Mr. HUBERT. Before you go into that, would you tell us about the
security measures that you observed with reference to protecting the
person of Oswald from the time you first saw him, say up until the time
you have reached now.
Mr. SORRELS. As far as I know, there was no one except authorized
officers in that particular area at that time. I did not see anyone
that I recognized to be other than an officer.
Mr. HUBERT. No news people in the corridor of the third floor?
Mr. SORRELS. I am talking about inside the office now. In the corridor,
that was an entirely different situation because there were cameras set
up, tripods, still photographers, photographers with cameras in their
hands, and newspapermen in large numbers in the hallways.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, for example, when Captain Fritz afforded you an
opportunity to speak to Oswald and indicated that you could do so at
a little office around the corner, did that mean that you had to pass
Oswald out of Fritz’ office, and through this third floor corridor,
where all the newsmen were gathered?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. That was still within Fritz’ office?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; in other words, there was an office there, and
Captain Fritz had an office built within that office--just merely to
take him out of the door and right around the corner of his inside
office there.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you did interview Oswald.
Mr. SORRELS. I talked to him, started asking him questions, and he was
belligerent and arrogant in his attitude and he said to me, “I don’t
know who you fellows are, a bunch of cops.”
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you speak to him?
Mr. SORRELS. Not very long.
Mr. HUBERT. In point of time.
Mr. SORRELS. Not over--I don’t think over 10 minutes at the most.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what happened to him after that?
Mr. SORRELS. As far as I know, he was taken back to the jail.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, taking him back to the jail would involve passing him
out of Fritz’ office, through the corridor, and to the jail elevator,
is that correct?
Mr. SORRELS. That is correct; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us what security precautions you observed with
reference to his person after he was out of Fritz’ office?
Mr. SORRELS. They of course had him handcuffed when they removed
him, and several detectives accompanied him as they left out, in
front--someone went ahead. And as I recall it there was at least one on
the side, and then some brought up the rear.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not go up to the jail?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe any system of identification of the people
who were on the third floor?
Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, when I first went down there I had no
particular difficulty getting in, because most of the officers there
know me, from my years of being in that city. But subsequent to
that time I would have to identify myself many times. This was to
uniformed police officers that were on duty. And I would have to show
my commission book in order to get into Captain Fritz’ office, or else
get into the executive offices there, where the chief of police and the
deputy chief offices were located.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe any officers posted at the entrances to the
area, to the third floor area?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were they?
Mr. SORRELS. By the elevator, and then there were uniformed officers at
Captain Fritz’ door.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe them requiring identification by other
persons? I mean you described how they required you to identify
yourself. Did you notice whether they did so with other people, and if
so, what did they do?
Mr. SORRELS. I cannot say that I did, because usually when I get
through identifying myself, I either went to the executive suite, where
the chief’s office was, or right direct to Captain Fritz’ office. But
on a number of occasions, the officers that were on duty there, before
I can get my commission book out, some of the newsmen or photographers
there that knew me would say, “He is Sorrels of the Secret Service.”
I, upon being recognized and identifying myself, would be admitted.
Some of the officers on duty there of course after the second or third
time they would recognize me, and I would have no difficulty getting
in. But I cannot say that I saw anyone else being required to identify
themselves, because I did not hang around the places where the officers
were.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that the security conditions that you just
described were in effect for the entire period of November 22 through
November 24--that is, on the third floor?
Mr. SORRELS. Captain Fritz’ office definitely yes--going into his
office. I do not recall having to identify myself to get onto the third
floor on the 22d when I first got down there. But subsequent to that
time, I do recall having to identify myself almost every time I went up
there.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the general condition of the third floor area from
point of personnel, equipment, and so forth?
Mr. SORRELS. I guess you could term it more or less deplorable, because
of the fact that they had so many cameras with tripods and cables and
wires and photographers and reporters that you would have to step
over tripods and wires and almost elbow your way to get in and out of
the place. And every time you would come out of it--Captain Fritz’
office--they would turn on those bright lights, and you would have to
shield your eyes almost to keep from being temporarily blinded.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you mean--that last condition you described took place
when anybody came out of Fritz’ office, or when they came out with
Oswald?
Mr. SORRELS. No--I would not say just anybody, but many times when I
would start out, the minute they would see anyone coming out of the
door, they would turn the lights on, I guess to be prepared in case
Oswald or anyone else that they wished to photograph would come out.
Mr. HUBERT. During the period that we are talking about, that is, say,
from the arrest of Oswald the first time you saw him until the 24th, I
take it that you observed Oswald being moved from Captain Fritz’ office
to the jail elevator at least quite a number of times.
Mr. SORRELS. I can only recall two times, I believe. The first time is
when he was taken out of Captain Fritz’ office on the afternoon of the
22d. Then there were two other occasions I knew of when he was brought
back into Captain Fritz’ office and when he was taken out. I remember
that many times. In other words, about three going out and two coming
in I can definitely recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you recall that while he was being so moved on any
one of those occasions, that he was addressed by the press or questions
asked him, or remarks made to him?
Mr. SORRELS. No, because the time that I saw him he was in Captain
Fritz’ office or being removed from his office. I never saw him in the
hallway that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I thought you had mentioned a little while ago that
on the first occasion you did observe him--after you had interviewed
him for about 10 minutes--you did observe him move out of Fritz’ office
and go to the elevator.
Mr. SORRELS. I think your question, as I understand it, sir, was that
he was removed from Captain Fritz’ office to the elevator. I did not
see him taken down the hallway.
Mr. HUBERT. I see; I did misunderstand you.
Mr. SORRELS. Sorry.
Mr. HUBERT. So you do not know really whether or not any news media or
any other people asked him questions and made remarks to him while he
was going from Fritz’ office to the elevator.
Mr. SORRELS. Not of my personal knowledge; no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Could those news people see into Fritz’ office from the
hallway?
Mr. SORRELS. They could see into the outer office, but they could not
very well see into his office unless they actually came inside the
office within which his office is located. You have got one door that
faces on the west side of the office, and then Captain Fritz’ there
faces north. So that it would be a question of someone might see just a
corner portion of his office from the hallway door, which is glass at
the top, but they would not be able to see anyone sitting, for example,
where Oswald would have been sitting at the time that I saw him in
Captain Fritz’ office.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, there was a glass door to what might be
called the outer office of Captain Fritz’ office.
Mr. SORRELS. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. But the inner office, while it had a glass door, it did not
face on an area in which the press was located.
Mr. SORRELS. That’s right. It also had Venetian-type blinds on the
doors, and the other part of his office was glass from the upper part.
Mr. HUBERT. While you were up there at any time during the period we
are talking about, did you ever observe anyone known to you to be a
civilian who was not either a police officer or connected with the news
media in some way?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I do not; well, I will take that back. You are talking
about when Oswald was around?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, yes. But also I want to broaden it to any time.
Mr. SORRELS. The reason I asked that question is that Jack Ruby’s
sister was in his office with another lady after Ruby was in custody,
and at that time they were in there with Mr. Jim Underwood from radio
station KRLD who was trying to make arrangements for Ruby’s sister to
get up in the jail to see him. But prior to that, I do not know, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, were you present at a meeting at which the news media
were present and Oswald was brought into an assembly room, in which the
news media were assembled?
Mr. SORRELS. I was present when Oswald was brought into what is called
the lineup room, which is also the assembly room. They have the lineup
section at one end of it. That was on the evening of November 22. At
that time it was my request, because a witness who had been interviewed
by me, and who had seen the person fire the third shot from the
window of the Book Depository Building, I had gotten in touch with
him through one of our agents, and he was brought down there for the
specific purpose of being able to see Oswald, because when he was first
interviewed by me he stated that he thought he could identify him.
Mr. HUBERT. That was in fact, however, a true lineup for the purpose of
identification.
Mr. SORRELS. I am sorry--I did not understand the question.
Mr. HUBERT. I said that was a true lineup for the purpose of
identification.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I was speaking of another meeting where the assembly room
usually used for the lineup was used to give the press an opportunity
to see Oswald.
Mr. SORRELS. I was not present. That is the only time I saw Oswald in
the lineup.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware at any time on the 22d of the concern
expressed by Mr. J. Edgar Hoover in regard to the security of Oswald,
and allegedly transmitted to the Dallas people?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you become aware of that later?
Mr. SORRELS. I do not recall ever having heard anything to that effect.
Mr. HUBERT. Even now you do not?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Jack Ruby at all?
Mr. SORRELS. Not before this incident took place; no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not even know he existed?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir. As a matter of fact, when I first heard Oswald
had been shot, I understood the name to be Jack Rubin, and in my
first report to my headquarters office I gave them the name of Jack
Rubin--R-u-b-i-n, an operator of a nightclub. That is the first
information I got. I just misunderstood the pronunciation of the last
word.
Mr. HUBERT. I think I have already asked this question in a general
way--that is to say, you have covered the area in a general way. But I
think for the record I should make it more specific.
You have now come to know a man by the name of Jack Ruby, to the extent
that you could recognize him, I suppose.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us whether you saw him in or about the police
department building at any time after the President was shot, and until
Ruby shot Oswald?
Mr. SORRELS. I have no recollection of having seen a man whom I know
now to be Jack Ruby before I saw him in the Dallas City Jail on the
fifth floor.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, we can pass, I think, for my purposes--and mind you,
Mr. Stern might cover some of these areas again, but this is the way
this is being handled.
You did see Oswald, I think, on Sunday morning, November 24?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us where and at what time?
Mr. SORRELS. That was in the office of Capt. Will Fritz of the homicide
division of the Dallas Police Department. It was somewhere around 11
o’clock in the morning, and he was removed from Captain Fritz’ office
at approximately I guess about 11:15.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of your interviewing him that morning?
Mr. SORRELS. We, of course, were interested in any statement that
Oswald might make relating to any phase of the assassination of the
President. Particularly, I was interested in trying to obtain an
admission from him that he had used the name of A. Hidell as an alias,
because information had been developed that he had purchased the rifle
which was found on the sixth floor of the Book Depository under the
name of A. Hidell.
There was a change of address card which he had filed in New Orleans,
as I recall it, on which it was shown that persons to receive mail at
the address given, the name of A. Hidell appeared. And after Captain
Fritz got through questioning him on the morning of November 24, he
asked if any of the officers present in the room desired to ask him any
questions. And I said, “Yes; I would like to ask him a question.”
In the meantime, Chief of Police Jesse Curry had come to Captain Fritz’
office, and inquired about the delay in moving him out. And Captain
Fritz informed that he was still talking to him.