Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was there anybody in front of him at that point?
Mr. CROY. Yes; there was reporters.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There were reporters. Now, what did he do as he got to
these reporters?
Mr. CROY. He ran through them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he push them aside, or what?
Mr. CROY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him push them?
Mr. CROY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see a man shoved?
Mr. CROY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which man got shoved?
Mr. CROY. These reporters. He just lowered his head and ran through
them like a fullback went through a line.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you feel this man move by you, or did you first see
his motion when he was in front of you?
Mr. CROY. Caught a glimpse of his motion. I have a wide range. I could
see over here. I saw a blur coming in, and, of course, by the time I
turned, he was in position. He was already in front of me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you can't tell from how far he had been running, can
you?
Mr. CROY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell if he had taken more than one step
before you had seen him?
Mr. CROY. He had a good head of steam up, I will put it that way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Captain King?
Mr. CROY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Detective Blackie Harrison?
Mr. CROY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe the people that you saw Ruby push through?
Mr. CROY. Well, it was just a group of reporters there trying to get
closer to Ruby. I mean to Oswald.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any police officers near Ruby at the time that
he moved through that line?
Mr. CROY. There were no uniform police officers. If there were some
detectives there, I don't know, because I didn't know any of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, during this period that you were down in the
basement, the 5-minute period that you were in the basement, were you
able to distinguish the plainclothes detectives from the newspaper
people?
Mr. CROY. No; I was in the basement longer than 5 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The period that you were stationed at the base of the
ramp, the 15 minutes or more, were you able to distinguish the
uniformed officers from the newspaper people?
Mr. CROY. Uniformed officers; yes. The detectives; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You couldn't distinguish them? All right. Are you able to
describe the relative size of the newspaper reporters that Ruby moved
there, in comparison to him?
Mr. CROY. No; because this man had run through, Ruby, if it was Ruby,
was in a crouch. He was running low. The newspapermen were of average
height and average build.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How could you tell that the two men he pushed were
newspaper reporters?
Mr. CROY. I don't know. They might have been police officers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody that he pushed by have a camera in his hand or
microphone or a pad of paper or anything?
Mr. CROY. I don't recall whether they did or not. They were actually
standing in front of me and I was looking at their backs.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you seen yourself in any photographs that have been
taken of the basement area?
Mr. CROY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember where you saw that photograph? Was it a
photograph in a magazine or newspaper or something?
Mr. CROY. Television.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A TV film?
Mr. CROY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what station you saw that on?
Mr. CROY. All of them. No; I don't. They just ran it and ran it and
reran it, and every time I was in the room, someone said, "There you
are," and I looked again.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a showing that the police department made to you,
or were you shown any films by the police department?
Mr. CROY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw this film on the regular, your home TV set,
something like that?
Mr. CROY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall in any of these films a shot of Ruby
standing behind a very large man, standing right up at the back of a
very large man, a very tall man, a man perhaps a head taller than he?
Mr. CROY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you were shown these particular movie films, TV films
that you saw, could you pick yourself out for us?
Mr. CROY. Well, the ones that I saw were the ones that I was trying to
get the gun from Ruby, and the ones that they had taken after it was
all over, and I was standing in the entrance to the jail office. Those
are the only ones I have seen.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't see a picture of yourself at the time Ruby
started to move out toward Oswald?
Mr. CROY. No; I saw the reruns of it when he ran in there and shot him,
but I wasn't visible in that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did any one of these films that you watched show you
reaching out and touching the coat of Ruby?
Mr. CROY. No; none that I saw.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you met Jack Ruby before, haven't you?
Mr. CROY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many occasions had you seen Jack Ruby before he
came into the basement?
Mr. CROY. Once, that I can recall. I may have seen him many times
before that, I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As a reserve officer, do you have occasion to ride duty in
the downtown area?
Mr. CROY. Sometimes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how often would you say you did duty in the downtown
area?
Mr. CROY. Requires once a month.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any particular man that you always did duty with?
Mr. CROY. Yes; there was one that I did ride quite a bit with.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that?
Mr. CROY. J. W. Dyson.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean in the downtown area, was there one that you rode
with?
Mr. CROY. I didn't ride in any particular downtown area over twice
since I have been in the reserves, I don't guess. As a district in the
downtown area.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you have occasion to ride out in the area of the
Vegas Club?
Mr. CROY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How often would you ride in that area?
Mr. CROY. I have ridden out there a couple or three times.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you ride that area with?
Mr. CROY. I don't know. I just went to the substation and checked out
with the squad.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Officer Dyson assigned to that area?
Mr. CROY. No; he is an APB.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is West Illinois Avenue anywhere near the Vegas Club?
Mr. CROY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about around 1720 South Lamar, is that anywhere near?
Mr. CROY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever testified in any court case before?
Mr. CROY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after Ruby shot Oswald, did there come a time when
you ran up the Main Street ramp and stopped reporters leaving?
Mr. CROY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that after this scuffle on the floor?
Mr. CROY. That is hard to say, because it was right there, you might
say, right with the scuffle on the floor that they said "seal the
basement."
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you stand up there at the Main Street ramp?
Mr. CROY. Oh, just a few minutes. Then I moved to the entrance into the
jail office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there?
Mr. CROY. A good while.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what time did you go off duty?
Mr. CROY. It was about 8 o'clock that night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. During that period, did you tell anybody that you had seen
a man brush by you who you thought was Ruby?
Mr. CROY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you tell at that time?
Mr. CROY. Lieutenant McCoy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Reserve Lieutenant McCoy?
Mr. CROY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else?
Mr. CROY. I don't recall if I mentioned it or not to Reserve Lieutenant
Nicholson, I may have.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Nicholson?
Mr. CROY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Lieutenant McCoy say when you told him that?
Mr. CROY. I don't recall what he said.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you tell him about it?
Mr. CROY. We were just talking about it later on that afternoon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, what were you saying?
Mr. CROY. We were just talking about what happened in the basement,
where he was at and where I was at.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you speculating about where he came from or how he
got in or anything like that?
Mr. CROY. A little bit, I am trying to figure out what the heck
happened, really.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there other officers in the basement doing that also?
Mr. CROY. They were doing it just between theirselves. There wasn't any
group talking about it, I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time was it that you talked, approximately, to
Lieutenant McCoy?
Mr. CROY. Oh, I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, was this, you say, a short time after you left your
position up on the Main Street ramp, or was it a long time after?
Mr. CROY. It was a pretty good while after. An hour.
Mr. GRIFFIN. An hour or so?
Mr. CROY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, between the time that you told this Lieutenant McCoy
and you went off duty, what did you do?
Mr. CROY. I sat up in the city planning room.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was up there in the city planning room?
Mr. CROY. Lieutenant McCoy and Reserve Lieutenant Barney Merrell.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else you can recall?
Mr. CROY. Reserve Lieutenant Nicholson. And there was Captain Solomon
up there, and Captain Arnett, and several other reserve officers, that
we kind of set up a command post, is actually what it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you doing up there?
Mr. CROY. Making assignments.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was giving you directions?
Mr. CROY. Lieutenant McCoy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of assignments were you making?
Mr. CROY. Placing the men in different spots throughout the city hall
and seeing that they were relieved, and calling on the telephone to get
some more help.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have some time to sit around and talk?
Mr. CROY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk about what you had seen down in the
basement?
Mr. CROY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell these men out there about Ruby brushing past
you?
Mr. CROY. I talked to Lieutenant McCoy about it. I don't know whether
Mike Nicholson and Merrell were there at that particular time or not. I
don't know whether they overheard what we were talking about or not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did Captain Solomon at that time make any request
that people write reports about what they had seen?
Mr. CROY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you aware that the regular officers, these other
people who had been down in the basement, were being asked to make
reports?
Mr. CROY. No; I didn't know they were.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you expect that you would be asked to make a report of
what happened in the basement?
Mr. CROY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You expected that while you were sitting up there in the
office?
Mr. CROY. I had a pretty good hunch they would.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this statement which we have marked, a letter which
we have marked Exhibit 5052, which is a copy of a letter that you
prepared for Chief Curry, dated November 26, 1963, was that prepared
down in the police department, or was that prepared at one of your
business offices?
Mr. CROY. That was prepared at the Dallas Police Academy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that located?
Mr. CROY. On Shorecrest back of the northwest substation.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that prepared by hand?
Mr. CROY. Yes, it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you responsible for getting the typing done?
Mr. CROY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you turn that report over to?
Mr. CROY. Captain Solomon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then was it his responsibility to get the typing done?
Mr. CROY. I don't know. I just turned it in. What he did with it, I
don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it eventually come back to you?
Mr. CROY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The typed copy never came back to you?
Mr. CROY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you seen a copy of that statement since you signed it?
Mr. CROY. Just a while ago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any question in your mind but that the statement
that you signed is a complete and accurate copy of the statement that
you prepared in your own hand in the police department?
Mr. CROY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what day it was, the day you prepared that
statement?
Mr. CROY. The following Tuesday night. I don't know what date it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, Mr. Croy, why didn't you mention in this report,
dated November 26, your seeing this man you believe to be Ruby?
Mr. CROY. Why didn't I mention that in there?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. CROY. Because at that time Captain Solomon told me that there would
be another report made and I would have to go downtown to the city hall
before a stenographer, and he told me just to leave that out for the
time being, and put this in this other affidavit that you have, that
this right here was just basically to find out where we were in the
city hall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then when you prepared this other statement on December 1,
who called you and how did you come to go before Notary Public A. L.
Curtis?
Mr. CROY. He is a lieutenant. After I signed it, I took it there to be
notarized by him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, then, how did you happen to--was this done in the
police department?
Mr. CROY. Yes, it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to go to the police department that day?
Mr. CROY. They called me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who called you?
Mr. CROY. Captain Arnett.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet Captain Arnett down at the police department?
Mr. CROY. Yes, I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with him before this statement was drawn up?
Mr. CROY. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you talk to before the statement was drawn up?
Mr. CROY. Lieutenant Revill.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Lieutenant Revill have any information before him
about this, about your having seen Ruby? Did Lieutenant Revill have any
information before him about your having seen Ruby go into the, brush
by you?
Mr. CROY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He didn't have any information to that effect?
Mr. CROY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to be called down there?
Mr. CROY. Because of my position in the basement where I was standing
when he shot Oswald.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, what did Captain Solomon say to you when
you told what you had seen to Revill? Did Revill indicate that he had
heard about this before, about your having been a witness to this?
Mr. CROY. Not that I recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else there?
Mr. CROY. Yes; Lieutenant, I think his name is Cornwall, he was present.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did either of them indicate surprise by having seen this?
Mr. CROY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You got the impression from the way they spoke, or
any impression from the way they spoke, that they had heard this
information before?
Mr. CROY. Well, they didn't act surprised. They didn't act like they
didn't know about it. It kind of tied in with the other reports that
they had gotten, I presume, from the way they acted.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what was the general attitude on their part in the
taking of these statements. Did you feel that there was some, Cornwall
and Revill were concerned about this situation?
Mr. CROY. Yes; they were.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How would you describe their general attitude in this
interview?
Mr. CROY. They were very interested.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, can you tell me more about that?
Mr. CROY. No; well, I will put it this way, that it took us 8 hours to
get that up. That is how interested they were.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You talked with them for 8 hours?
Mr. CROY. On 2 different occasions. That day and the next day, for 4
hours each day. That is pretty interesting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Croy, I take it that you actually talked to them on
November, the last day of November was the first time you talked to
them, and then you signed this on the first day of December?
Mr. CROY. What it was, the stenographer took it, and then she typed it
up. Then the next day I went back down there and they re-read it to me
and went over and over and over and over the same thing over and over
again. And then I took it into Lieutenant Curtis and signed it and had
it notarized.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that examination the way you and I have been going
back and forth here?
Mr. CROY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there a number of drafts to this statement? You say
it took you 2 days to draw this up. Had you written a number?
Mr. CROY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you write something first?
Mr. CROY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they take notes as you talked with them?
Mr. CROY. No; we talked the entire thing over, and after we talked
everything over and they brought the stenographer in and we went back
over it again, then I left and she typed it up, and I came in the next
day and we went back over it again and back over it and so on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they critical of you in any way for not having
ejected Ruby the first time that you saw him in the basement?
Mr. CROY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you indicate to them at that time that you didn't know
who he was when you first saw him?
Mr. CROY. Yes; I didn't know who he was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you first saw this man, did you believe that he was a
newspaper reporter?
Mr. CROY. I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell that to Lieutenant Revill and Captain
Cornwall?
Mr. CROY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark this "Ruby location at the time Croy
saw him moving toward Oswald." Is that a fair description of what the
hieroglyphics on here mean?
Mr. CROY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark this "Dallas, Tex., Mr. Croy, 3-26-64,
Exhibit 5054," and what I have marked on is the chart upon which you
made a certain mark while you described to me what happened when you
saw a man you believed to be Ruby run toward Oswald.
Now, let me ask you to sign that, if you believe that is an accurate
copy of the real McCoy. Would you date it also?