Mr. GRAVES. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could one see Oswald putting on his sweater, for example?
Mr. GRAVES. Maybe not that, but he could have seen us pass it over
to him. I believe those blinds were open there on--coming out to the
secretary’s office there. I believe they were. I’m not sure about
that, but if they were open they could have seen from the front door
standing at the hallway at an angle. They could have seen that sweater
or clothes changing hands. I don’t believe where Oswald was standing
he could see him from that angle, but I--like I said, a good, sharp
newsman knowing the activity, he could see and naturally know that
something was fixing to happen.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived at the elevators on the third floor, was
the elevator there waiting for you?
Mr. GRAVES. I think it was waiting right there for us.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, which elevator did you come down in?
Mr. GRAVES. It is called the inside jail elevator, which is used only
for the transfer of prisoners from one floor to the other and basement.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And who went into the elevator with you?
Mr. GRAVES. Well, it was Leavelle, Montgomery, Swain, and Captain Fritz
and myself and, of course, Oswald.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was Chief Curry at that time?
Mr. GRAVES. I don’t know. He left just before we did and I don’t know
where he went.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you estimate Chief Curry left before you
people walked out of the homicide bureau with Oswald?
Mr. GRAVES. You know, I couldn’t tell you. I--I--actually, the chief
could have been standing in there somewhere and I wouldn’t know
it--because when we were given the final go to get him ready or get his
sweater on him, I didn’t pay any attention to who else was in there or
what happened. They told me to get him ready and walked out with him.
He could have left a few minutes ahead of us; I don’t know, it would be
a guess, because I really don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, what happened when you got to the basement?
Mr. GRAVES. Well, we got down to the basement. We hesitated on the
elevator until Captain Fritz and Lieutenant Swain stepped out. Then we
followed them around the outside exit door into the hallway which leads
to the ramp and then hesitated there a little bit with Oswald so they
could check out there and see that everything was all right, and when
we got the go ahead sign that everything was all right we walked out
with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how many steps did you take before something happened?
Mr. GRAVES. You mean after we walked out in the hallway?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. GRAVES. It is approximately 15 feet from where I was to the jail
house door where we came out into the hallway, roughly 15 feet.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jack Ruby move out of the crowd?
Mr. GRAVES. No; I didn’t see Jack Ruby move out of the crowd.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the first time that you noticed Jack Ruby?
Mr. GRAVES. I estimated before I saw the film it was a split second
before he pulled that trigger and actually, he was taking a step and
coming down like so [indicating]. I caught him out of the corner of my
eye and I thought that I started reaching for him at that moment, which
the film indicates that I did, which happened quickly, as you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. GRAVES. Just a matter of simultaneous movement. You just move when
you see something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually see the gun before you heard it--heard
the shots fired?
Mr. GRAVES. Yes; in fact, that is the first thing I saw coming that
way, and I just started after it, I guess, automatically, nothing else
to do, that I could see.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see how the newsmen were spread out as you walked
out of that hallway?
Mr. GRAVES. I saw how they weren’t spread out. I was under the
impression there wouldn’t be any news media inside that rampway, that
they would be behind that area over there, but they were in the way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you get that impression?
Mr. GRAVES. Well, Chief Curry told Captain Fritz that the security was
taken care of, that there wouldn’t be nobody in that ramp. Anyway,
that cameras would be over behind that rail of that ramp. So, what
we expected to find was our officers along the side there, but we
found newsmen inside that ramp, in fact, in the way of that car. Now,
we--Captain Fritz sent Dhority and Brown and Beck on down to the
basement in plenty of time to get that car up there for us, and when
they got down there and run into mass confusion of pressmen, we almost
backed over some of them to get up there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after Fritz sent Dhority and Brown down, did they
send word back up to Fritz’ office that everything was ready in the
basement?
Mr. GRAVES. Somebody did. I believe Baker called--Lieutenant Baker
called down from our office to check with the jail downstairs and see
that everything was ready. Somebody gave them the word. I don’t know
whether it was Lieutenant Wiggins or who told them that it was all
right. Everything was in order.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you were quite surprised when you saw these news
people?
Mr. GRAVES. I was surprised that they were rubbing my elbow. You know,
if you saw that film, you saw one of them with a mike in his hand. He
actually rubbed my elbow. We were in a slight turn when this thing
happened, and my attention had been called to that car door, and this
joker was standing there with a microphone in his hand, and others
that--I don’t know if they were newsmen--they weren’t officers--had
cameras around their necks and everything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As you looked up at that line of news people, from
your left over to the TV cameras, how many lines deep is it your
recollection that they were?
Mr. GRAVES. Well, I would say two or three deep until they crossed that
ramp and went down the side. Might not have been more than one deep
there. Might not have been much room, because the car was trying to
come in there. Might have been two deep. I know there was a line of men
there, and how deep I don’t know. I saw through the corner of my eye a
movement over there of men.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As you walked out, did you notice any police officers that
you recognized?
Mr. GRAVES. Oh, yes; I recognized officers standing around the walls
there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As you walked out, did you see Officer Harrison?
Mr. GRAVES. No; I didn’t see him. Matter of fact, I never did see him
until it was all over. You are talking about “Blackie”?
Mr. GRIFFIN. “Blackie” Harrison; W. J. Harrison.
Mr. GRAVES. I didn’t see him until it was all over.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you saw Jack come forward with the gun in his hand,
did you hear anybody say anything?
Mr. GRAVES. I heard noise. There was a racing of a motor and noises,
talking going on. As I say, my attention had been directed to that car,
and we had already turned, looked in that direction and something could
have been said, but as I said, I heard noises but just exactly what was
said I wasn’t able to determine.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you remember doing when Jack came forward with the
gun?
Mr. GRAVES. I remember going after the gun. Just the moment I saw him,
that is what I actually did, was go for the gun.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you wrestle with him? With Jack?
Mr. GRAVES. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you tell us what you remember Jack Ruby doing from
the time you saw him and while you wrestled with him and so forth?
Mr. GRAVES. Well, I grabbed his arm by the wrist with my left hand, and
grabbed right over the gun with my right hand simultaneously.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You grabbed the arm holding the gun?
Mr. GRAVES. Yes; and jerked it down and across my leg and turned my
back to him, and, of course, he was trying to pull back, and was
squeezing on that trigger like so [indicating].
I had his wrist here [indicating], and I could feel it, and I remember
saying, “turn it loose. Turn it loose.” You know, like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are making a motion like you are twisting his arm?
Mr. GRAVES. Yes; I was. See, I had it like this, and I had got that
arm and then twisted that gun like that [indicating], right out of his
hand, see.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me indicate for the record that you have shown that
you twisted his arm 180°.
Mr. GRAVES. Until he released it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Until he released the gun?
Mr. GRAVES. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was it from the time you released--grabbed his
arm until he released the gun?
Mr. GRAVES. Just a matter of seconds.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It was not a long struggle?
Mr. GRAVES. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Fairly easy to wrestle the gun away?
Mr. GRAVES. Put it this way. It wasn’t easy because he had a grip on
the gun, but the way I took it, he had to turn it loose. I had his
arm--kind of hard to explain--take your arm and bend it over my leg
like that and twist down on it like that [indicating]. You have got to
give.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are bending the arm over your leg?
Mr. GRAVES. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did Jack say anything?
Mr. GRAVES. He didn’t say anything to me. I understand that he said
something, that is, some things to the officer that took him in. I----
Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean, as you were struggling with him?
Mr. GRAVES. No; not to me. I had his arm over and my back to him and,
of course, officers were covering him up, and when I got the gun loose
from him, of course, they snatched him away from me, and by the time I
got straightened up to check that gun and see if the hammer was back or
not, they had already taken him into the jail office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do there? You were standing there or lying?
Mr. GRAVES. I was standing. I never did go down.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Standing with the gun in your hand, what did you do at
that point?
Mr. GRAVES. Put the gun in my pocket and went on inside the jail office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived inside the jail office, where was Ruby?
Mr. GRAVES. Ruby was, I believe, to my right; just to my right, to the
right of the jail office door. Of course, there were men around there
and Oswald was back----
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there?
Mr. GRAVES. I didn’t remain with Ruby at all. Just kind of hesitated
and looked over and went on. I believe Montgomery asked me if I got the
gun and I said, “Yes,” and kept on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you walk?
Mr. GRAVES. Walked back to where Oswald was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear him say anything?
Mr. GRAVES. I didn’t hear him say anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you got back to where Oswald was?
Mr. GRAVES. Stood there and watched the doctor work with him until the
ambulance came.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. GRAVES. Well, they put him in the ambulance and I got in the
ambulance with him and went to Parkland Hospital and got off there
and took him right into emergency and worked with him a few minutes.
And got him prepared for the operating room, and, so, we caught the
elevator with him and with the doctors and nurses and went on up to
the second floor, and I changed into one of those scrub uniforms and
crepe-soled shoes and went over to the door of the operating room,
where I stayed until such time as he was pronounced dead.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Outside of the operating room?
Mr. GRAVES. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As you were standing outside of the operating room, did
you hear discussion about how Ruby got into the building?
Mr. GRAVES. No; I didn’t--an FBI man came up there a little later and
stood with me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To go back just a minute, you have already told me this
before in an earlier interview, but I want to make this clear for the
record. You knew Ruby before this occasion when you saw him shoot
Oswald?
Mr. GRAVES. I will tell you how I knew Ruby. He opened a joint, a
dancehall down on South Ervay called the Silver Spur something like 10
years ago, approximately. That is where I first knew Jack Ruby existed.
Since that time I have just known about Jack Ruby----
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know him down there?
Mr. GRAVES. Well, as a joint operator, you know, when you work in a
uniform that is part of the business, to know who runs places.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What bureau were you in at that time?
Mr. GRAVES. I was in the radio patrol bureau at that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
Mr. GRAVES. And later I learned that he opened a place out on Oak Lawn
called The Vegas Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Ruby in the police department over the years
before that?
Mr. GRAVES. I have never in my entire time at that police station seen
Jack Ruby in the police station. Now, it is possible Jack was down
there. I know he has been in jail, but to say that he, like some people
do hang around the police station, I have never seen him do that, and
I have worked all hours. That still doesn’t mean that he couldn’t
have been coming in there. However, with someone that worked opposite
hours to me--and I wouldn’t see him, but during the time that I have
been there I have never seen him hanging around the police station.
You know, speculation is, is that he is a friend of the police and so
forth. He might have done some policeman some favor, I don’t know that
to be true, so, it would be speculating on my part to say that he was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain at Parkland Hospital?
Mr. GRAVES. Oh, I’d hate to say this for the record, not seeing my
report. Until he died. This in the basement happened about 11:10, or
11:19, and we reached Parkland a few minutes after. He was pronounced
dead at 1 something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t really care about the exact time. We are going to
get the time records and check it out there but what I am trying to
establish is when you learned that he was dead, what did you do?
Mr. GRAVES. Well, of course, we made arrangements to get the
pathologist up there and maintaining guards over him, even during the
time he was in the morgue. We discussed that, and then Clardy and Brown
were charged with that responsibility, and I changed clothes and me and
Leavelle, I believe me and Leavelle came back to city hall with Officer
Burgess.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time would you say he got back to the city hall?
Mr. GRAVES. Well, again, I wouldn’t want to say definitely. I think
somewhere around 2:30 or 3:45, somewhere in that vicinity.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Up to the time that you got back to city hall, had you
heard anything about how Ruby might have gotten into the basement?
Mr. GRAVES. No; I hadn’t, sure hadn’t. Of course, everyone was
wondering at that point how it happened and how he got in there, but I
hadn’t heard anything at that point. Hadn’t seen or been around anybody
except those that I went out there with and they didn’t know any more
than I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got back to the police department, what did you
do?
Mr. GRAVES. I went back to the office, of course.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Homicide bureau?
Mr. GRAVES. Homicide bureau.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was there at the time?
Mr. GRAVES. Well, frankly, I don’t remember who all were in the office.
I know Jack Ruby was in Captain Fritz’ office talking with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else was in Captain Fritz’ office at the time?
Mr. GRAVES. I don’t know, frankly. That window blind was open there and
I could see Jack Ruby, and I could see Captain Fritz and some other
people were in there, but just who, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was Jack Ruby fully clothed at the time?
Mr. GRAVES. I believe they had already put some white clothes on him,
jail clothes, taken his suit off of him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you go into Captain Fritz’ office?
Mr. GRAVES. No; I didn’t. I didn’t see Jack Ruby anymore until they
transferred him to the county.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to any police officer that day about how Ruby
got into the jail?
Mr. GRAVES. As I say, I just heard rumors going around, and at this
point I don’t really remember who related it to me, but--there was
rumors that he----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember as you got back there what the first rumor
was that you heard circulating?
Mr. GRAVES. Yes; that he slipped in the basement by a squad car when
they drove out the north ramp.