The testimony of Capt. Cecil E. Talbert was taken at 7:30 p.m., on
March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office
Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert,
Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Capt. Cecil T. Talbert, patrol
division, Dallas Police Department.
My name is Leon D. Hubert, Jr.; I am a member of the advisory staff of
the general counsel of the President's Commission on the Assassination
of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130,
dated November 29, 1963, joint resolution of Congress 137, and the
rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the
Executive order and the joint resolutions, I have been authorized
to take a sworn deposition from you, Captain Talbert. I will state
to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is
to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Captain Talbert, the nature of the inquiry
tonight is to to determine the facts you know about the death of Oswald
and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry of
the Commission. Now, Captain Talbert, you have appeared here tonight by
virtue of a general request made by the general counsel of the staff of
the President's Commission, Mr. J. Lee Rankin. Under the rules adopted
by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior
to the taking of this deposition, but those rules also provide that a
witness may waive the 3-day notice in writing. Are you willing to waive
that notice?
Captain TALBERT. I'd like to waive it, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, will you stand and be sworn?
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Captain TALBERT. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your name?
Captain TALBERT. Cecil Earl Talbert.
Mr. HUBERT. Your age?
Captain TALBERT. I am 44.
Mr. HUBERT. Your residence?
Captain TALBERT. 1211 Toltec, Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your present occupation, sir?
Captain TALBERT. Police department. Captain of patrol division.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been with the police department?
Captain TALBERT. Seventeen years.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you held the rank of captain?
Captain TALBERT. You will have to forgive me just a minute.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, just approximately is all right.
Captain TALBERT. January 26, 1960.
Mr. HUBERT. What are your duties and responsibilities on the Dallas
Police Force?
Captain TALBERT. I have a patrol platoon. Three captains assigned to
the patrol division. Each has a platoon. We rotate around the clock and
while on duty would have the patrol function.
Mr. HUBERT. That is the patrol function throughout the city.
Captain TALBERT. Throughout the city; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is your immediate superior?
Captain TALBERT. Chief Fisher; N. T. Fisher.
Mr. HUBERT. And he is head of the patrol division in general?
Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Three captains under him?
Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Who are the other captains?
Captain TALBERT. J. M. Souter relieves me, and Capt. William Frazier,
who relieves Souter.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you in that same position with the same duties and
responsibilities on the 24th of November 1963?
Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty on the 23d of November 1963?
Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What hours did you serve then?
Captain TALBERT. Seven to three.
Mr. HUBERT. 7 a.m. to 3 p.m.?
Captain TALBERT. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go off duty at 3 p.m. on the 23d?
Captain TALBERT. Close to that, I mean close to that time; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. At the time you went off duty about 3 p.m. on the 23d of
November, had you been informed of any plans for a transfer of Oswald
to the county jail?
Captain TALBERT. Not by police supervisors. I had heard the information
the chief had given the news media who had insisted on setting up their
equipment in our jail office, or adjacent to the jail office, and he
insisted that they not set it up there, and that they would be in the
general public way, and only that they could report after 10 o'clock on
the next day.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you didn't hear that from the chief himself?
Captain TALBERT. Not from the chief. Only--that is hearsay.
Mr. HUBERT. You obtained from the radio or television or newspapers?
Captain TALBERT. Possibly radio and newspapers, yes, sir. You might
know we were attentive to all news media at the time.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what time, then, did you go on duty on the 24th?
Captain TALBERT. The morning of the 24th I reported when--I gave my
time of duty as 7 to 3. Actually, we report about an hour early so that
we can prepare the platoon, or any revision in the platoon that we have
to make. So, at approximately 6 o'clock, I reported to our office and
relieved Captain Frazier.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, at the time that you relieved Captain Frazier, did he
convey any information to you?
Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what he said?
Captain TALBERT. Said he had a communication with Sheriff Decker and
Mr. Newsom, with the FBI, and both were anxious to transfer Oswald at
the time. Transfer him immediately to the county jail, and that he had
been unable to contact the chief due to a phone malfunction. That he
couldn't call him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you what time he had received that information?
Captain TALBERT. He did; but I don't recall what time, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you of any security plans that had been made to
transfer Oswald?
Captain TALBERT. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you of any security plans that should be made,
or had been ordered?
Captain TALBERT. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he then go off duty? I am talking about Captain Frazier
now.
Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; I relieved him and he went off duty.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do then with reference to the transfer?
Captain TALBERT. Continued his efforts to contact the chief
through--going through the telephone exchange. I wanted to contact him
by telephone. He had contacted Captain Fritz with the information from
both Mr. Newsom and the sheriff, and Captain Fritz said he couldn't
transfer him until the chief authorized it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to Fritz yourself?
Captain TALBERT. No, sir; that was conveyed to me by Captain Frazier
before he left.
Mr. HUBERT. I see.
Captain TALBERT. And I got the telephone company to put a buzzer on the
chief's line, and there is no response, and they have something that is
louder than a buzzer. I can't recall the term they use, but you have
to get permission from the chief operator to utilize that. I had that
put on the chief's line, and still no response. Obviously the line was
defective, so, I had a squad sent to the chief's home with the request
that he call me.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he call you?
Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. From his home?
Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was his phone out of order?
Captain TALBERT. I don't know, sir, but by all appearances, it was out
of order. I think that latter item I was speaking of was around the
entire neighborhood, almost. It is quite loud, even though a phone may
be off the hook.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you say to the chief?
Captain TALBERT. I repeated the conversation that Frazier had told me
that the sheriff had told him, and also Mr. Newsom had told him about
two calls received by the FBI office during the night. Both by men
speaking in a calm voice and both conveyed the same message that before
Oswald reached the county jail "A hundred of us will see that he is
dead." And the request by Sheriff Decker, and Mr. Newsom, that he be
transferred immediately.
Mr. HUBERT. It was your understanding that Newsom had received a
message twice?
Captain TALBERT. His office. Not Mr. Newsom personally. His office.
Mr. HUBERT. I see. Do you know whether any such message had also been
received by the sheriff's office independently?
Captain TALBERT. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you convey that information?
Captain TALBERT. It was approximately 6:30, my conversation with Chief
Curry.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any instructions?
Captain TALBERT. He said if I would call the sheriff and Mr. Newsom,
tell them that he would be in his office between 8 and 9, and he would
contact them.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you do that?
Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. After that, what did you occupy yourself with?
Captain TALBERT. The usual duty of getting my platoon on duty and
balancing the detail.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you do anything looking toward the ultimate transfer of
Oswald?
Captain TALBERT. Not at that time; no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you begin to do anything with reference to the
transfer?
Captain TALBERT. Approximately 9 a.m. Traffic was building up rather
heavy on the downtown streets. Primarily on Commerce, people going by
the intersection of Commerce and Houston and the--viewing the Book
Depository Building, and we had a few people gathering on Commerce
Street side of the city hall.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see them gathering on the Main Street side?
Captain TALBERT. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why?
Captain TALBERT. Evidently the people who were gathering realized that
our exit side was Commerce and our entrance side was Main.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that a fact?
Captain TALBERT. That is a fact.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say internally, your traffic goes from Main to
Commerce, and goes no other way?
Captain TALBERT. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. That is a one-way ramp?
Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; all of our vehicles enter on Main Street and
exit on Commerce Street.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, there is no physical reason why it couldn't be
the opposite?
Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; there is. Commerce is one way, and makes it
more difficult to--Oh, I'm sorry. There is no physical reason.
Mr. HUBERT. No. That's all right. You have explained it. You had
misunderstood what I meant when I said, "physical."
Captain TALBERT. Sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Actually, it is an internal rule, that is, a normal rule
because of the fact that Commerce is a one-way street.
Captain TALBERT. The accessibility to the street.
Mr. HUBERT. Main is a two-way street?
Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did Chief Curry come in?
Captain TALBERT. I don't know, sir. I didn't see him all day.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't see him all day on the 24th?
Captain TALBERT. No, sir. I mean I don't recall having seen him. I
didn't converse with him. If I saw him I didn't converse with him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you take any action about looking to the movement or
transfer and the security thereof, of Oswald?
Captain TALBERT. That is a very broad statement and can we narrow it
down into my actions taken of any probable disturbance that we might
have around the city hall?
Mr. HUBERT. Just tell us what you did.
Captain TALBERT. All right, sir. At 9, or about, Lieutenant Pierce,
that is Sam Pierce.
Mr. HUBERT. That is Rio Pierce?
Captain TALBERT. Sam.
Mr. HUBERT. Sam Pierce?
Captain TALBERT. Rio Sam Pierce. R. S. Pierce. [spelling] R-i-o, just
like the river. Rio Sam Pierce is my central area lieutenant, and I
talked the situation over with him about the traffic problem, and the
people that were giving the appearance of going to start gathering on
the Commerce Street side, and what we should do about the possible
security around the city hall. It would have to alleviate having to
call the squads in over the dispatcher.
At the time, we were working on a Sunday detail, which is one of our
smallest. Sunday is a less active day, and we have fewer people working
on Sunday, that is, than we do any other. That is the day we try to get
most of our--not "most," I'm sorry, that is a poor term. We cut our
detail down on Sunday due to the fact that police activity is light.
So, I talked it over with him about what we should do about the method
of security of the area, and finally decided that if--for him to pull
three squads from each of the three substations, and four squads out
of the central station, and to pick two-men squads where possible so
that we could build up the total number of men that we had as quick as
possible.
This second platoon, the day platoon, works primarily one-man squads,
and our two-man squads are trainee squads. The trainees work with an
older officer and create a two-man squad there. Could you leave this
off just a moment? That is something----
Mr. HUBERT. All right; off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. HUBERT. All right; then, you decided to set up some system of
security for the police department building?
Captain TALBERT. I further told Lieutenant Pierce to have the basement
cleared of all personnel. Have them searched. Thorough search, and
secure it, letting only the authorized news media and police officers
into the basement.