Mr. HUBERT. All right; the sentence that the witness is referring to
is in the third paragraph--it is the third sentence and it reads as
follows:
“He had assumed a station directly in front of the doors leading from
the elevator onto the ramp in the basement and had been trying to keep
persons out of the line of the KLRD cameras in order that Oswald could
be photographed as he left the doors leading from the elevators.”
Now, do you wish to comment about that sentence?
Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes, sir; there are two discrepancies in that one. I
had assumed a station directly in front of the doors leading from the
interior basement of the Dallas Police Headquarters into the basement
parking area, rather than leading from the elevator onto the ramp.
And, I had been attempting to keep persons out of the line of the KRLD
camera, but this was not in order that Oswald could be photographed,
but it was in order that the live camera--the--because this was not
a film camera such as that that George Phenix was using, but a live
camera--so that it would enable our live cameras to pick him up as he
left the door leading from the jail office into the basement, rather
than leading from the elevator.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; other than the wording of that, and other
than the corrections you have previously made as to Exhibit 5331, do
you think it is a fair statement of the interview of you on November 28?
Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I have marked for the purpose of identification a
chart of the basement which, as you can see on this FBI mockup before
you is a chart of the same object except that the map covers some area
not covered by the mockup, and for the purpose of identification, I
have marked it as “Dallas, Tex., April 16, 1964, Exhibit No. 5333,
Deposition of R. S. Huffaker, Jr.”
And I have signed my name below it. Now, I think your statements
previously given and identified as Nos. 5331 and 5332 indicate that
you had taken up a position approximately one-half an hour before the
shooting actually occurred; is that correct?
Mr. HUFFAKER. Approximately; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I would like you to fix that position by pointing to
it on the mockup, and then I will mark it on the chart, and if you
agree that it is correctly marked, you may say so, and thus we will
have a permanent record of exactly what position you were in?
Mr. HUFFAKER. All right, sir; approximately this position [indicating
on the mockup].
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are fixing a position almost in the middle of the
middle segment of the railing, which is divided into three segments, by
two horizontal poles, which railing runs from one post on the Commerce
Street side of the basement to another post on the Main Street side of
the basement; is that correct, sir?
Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you will note that the chart does not show the
vertical poles, but will you agree with me that the black part that I
am marking (1) and the black part that I am marking (2), represent on
the mockup itself the two main poles?
Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you agree with me, too, that looking at the mockup,
there is a railing which runs between those two posts marked (1) and
(2) and that that railing is divided by horizontal poles, approximately
equidistant from one another and from the two main posts?
Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So that I’m going to mark, at a point which may not be
mathematically correct, but is intended to be as a number (3), the
position of one of the vertical rails of the railing and the other
number (4) as the other vertical rail. Now, as you pointed out the
matter to me on the mockup, am I correct in saying that you were at
this point?
Mr. HUFFAKER. Let me see--yes, sir; that’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. I am marking the point with a number (5) in a circle, and
I ask you if that is not approximately where you were standing at the
time of the shooting and for a period of perhaps 15 to 20 minutes prior
thereto?
Mr. HUFFAKER. Well, now, you have the (5) in contact with the railing
almost, and I was farther away from the railing, however, its position
relation to its distance between point (1) and (2) and point (3) and
(4) is correct. However, it was a little farther from the railing.
Mr. HUBERT. How many inches or feet from the railing toward the jail
office or jail corridor were you standing, in fact?
Mr. HUFFAKER. Well, to the best of my knowledge, I was probably
about--approximately 4 feet from the rail.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I have written in my own hand and connected it with a
line to point (5) the following, “position of R. S. Huffaker, Jr., at
the time of shooting, but he was 4 feet from railing.”
Mr. HUFFAKER. Approximately.
Mr. HUBERT. I will add the word “about”--is that correct?
Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. “About 4 feet from railing.”
Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes; that’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, were you there for about 15 or 20 minutes prior to the
shooting?
Mr. HUFFAKER. Oh, I was there for at least a half an hour prior to the
shooting. You mean in that stable position?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. HUFFAKER. No, sir; not in that very spot.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, how long were you in that very spot?
Mr. HUFFAKER. Let’s see, I could not say for certain, but our video
tape which is preserved and in existence will show me taking this
position and will be the best evidence of exactly how long I was there.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us some idea of the number of people, either
police or news media, standing to your right as you stood there?
Mr. HUFFAKER. To my right?
Mr. HUBERT. You were facing the corridor with your back to the parking
area and your back to the railing, isn’t that correct?
Mr. HUFFAKER. Well, actually, my back was more facing the Main Street
ramp than it was to the parking area. My left side was facing the
railing.
Mr. HUBERT. You were almost looking up the ramp that goes to Commerce
Street?
Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us who was on your right or what was the
condition of the crowd of people there, how many there were?
Mr. HUFFAKER. There was a large number of people and there were, I
would say, at least 12 to 15 people lined up across the ramp and at the
wall, which is just outside the jail office there.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, would you take my pen and draw the front line of those
people, marking the beginning point as number (6) and the end of that
line as (7)?
Mr. HUFFAKER [marking the document as requested]. Now, this line
went--sometimes it went up into here [indicating] and I could not say
for certain whether it was existent at that time, but there were people
all the way up into here, but I would make a rough guess it would be
this.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you indicate (6) and (7)--in other words, there were
people lined up along the line that you have drawn as (6) and (7) at a
single point on one end of that line, too, from what I gather from that?
Mr. HUFFAKER. Not exactly--that is, I’m not certain--there could have
been some more between me and the rail.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, in the area back of that line and in the direction of
Main Street, you say there were approximately 12 to 15 to 18 people?
Mr. HUFFAKER. No, not behind the line, but actually lined up somewhat
in a line like that [indicating].
Mr. HUBERT. What about the number of people on the Main Street side of
the line which you have designated as (6) to (7)?
Mr. HUFFAKER. I just don’t know how many people were back there,
but I know there was a line of people from this point to this point
[indicating].
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any officers on the opposite side from where
you were standing?
Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you mark another line, curving it if need be, and
starting with (8) and going to (9) and showing us roughly the line of
people who were standing where you indicated?
Mr. HUFFAKER. Now, this will be to the best of my recollection [drew
the line as requested].
Mr. HUBERT. You have drawn a line, one end of which is (8) in a circle
and the other end of which is (9) in a circle--there were people
standing along there, you say?
Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who they were?
Mr. HUFFAKER. Most of them were police officers. I don’t know any of
them by name, but I was aware that they were police officers. That is,
I do not believe that I knew any of them by name.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby come out of the crowd?
Mr. HUFFAKER. No, sir; I didn’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him?
Mr. HUFFAKER. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you first observe that something had happened?
Mr. HUFFAKER. When I heard the shot, I recognized it as the sound of
a .38, and just as soon as reflexes would do it, I turned and saw
Oswald as he fell. I really could not distinguish Ruby from the mass of
humanity that was there, but the thing that I saw when I turned around
was Oswald falling.
Mr. HUBERT. What distance do you suppose there was between your body
and Oswald’s body at the time you saw this? You may look, for example,
in this room and see. Stay where you are and let me stand away from
you--was it this far or farther or closer or what? [Hubert walked
distances as indicated by the question.]
Mr. HUFFAKER. Let me see--let me stand up--it was about this far.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you judge, “this distance” to be?
Mr. HUFFAKER. Well, I would say it is about 11 feet.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Did you hear Ruby say anything?
Mr. HUFFAKER. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear anyone else say anything which was
distinguishable?
Mr. HUFFAKER. Not distinguishable--that is, not at the moment of the
shot. Immediately before or after----
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear anything at any time after?
Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes, sir; I did, which I could not quote it exactly, but
the first thing that I distinguished, the first utterance that I could
distinguish, and as I say, I do not recall the exact words, but I heard
Police Officer Richard Swain who was--I don’t know where he was before
the shot was fired, but immediately afterward, he was standing a very
short distance from me blocking access of anyone else, and he made--he
shouted out for no one to come any further.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember the words?
Mr. HUFFAKER. The words, frankly, I think he said, “I’ll knock you on
your ass,” but I’m not certain exactly what the words were.
Mr. HUBERT. But in any case, in the sense you understood the officer,
he was trying to keep anybody from converging there?
Mr. HUFFAKER. And how. Yes; he was.
Mr. HUBERT. There’s one other thing I wanted to do by way of position.
I’m going to roughly draw a rectangle which will not be in scale but
I hope that it will fix the position of the television camera unit of
KRLD which you were attached to.
Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. In the first place, I understand it was on the other side
of the rail from you?
Mr. HUFFAKER. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand further that some of its mechanisms, its
camera mechanisms were actually sticking out over the rail?
Mr. HUFFAKER. I think actually it protruded through the rail, rather
than over the rail, but I really can’t say for certain--I think it was
through the rail.
Mr. HUBERT. As I understand it, it was to your back and left more or
less?
Mr. HUFFAKER. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. So that although it is not intended to be accurate, but
just to give a general idea of the position of the KRLD camera, I am
marking a rectangle in which I am placing a capital A and would you
agree that that figure shows, generally speaking, the position of the
camera of KRLD?
Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. In order to make the map self explanatory to some extent, I
am writing on it as follows: “Approximate position of KRLD camera.”
Mr. HUFFAKER. Well, it might be well to distinguish this camera as the
live television camera from the film camera.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I will put in parentheses “live,” is that correct?
Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that it is correct to state that anyone who
would read your two statements, Exhibits 5331 and 5332 and who would
also read the transcript of the deposition and have available at the
time they are reading that, this chart, would have as accurate a story
of the facts as you know them as is possible?
Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes, sir; and of course my story could be--sometimes
could be fixed by looking at our video tape, and by the way, I am
sorry--I was going to look at it before today.
Mr. HUBERT. We have done that.
Mr. HUFFAKER. I’m sure you have, but anyway I was going to look at it
to refresh my memory. I didn’t ever get a chance to.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission’s
staff prior to today?
Mr. HUFFAKER. No; by no member of the Commission’s staff.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you and I spoke a little bit prior to the commencement
of this deposition, but do you perceive that we spoke about anything
which has not been subsequently brought up and discussed in this
deposition?
Mr. HUFFAKER. No; that’s correct. We did not discuss anything that has
not been brought up in it.
Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much.
Mr. HUFFAKER. Thank you.