Mr. HUBERT. As to that point?
Mr. SORRELS. As to that point; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, you would have had access to him, I
think, at the county jail, anyhow, would you not?
Mr. SORRELS. I had certainly planned on having access to him, and I
am sure I would have. As a matter of fact, I had in my mind to start
talking to him that afternoon.
Mr. HUBERT. What I wanted to clarify is whether or not your effort to
interrogate him was interrupted. But I gather that it was not.
Mr. SORRELS. No, I would say not. Possibly, had he remained there, I
might have attempted to ask him more questions. But he was not giving
out much information.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, during the whole time that Oswald was in
custody of the Dallas Police Department, did you find that any
obstacles or hindrances were put in your way of examining him?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; except had he been in our own custody, there
would have been a chance to have questioned him without others being
present, or so many others being present.
Mr. HUBERT. At the time that you were in Fritz’ office, on November 24,
did you hear any plans discussed for the transfer of Oswald?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I did not say that I heard anything about any plans.
I do recall that Oswald requested to have some of his clothes brought
down there, because his shirt that he had on when he was arrested had
been taken from him, I think, for laboratory examination. And Captain
Fritz sent and got some of his clothes, and he selected kind of a
sweater-type----
Mr. HUBERT. But you did not hear the officers of the Dallas police
force discussing the method of transportation and the security measures
that they had planned and put into operation?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes; I did hear a part of it, I recall now. There was some
suggestion about transporting him in an armored car. Captain Fritz
objected to that because of--one reason that I recall was what effect
it might have in his trial, that that might prejudice the prosecution
by him being transported in an armored car, which is not of course
ordinarily used in the transportation of prisoners in that area.
Another thing that I recall is that Captain Fritz thought that the
armored car would be a bit cumbersome and it would not be able to
maneuver as easily as a car. And it was his desire to take him in a
police car with escorts.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear anyone suggest that the plan then proposed,
and ultimately carried out in part, at least, should be changed so as
to bypass the press, as it were?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I did not. At that time there was no way to bypass
them, because they were out in the hall. As I had come to the building,
I even noticed cameras down in the basement of the city hall there.
Mr. SMITH. Could I interrupt just a second, sir. I may be completely
wrong about this, but wasn’t there something about the time of
transporting him?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes. As I understand it, some of the reporters had
inquired of Chief Jesse Curry as to whether or not he was going to
transport him to the county jail on the night of November 23.
Now, this is hearsay, that the reporters wanted to be relieved so
they could get some sleep if he was not going to be transported that
night--they would go home and get some rest.
Chief Curry himself told me that he had said something to this effect,
“Go on home and get your sleep, there won’t be anything doing before 10
o’clock tomorrow morning.”
As I recall, I think the newspapers then published the fact that he
would be moved at 10 o’clock in the morning, or words to that effect.
Mr. SMITH. I just wanted to get the full story, because I remembered
him having mentioned something about this. I do not know whether it is
important.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, in that connection, had you heard that the FBI had
received an anonymous phone call from someone advising that an effort,
by a group of men, would be made to kill Oswald?
Mr. SORRELS. I do not recall that I had heard any such report at that
time. I did hear that there had been an anonymous call come into the
police department that someone would try to kill him when they removed
him, or words to that effect. But that, I believe, was subsequent to
the time he was actually shot. I do not recall that morning of having
heard anything about that. And I definitely did not hear anything about
a group. I remembered something about it later on, but I never heard
anything about it at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear of any plans made as to the actual route that
would be followed in transporting Oswald?
Mr. SORRELS. Not before Oswald was shot.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why, from anything you knew then, or have
learned since, the cameramen and so forth were all congregated in the
basement area?
Mr. SORRELS. Would you read that question again?
Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at is this: You testified a moment
ago that when you came in you saw all the press people with their
cameras and so forth in the basement area.
Mr. SORRELS. Not all of them. I said I saw some down there.
Mr. HUBERT. Which would indicate that they either had guessed or had
somehow become aware that--that would indicate that they either had
guessed or had somehow become aware that that would be a point on the
route to be taken at which they could get pictures. And I was wondering
if you had heard anything prior to that time about the route, or had
you heard that these people had been informed of the route?
Mr. SORRELS. No; nothing about the route. The basement is used by the
police generally. They have a passageway which comes from Main Street
down into the basement, and then the exit continues on out to Commerce
Street, and the police cars that bring prisoners in use the basement.
In other words, they drive the car right down to the basement, and the
actual receiving office, the receiving office for the jail is on the
basement floor.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall ever having spoken to either Curry or some
other member of the police department about the possibility of moving
Oswald in a way other than that which was planned?
Mr. SORRELS. When I heard that they were supposed to take him out at
10 o’clock--that was the announcement and so forth on the radio and in
the papers--I remarked to Captain Fritz that if I were he, I would not
remove Oswald from the city hall or city jail to the county jail at
an announced time; that I would take him out at 3 or 4 o’clock in the
morning when there was no one around.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know when you told that to Fritz?
Mr. SORRELS. That was on the Sunday morning, before he was removed.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell that to any other person?
Mr. SORRELS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Was any other person present when you told that to Fritz?
Mr. SORRELS. No; not that I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. What caused you to give that advice to Captain Fritz?
Mr. SORRELS. The importance of the prisoner, to my mind, was such that
in order to remove the opportunity for some crackpot or anyone who
might feel inclined to try to kill the prisoner, if the removal was
made more or less unannounced or in secret, that those opportunities
would have been at least lessened to a great degree.
Captain Fritz said that Chief Curry did not want to--let’s reverse that
just a bit--that Chief Curry wanted to go along with the press and not
try to put anything over on them; or words to that effect.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you gather from what Fritz told you that the reason why
your suggestion was not acceptable was that Fritz at least thought that
captain--that Chief Curry did not want to break his word, as it were,
to the press?
Mr. SORRELS. I didn’t consider it so much as breaking his word as I
would that he did not want to tell them one thing, or in other words,
move him out without the press being aware of the fact--let’s put it
that way. That was my impression.
Mr. HUBERT. What time was it, about, do you know, that you made that
suggestion?
Mr. SORRELS. That was pretty close to 11:15 in the morning, just a
short time before they got ready to move him.
Mr. HUBERT. You do not know, do you, whether he conveyed your thought
to Chief Curry?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I do not. I doubt that he did, because Chief Curry had
left Fritz’ office at that time, as I recall it.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember about what time it was when the Oswald move
began from Fritz’ office?
Mr. SORRELS. It was shortly after 11:15 in the morning, as I recall it.
In other words----
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go down with the party carrying him down?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; I did not. Inspector Kelley and I went to the
office of Chief Batchelor, which is also on the third floor, and on
the south side of the building, on the Commerce Street side, and we
were observing the people across the street from the city hall, as
apparently they had been moved over there by officers on duty down
below. And we just saw several people over there that were apparently
waiting for an opportunity to see them take the prisoner out.
Mr. HUBERT. When you arrived at Chief Batchelor’s office, at the point
you have just described, to wit, the windows looking out on Commerce
Street, do you know whether Oswald had been shot?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I don’t think so, because that was immediately--in
other words, when they took Oswald out, I went right on down to the
chief’s office, that is right on the same floor. And we were there for
a few minutes before we heard that he had been shot.
Mr. HUBERT. But the Oswald party left Fritz’ office before you and Mr.
Kelley did?
Mr. SORRELS. I am rather positive that he was taken out before I left,
yes; because I remember about bringing the clothes in there, and Oswald
selecting, I think, a sweater or something like that. I actually have
no independent recollection of seeing him going through the door or
anything like that. He could have been there when we walked out. But
it is my impression that he was taken out and shortly thereafter Mr.
Kelley and I went to Chief Batchelor’s office.
Mr. HUBERT. Did that involve walking a distance on the same floor of
about how many feet?
Mr. SORRELS. Oh, possibly a 100 feet, 110, something like that. Captain
Fritz’ office is not at the entirely opposite end of the building, but
Chief Batchelor’s office is. You go into the executive area there, and
you cut over to the left-hand corner, and Chief Batchelor’s office is
in the corner.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you first learn that Ruby had shot Oswald?
Mr. SORRELS. One of the police officers that was on duty in the
executive area there told us that Oswald had been shot in the
basement--in the stomach, as I recall it.
Mr. HUBERT. You were still in Batchelor’s office at the time you were
told that?
Mr. SORRELS. I think we were right outside the office, in the area
there. I do not believe we were actually in his office at that
particular time. I think we had stepped outside there. And that I do
not think was over, oh, I would say a maximum of possibly 10 minutes,
from the time we left Captain Fritz’ office to go to Chief Batchelor’s
office.
Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the time that this policeman advised you that
Oswald had been shot, did you notice any commotion or anything to
indicate something wrong going on on Commerce Street?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you were standing at the window looking down, as I
understand it, on the scene on Commerce Street, waiting actually to see
the procession go out. But this officer told you this at the entrance
to Batchelor’s office?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes. I was not at the window at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. You had moved away?
Mr. SORRELS. We had walked away from the window, I think, just killing
time, I guess. And we were actually in the--outside of Batchelor’s
office, but in that area there.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. What did you do?
Mr. SORRELS. I immediately rushed down to the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you go--by what route?
Mr. SORRELS. I grabbed an elevator, as I recall it.
Mr. HUBERT. Public elevator or the jail elevator?
Mr. SORRELS. No; a public elevator--and got down to the basement
floor, and I headed right into the jailer’s office. And at that time
Oswald was laying on the floor and someone was giving him artificial
respiration.
Mr. HUBERT. By mechanical means?
Mr. SORRELS. No; by hand. I recall seeing his stomach was uncovered,
his shirt was pulled up like that, and the man apparently was over him
giving him artificial respiration by his hands.
I went to a telephone, which is in the jail office there, up against
the wall, and called my headquarters office and told Deputy Chief
Paterni that Oswald had been shot by a man named Jack Rubin--that is
how I understood it at that time--who operated a nightclub, and that
was all the information I had at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Paterni was in Washington?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That was a long-distance call?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what time the call was made, did you use a
direct line?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I called it on the security phone, which we use in
connection with matters pertaining to the protection of prisoners. In
other words, the Signal Corps--
(Witness provided telephone number.)
Mr. HUBERT. And you can use that on any telephone?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that a security matter?
Mr. SORRELS. I beg your pardon?
Mr. HUBERT. Is that a security matter, that telephone number?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes--Signal Corps.
Mr. HUBERT. I think the record should show that the witness stated the
number that was called, but that we are not going to have it as a part
of the record because it is a security matter.
You, Mr. Reporter, will delete the number from the transcript.
What I was trying to get at is have you ascertained at what time that
call was made?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I have not.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it be possible to do so?
Mr. SORRELS. I could not answer that question, because I do not know
what records are kept.
Mr. HUBERT. Does it go as a long-distance call?
Mr. SORRELS. A long-distance call collect; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Then the telephone company probably would have a record of
it?
Mr. SORRELS. Possibly so. It is my understanding that at that time they
were not actually making any record of calls--they were coming in so
fast, the employees of the telephone company told me those calls--they
put people through and were not concerned about time.
Mr. HUBERT. Was this done by direct dialing or through the operator?
Mr. SORRELS. Through the operator.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was a collect call?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. It would have to be charged to the government?
Mr. SORRELS. If it was recorded; yes, it would be, to that particular
phone.
Mr. HUBERT. I wonder if you would be so kind as to undertake to
ascertain for us if there exists a record on that point, because, as
you know, we are interested in very narrow areas of time here.
Mr. SORRELS. I would say this--that the time can be established within
a matter of a very few minutes, because Oswald was still on the floor
and had not been removed to the hospital at the time.
Mr. HUBERT. That is right.
But you see, I have estimates of time from other people, and I want to
see how it conforms. And therefore, to tie it in, could you give us
your estimate of how many minutes or parts of minutes elapsed between
the time you made your call, you initiated it, and the time that Oswald
actually moved out?
Mr. SORRELS. That I cannot tell you, because I was not there when he
was moved out. I left then that area as soon as I made that call.
Mr. HUBERT. He was still in the area when you made the call?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
The call went through very quickly. And I left that area then and went
back to Captain Fritz’ office, because I was interested in talking to
the man who had shot Oswald as quickly as possible.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you went down there to the jail office and saw
Oswald, as you testified, and made the call, was Jack Ruby there?
Mr. SORRELS. I did not see him.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. To your knowledge, he had already been removed?
Mr. SORRELS. That is correct; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, how did you get up to Fritz’ office?
Mr. SORRELS. I went back up the elevator, the regular public elevator,
and went to his office and inquired of Captain Fritz, and I was
informed that he was not there, that he had gone to the hospital. I
then asked him where was Jack Rubin.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, you had been informed at that time that the
last name of Jack Ruby was Rubin, R-u-b-i-n?
Mr. SORRELS. I still--as far as I knew, it was R-u-b-i-n, because that
is the way I gave it. I asked him where he was, and they said he was on
the fifth floor. And I said I would like to talk to him. And----
Mr. HUBERT. Who did you say that to?
Mr. SORRELS. I do not recall who it was--some of the detectives down
there.
Mr. HUBERT. In Fritz’ office?
Mr. SORRELS. In Captain Fritz’ office; yes. And Officer Dean was
instructed to take me up to where he was.
Mr. HUBERT. Who instructed Dean to do that?
Mr. SORRELS. The same officer I was talking to--I don’t remember who it
was, but someone apparently----
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Dean prior to that time?