Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, I understand about the time that the
armored car arrived, or was it shortly after the armored car arrived,
you had a conversation with Lieutenant Pierce?
Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much after the armored car arrived would you say that
conversation occurred?
Mr. DEAN. Five minutes after the armored car arrived.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We don't need to mark that. And this conversation with
Lieutenant Pierce occurred in the entranceway, off the Main Street ramp
toward the jail office?
Mr. DEAN. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else there when you talked with Pierce?
Mr. DEAN. There were several people around, but they didn't hear his
instructions to me, I am sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. What did Pierce tell you?
Mr. DEAN. He said for me to go to the armored car, to the rear of the
armored car, and to get him two men to go with him, and he said, "Now."
Sergeant Putnam was maybe 15 or 20 feet from me, and I instructed him
to get an unassigned man immediately and to go with Lieutenant Pierce,
and Lieutenant Pierce, by this time, of course, he was going to get his
car, or walking over to his car. Sergeant Putnam got--told Sergeant
Maxey to go with him, and those three got into Lieutenant Pierce's car
with Lieutenant Pierce driving, and I went to the rear of the armored
car that had backed in, which was some, I guess 30 feet, 30 to 35
feet from where the shooting was. This armored car backed down, and I
imagine it would probably be around 30 to 35 feet. As soon as I got to
the armored car I turned around and looked back, and this is when I
saw Lieutenant Pierce in this plain black car trying to get past the
newsmen and to go out the wrong way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Up the Main Street ramp?
Mr. DEAN. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is my understanding correct that from the time that
you placed your guards in the basement and then began the search, until
Pierce's car drove up the ramp, you did not leave the basement area?
Mr. DEAN. That's right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you saw Pierce's car go out of the--move out of
the garage area, who was in that car?
Mr. DEAN. Sergeant Maxey and Sergeant Putnam, Lieutenant Pierce was
driving it. I do recall that Sergeant Putnam had to get out of the car
and tell some people to move out of the way so they could drive out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where did he get out of the car?
Mr. DEAN. Just as they were turning from the basement to go up the
ramp, about this location [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him get back in the car?
Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see him get back in the car?
Mr. DEAN. Same place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So when he drove through this next line of newsmen, when
the car went through this next line of newsmen, is it your recollection
that Sergeant Putnam was back in the car, or did he follow the car up
ahead and clear these others?
Mr. DEAN. I believe he walked on up for a few steps, not too far, and
then when he did see that the way was clear he got into the car then,
but he did get out of the car to clear the way for the car to move out
of the basement.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, did you watch him go out of the ramp up there?
Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you see what he did when he got to the top of the
ramp?
Mr. DEAN. I couldn't see to the top of the ramp. It's obscured, from
where I was. I was halfway up this ramp and I couldn't see to the top
of the ramp.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you watch him, though, go up until you lost sight of
him?
Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during the period that you were looking toward
Putnam's car, were you able to see the people behind the car in this
particular--across the Main Street ramp?
Mr. DEAN. Just as a group. I mean as a group of people.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody in that group that you recognized?
Mr. DEAN. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any police officers that you recognized there,
other than Putnam?
Mr. DEAN. None that I paid any attention to. I mean if I had noticed
them I could have probably seen someone that I recognized.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Now, of course, you have known Jack Ruby for 4 or 5
years?
Mr. DEAN. I have known Jack Ruby since, I believe 19--the early part of
1960 or the early part of 1961. It was the time that I came downtown
from Oak Cliff, as a sergeant. I met him. Now, the record, or your
report from the FBI says that I had known him since 1959, which is
erroneous.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. We will do that at the end of the deposition,
because I want to get that straightened out.
Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you knew Ruby well enough so that you would recognize
him on sight?
Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you see Ruby in that area there?
Mr. DEAN. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after you lost sight of Pierce's car going up the
ramp, what did you do?
Mr. DEAN. Well, my attention was focused to this point, because this
was a tense time, and I was, of course, watching the exit here from the
jail office [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you watch how the security developed along
in here; what the officers did to maintain security along here
[indicating]?
Mr. DEAN. I knew that they had just lined up. However, I didn't pay any
attention particularly to this at the time. I knew that Oswald was, in
all probability, going to be brought out pretty soon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As you looked toward the Main Street ramp and saw the
newsmen re-form along there, can you recall how deep this line of
newsmen was? Do you understand what I mean by how deep?
Mr. DEAN. You mean lengthwise?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. DEAN. It was probably going to about somewhere along here. They
were all trying to be within view of the----[indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there just a single line along there or were there
four of five or six different lines; you know, four or five behind each
other, or how many?
Mr. DEAN. I know there was a double line and possibly some were
standing behind them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, had you given any instructions prior to the time that
Rio Pierce's car went up the ramp, to any men as to how to maintain
security along this line of newsmen?
Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I hadn't. The majority of those, I think, were
detectives or plainclothesmen.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if anybody had responsibility for giving
instructions to that group?
Mr. DEAN. To my knowledge, I don't know of anyone. I am sure that they
did, but I don't know who did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you receive instructions from anybody concerning how
to maintain security along the path from the jail office door to the
car that Oswald would be loaded into?
Mr. DEAN. No, sir; at one time I know that there were several cameras
set up in this area, and Chief Batchelor told them that they would have
to leave this area and move to the basement area. I was present during
Chief Batchelor's--or when he told these TV men to move out of that
area, inside the jail office, that----
Mr. GRIFFIN. TV cameras inside the jail office?
Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; and lights set up. This was, I believe, before the
search or shortly after the search. I am thinking it was shortly after
the search, that these men were told to move out of this area and move
their cameras and equipment out into the garage portion of the basement.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, sergeant, did there come a time when you learned that
the route was being changed?
Mr. DEAN. The route to the sheriff's office?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. DEAN. This was--I believe I received both of those instructions
when I assigned those men. I had already assigned--well, I do know that
I had already assigned all these men along this traffic route, and then
it had been changed. Captain Talbert said, "No; they are not going to
use Main Street--or Elm Street. They are going to use Main," I believe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you learn this after you had already sent the men out?
Mr. DEAN. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, is there anything that makes you sure about that?
Mr. DEAN. Because I reassigned them, at the same time I briefed them,
and made these other assignments. I learned that the route had been
changed, and I reassigned them, at the same time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you assign a man to the corner of Main and Pearl
Expressway?
Mr. DEAN. Yes; I know that I did, but I can't recall who it was. I have
that information in my locker, my original assignments.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you have a lot of notes in your locker, or you
have some notes?
Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; at a later time I will bring those to you, if you
like.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I would very much appreciate it. Do you want to make a
note of that? If you send them over to us tomorrow, I would appreciate
that very much.
Mr. DEAN. Tomorrow?