Mr. WATSON. I'd say 3 to 4 years, in my estimate. I would say 2 to 4
years. I couldn't be sure. It has been a long time.
Mr. HUBERT. When you did see him, did you recognize him?
Mr. WATSON. No, sir; I believe I would have recognized him in his place
and I did recognize him after the shooting only because I saw two or
three people call his name. Then I did recognize him.
Mr. HUBERT. If you will step over here and have a look at this mockup
here on the basement area, generally familiarize yourself with it,
there is the jail office, and that is the jail elevator, the corridor
entrance, the swinging door, the corridor outside the swinging door.
There is the flat part of the ramp. There are the two inclines back
there. This is the parking area and that is the ramp coming from the
parking area to the ramp between Main and Commerce. I have also here
a chart which I have marked for purposes of identification, "Dallas,
Tex., March 26, 1964. Exhibit 5105, deposition of J. C. Watson." And I
have put below it my name and I will ask you to sign your name so that
the record may show that we are talking about the same document. Now,
looking at the mockup first, I would like you to show me on the mockup
where you were standing at the time of the shooting, and if you had
changed positions from the time you first went in there indicate that
so that we can mark the several positions that you might have been in.
Mr. WATSON. I took a position--you want it here, or over here?
Mr. HUBERT. I want you to fix it.
Mr. WATSON. Generally right here [indicating]. And I had more or less,
until we--just previous to the time they brought Oswald down, I did
take a point near this corner, out somewhere, a point about like this
[indicating].
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am marking--is this right? Right here?
Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I am marking a circle.
Mr. WATSON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. At the spot which you have indicated on the mockup?
Mr. WATSON. That is the general place.
Mr. HUBERT. The general place.
Mr. WATSON. More or less milling around from there over to here, 5 or 6
feet until right at the----
Mr. HUBERT. The position I have marked with the circle is the position
you were in at the time of the shooting, is that right?
Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I have written on the map, "Position of J. C. Watson at
time of shooting," and I have encircled it and connected it with a line
into the circle which you have indicated was the position that you
were standing in at the moment of the shooting. As I understand your
testimony, you were more or less moving up and down along that position?
Mr. WATSON. Well, that would have been previous, until the time they
were bringing him down. Right at the moment, the only difference would
be we were probably back--I would probably have been back, I would
say, level with the curb line, but at the moment they come out the
photographers--and there were some photographers right in this corner,
and one more officer, I think, to my left, and more or less--we moved
forward just probably a couple of feet, or three. We didn't move over 2
or 3 feet.
Mr. HUBERT. You want to make this comment about the position I have
marked as your position at the time of the shooting, you say that it is
correct, that prior to the shooting you were perhaps 2 or 3 feet--
Mr. WATSON. Two feet.
Mr. HUBERT. Two feet back in the direction of Main Street?
Mr. WATSON. Yes; only because as the photographers come forward, we
tend to come forward and kind of----
Mr. HUBERT. So, I am going to mark another circle then about 2 feet.
This is not going to be accurate, but the purpose of the circle is to
show your position prior to the shooting.
Mr. WATSON. They bring anyone down, people all naturally seem to move
forward a little, just close in a little.
Mr. HUBERT. I have written on the map and encircled the following
language. "Position of J. C. Watson prior to the shooting." I'll
connect that with a circle, does that conform with your understanding
of the situation?
Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what caused you to move forward in that way?
Mr. WATSON. Just because the photographers and everyone seemed to just
move forward a little, just to keep in line.
Mr. HUBERT. As Oswald was coming out?
Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. So, that accounts for the fact that your position at the
moment of shooting was a little further towards Oswald than it would
have been had you not moved at all, and that difference is about 2 feet?
Mr. WATSON. Well, I would say not necessarily toward him, just toward
the direction he was going.
Mr. HUBERT. He was going; yes. All right, sir. Do you remember who was
on your left? What officer was on your left?
Mr. WATSON. I believe Blackie Harrison was on my left, I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. Was any officer on your right?
Mr. WATSON. Not between me and the corner. I don't know whether there
was one past the corner of the building between there and the office or
not.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think there was only the two of you, you and Blackie
Harrison?
Mr. WATSON. Well, there had been one or two others over there.
Mr. HUBERT. Right. I don't--only you and Harrison keeping back the
press from the Main Street ramp area?
Mr. WATSON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Only you two?
Mr. WATSON. Of course, the press was actually in the basement area,
and on the fence there on the guard rail and then at the time they had
already--so many of them had gotten over the rail, and were just inside
on the ramp area.
Mr. HUBERT. I'm going to mark an area just by making a rough oblong
figure in which I am writing in the middle "Area A," and I ask you if
it is that area that you are talking about that you were standing in
front of?
Mr. WATSON. Just practically; yes. I was in front of, and to the right
of it.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; and how many people do you suppose there were in that
area?
Mr. WATSON. In that "Area A"?
Mr. HUBERT. Back of you and Harrison?
Mr. WATSON. Not many.
Mr. HUBERT. Not any at all?
Mr. WATSON. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I thought you said they surged forward?
Mr. WATSON. They are over from this corner, over to about--some point
right out here [indicating], and they come over the fence and right in
this area right here [indicating]. That----
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am marking a line with the numbers "1," to "2,"
encircled, is that the line that you are talking about that depress----
Mr. WATSON. From that point "1" over to just past this corner was the
only area that I know of any photographers being in. That is where they
were supposed to be. They were all lined on the rail, but at the moment
this starts, they crawl through and come forward a little. That is what
makes me come forward a little.
Mr. HUBERT. I thought you came forward because of pressure from people
behind?
Mr. WATSON. Nobody behind me.
Mr. HUBERT. Nobody at all in here [indicating].
Mr. WATSON. I think one or two, but no officers behind me.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby come forward?
Mr. WATSON. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you first see Ruby?
Mr. WATSON. I saw him underneath four or five detectives immediately
at my feet in front of me after the shooting. Did not see--couldn't
have told whether it was white or colored until they had him in the
jail office. Four or five detectives completely smothering him. I was
standing there watching the crowd, looked down once or twice. Couldn't
tell who it was.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you first become aware that there was a shooting?
Mr. WATSON. What do you mean? What are you--How are you going to
pinpoint it----
Mr. HUBERT. When you heard the shot?
Mr. WATSON. When I heard the shot; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't see anybody lunge forward?
Mr. WATSON. I glanced at Captain Fritz. I looked at Captain Fritz, just
looked at the expression on his face, and I looked at Oswald. Second
time I had seen him, just the expression. I noticed the officers behind
him back toward the jail office, just a--momentarily, and I heard the
shot up there.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your head was turned in the direction of
the jail office and Ruby apparently came up from your left?
Mr. WATSON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. From the direction on your left?
Mr. WATSON. But, your head was turned away from the area?
Mr. WATSON. Glaring spotlight. We looked--straight ahead, to the right,
wouldn't look at the bright lights.
Mr. HUBERT. So, you don't know where he came from?
Mr. WATSON. No, sir; I assume where he come from but I don't know where
he come from. I know where he had to come from.
Mr. HUBERT. Let's go back to the statement that you made about "Area
A," there, which would be area in the basement ramp, but before the
incline begins?
Mr. WATSON. Yes; just a flat place there. Starts back somewhere, like
you say, back here [indicating].
Mr. HUBERT. You're quite sure there was nobody behind you and Harrison?
Mr. WATSON. No, sir; I wouldn't have left anyone behind us. I mean, we
were in a position----
Mr. HUBERT. But I am talking about news media?
Mr. WATSON. That is what I mean, I am facing this way and all the news
media was on my left.