconds before this shooting of Oswald, was approximately 15
to 20 seconds after you first saw him in that position “10”?
Mr. TURNER. I am vague about that time. Ten seconds or 20 seconds. I am
very vague. I mean, but I know he was only there a short time, because
I saw--we were on guard to try to move the newsmen out of our way, push
them out of the way in front of the camera, and you kind of thrash
around at the movement of them to keep on your shot, and that is how I
come to notice another man up there. These three men are the only ones
that I remember on that side except our man Pettit. There could have
been more. There was some CBS cameramen over in this locality, but they
had already been there, and that wasn’t in my mind at all, the ones
that were actually stationed there. It was the movement of people at
that time that made you look at it.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, let’s get a little bit more about this period
for Jack Ruby to move from the position you have marked “10”, to the
position you have marked “12”, when he was standing in the front line.
Did he have to go through any great mass of people?
Mr. TURNER. No, not to my knowledge, because I didn’t see a great
number of men up in there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have to push, or shoulder his way up there?
Mr. TURNER. No.
Mr. HUBERT. He could just walk up and get into that position?
Mr. TURNER. That’s right. There was some more men out there in this
area, but I can’t connect it at this point.
Mr. HUBERT. What I want to get at, from what you tell me the group was
not such that he would have to bulldoze his way through?
Mr. TURNER. No; he just flat walked up.
Mr. HUBERT. Just once, again for the record. There can be no doubt in
your mind but the man now identified as Jack Ruby is the man you saw at
position “10”?
Mr. TURNER. Correct.
Mr. HUBERT. All right; now, during our interview, immediately preceding
the commencement of this deposition you mentioned another person that
you had seen around the court building on several occasions, and I
should like now--in other words, tell what you know about this person
when you first saw him, now, at the numerous occasions on which you saw
him until the last time that you saw him?
Mr. TURNER. All right. All right. We arrived from Fort Bliss at
approximately 1 a.m. Saturday, the 23d of November, from Fort Worth,
to set up our mobile unit inside the jail for a coverage of the
assassination of the President, and when we arrived there we--there was
this man that resembled John Carradine of the movies quite a lot. He
was very thin faced, around 40 to 50, carrying a portfolio, and another
little bag with him. Looked like a shaving kit bag, or something of
that effect. He--as soon as we got there, it was chilly, and we went
inside the open doors on the Commerce Street side, and he was standing
inside, and he immediately started talking to us about various things
which we passed off as just an average person talking to you, finding
out what you were doing and everything, and he talked to us about 15
or 20 minutes. He did mention in his conversation that he had been a
school teacher prior to that, about 16 months before.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, did he have a press badge on?
Mr. TURNER. No, he had no badge on. He was wearing a light trenchcoat
or topcoat.
Mr. HUBERT. What height was he?
Mr. TURNER. He was approximately 5 feet 8 inches.
Mr. HUBERT. What would you guess his weight to be?
Mr. TURNER. Oh, only around 130 to 140 pounds. Very light in weight;
very skinny.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see the clothing he had under the trenchcoat?
Mr. TURNER. No; as far as I know, I never saw him without the
trenchcoat on, the whole time.
Mr. HUBERT. All right; go ahead.
Mr. TURNER. He--We went to the cafe down the block to grab a bite to
eat at this time, waiting on the truck, and the truck arrived while we
were eating, and when we got back there he was still standing there
talking, and a Mexican gentleman had come out, had been drinking too
heavy, and made some comment about that, just a general line of talk.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever mention his name?
Mr. TURNER. He never mentioned his name.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear anyone else talk to him?
Mr. TURNER. As long as I was over there the only ones I saw talk to him
was the man, Dave Timmons, with our crew, which was up there at the
time, and Richard Bice, he was there, which was with the crew, and that
is the only ones I ever saw him talk to.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him talk to any policemen?
Mr. TURNER. Never did, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. TURNER. He continually, after they got set up, he kept coming up in
the hallway.
Mr. HUBERT. That is on the third floor?
Mr. TURNER. On the third floor, sir. This is while we were still up on
the third floor, and waiting to get shots of Oswald being transferred
from the elevator door to the questioning room, and he would
continually come up and give--say, “They are going to bring him down
in about 5 minutes.” And he usually was right, on each one of the tips
he gave us. He mingled around in the press room up on the third floor
a lot. He--I told Tom Pettit, which was the announcer up on the floor,
that Oswald was coming down, and he said, “Where are you learning the
information?”
Mr. HUBERT. You asked this of this man?
Mr. TURNER. Well, no; I didn’t ever ask him where he was learning
his information, but I told--Tom Pettit asked me where I was getting
this information, and I said, “Well, that man back over there,” and I
pointed him out and he said, “Who is he?” And I said, “I don’t know who
he is, but he is giving us some pretty good tips.” And he said, “Okay,
keep using him, then.” From that point on, we saw him various times the
whole, completely on the third.
Mr. HUBERT. How many times do you think you saw him?
Mr. TURNER. Oh, any number of times, 15 or 20. Just pass him in the
hall.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to have free movement?
Mr. TURNER. That’s right. He had free movement on that floor. He had
free movement in the basement. That was the only two floors we actually
ever did see him, but he was on those floors, back to the press room,
talking to the other reporters.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, go ahead.
Mr. TURNER. And, he--and then Sunday morning we came over. I ran into
him in the restroom, and he seemed to just live there in the jail.
Mr. HUBERT. Still had that trenchcoat?
Mr. TURNER. And still carrying the little bag, same little bag.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it seem to be a camera bag?
Mr. TURNER. No; they were not camera bags. One little, thin portfolio,
and I took the assumption he was selling insurance, from just looking
at the little--something like an insuranceman might show to a customer,
but that could be entirely wrong.
Mr. HUBERT. And then he had another bag besides that?
Mr. TURNER. That’s right. Something like a traveling kit. Somewhere
about 2 inches deep. And we came again Sunday morning, and then we
went through the shooting of Oswald, he wasn’t in the basement, to my
knowledge at this point.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you see him next?
Mr. TURNER. The next time I saw him was approximately 15 minutes after
the shooting when I started to our remote truck to pick up a mike line
and a camera cable. The doors was being guarded by policemen, who
stopped me, and I told them my business; why I wanted to leave the
jail, and give them my name and he let me leave.
Mr. HUBERT. That was at the Commerce Street entrance?
Mr. TURNER. Commerce Street entrance. All right, and when I came back
in, which was approximately 3 or 4 minutes after, after we got the
stuff ready to bring the camera in to take the lineup room, which is in
the basement of the jail, well, this officer had him at the door, and
he was trying to show him identification from his billfold.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know who that officer was?
Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I don’t. And this man turned to me and said, “That
man there can identify me,” and I said, “Like hell I can. I don’t know
who you are or what you are.” Or similar to this effect, that I had
seen the man, but I didn’t know who he was, so, I kept on about my
business, because we were pretty rushed at that time, and approximately
15 minutes later I ran onto him in the hallway coming back out the
same door, and he said, “Thanks a million,” and I said, “Well, I don’t
know you from anyone.” I said, “That’s why I didn’t identify you.” Or
something to that effect and from that point on, I have never seen the
gentleman again.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you made any effort to ascertain who he was?
Mr. TURNER. I have reported this to the Secret Service, Mr. Carter with
the Secret Service, and I figured it wasn’t any of my business, from
that point on.
Mr. HUBERT. You have never seen him since?
Mr. TURNER. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You were at the Ruby trial?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You never saw that man there?
Mr. TURNER. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know most of the officers of the--top officers, at
least--of the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. TURNER. I know several. The chief and several of them, by face. I
do not know them personally.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, in any case, as far as you know, this man that you
have described looks like John Carradine, with the other aspects of the
description you have given, wasn’t a police officer that you knew to be
a police officer?
Mr. TURNER. That’s right, sir--as far as I know. I never saw him
talking to a police officer or any of them except the one.
Mr. HUBERT. He wasn’t at the Ruby trial?
Mr. TURNER. He was never at the Ruby trial. The one officer at the door
was the only contact I ever saw him with a police officer, and that was
when he was, to my knowledge, trying to----
Mr. HUBERT. You remember any other facial characteristics about him,
for instance, the color of his hair, or the way he wore his hair, or
did he need a haircut, or was he----
Mr. TURNER. He was a typical man. I didn’t pay much attention to the
haircut, but I’m pretty sure it was dark hair, black hair.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any scars, or identifiable marks?
Mr. TURNER. He did not have scars, but just wrinkles of age, like
Carradine does.
Mr. HUBERT. How old a man would he have been, do you think?
Mr. TURNER. Between 40 and 50, is my guess, but he had some wrinkles on
his face. He was thin-jawed like.
Mr. HUBERT. What color eyes?
Mr. TURNER. I don’t know. I didn’t get that far.
Mr. HUBERT. And he wore this trenchcoat all the time?
Mr. TURNER. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. And carried the two bags?
Mr. TURNER. That’s right, and he was walking around.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any sort of accent in his speech?
Mr. TURNER. No; he had a typical Texan speech. I mean like myself, I
have one, and he talked like a Texan. He didn’t have----
Mr. HUBERT. Didn’t have any foreign accent?
Mr. TURNER. And, he did mention he had been a schoolteacher.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I want to go back for a minute to this matter of the
position of Ruby of which you have marked on Exhibit 5080, at position
“10.”
Mr. TURNER. Correct, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. On the line, “A,” “B,” now, which shows him at position
“10,” he was moving, is that correct?
Mr. TURNER. That’s right, he was slowly moving.
Mr. HUBERT. And his movement was from what direction?
Mr. TURNER. He was going forward.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, he was coming from what?
Mr. TURNER. From down the ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there any possibility that his movement could have been
through the rail at this point that I am marking?