Captain JONES. From the approximate point.
Mr. HUBERT. But you are also looking away from the point which Oswald
exited?
Captain JONES. That's right. In watching the people, I was aware, in
fact, in trying to get them out of the way.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it be correct to say that the televisions were to
your left?
Captain JONES. I think so. I mean, that is my impression, and I
cannot--I couldn't swear. I can give you the impression to the best of
my knowledge, but here is one thing that I know. I am in that area, I
think the television is to my left. I turned to make sure the people
stay out of way. Some of the previous instructions--can I go back?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Captain JONES. Some of the previous instructions that I had given to
this officer here [indicating].
Mr. HUBERT. Here?
Captain JONES. I'm sorry, just outside of the swinging doors leading
into the basement of the city hall and just after clearing the jail
office of the reporters, just keep the people out of the area. I told
both the officers and the newsmen there, "When the prisoner comes down,
you will not be allowed in this area. You will not be allowed to step
forward to take pictures, or converse with the prisoner."
Mr. HUBERT. You gave that instruction?
Captain JONES. I gave this instruction to them. I can't say to this
officer, or to that officer.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Captain JONES. Things had changed. First, I was under the impression
that the armored car would back all the way down. I didn't know whether
it could get all the way down, may do it at some intermediate point. If
it comes all the way down there would be a line. That was the--that was
where I wanted the officer here coming out of the jail office. The door
of the vehicle that opens----
Mr. HUBERT. I say, that was your idea?
Captain JONES. It was my idea, if the transporting vehicle backs all
the way to the jail door.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Captain JONES. If it comes partially down here and has to stop, which
would be somewhere around this area here [indicating], the--just
past--just at the point where the ramp starts to rise there is a beam,
I believe, or low point in the ceiling there, that if it cannot get
to that point these officers in the line here can form an =L=-shaped
line around the prisoner, between them and the two sides where the
news media had been told to stay and form a buffer in between to walk
up there. Then the change--going to put two cars up there. There is no
reason why that back car can't get all the way back to the jail office.
The original plan would be that the line of officers would be from the
jail door to the vehicle. Then they say, "Here he comes," and I am off
up here, to the point that I indicated on the map. It is too late to
get the people out of the way of the car and form the line. I am aware
that Oswald is already coming because of the furor, so, I was trying to
keep everybody out of the way and keep the way clear and I heard a shot.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Captain JONES. And I place that as to why it is my last awareness
of--the back car is ahead of, towards Commerce Street. The prisoner
is coming from back here [indicating]. The car is backing like this
[indicating]. I am looking at----
Mr. HUBERT. You were looking at the automobile?
Captain JONES. At the automobile. They say, "Here he comes." I turned
and these people back this way----
Mr. HUBERT. Looking away from the direction?
Captain JONES. Into this basement parking area. I heard a shot, and I
distinctly remember looking over my left shoulder and behind me to the
scene of the scuffle.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you see?
Captain JONES. Just mass confusion of people.
Mr. HUBERT. All right; let me ask you this; had you at any time seen
Ruby in the basement?
Captain JONES. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. At the time of the shooting, did you see him?
Captain JONES. Not at the moment of the shooting. I was looking out
into the basement area, parking area.
Mr. HUBERT. After the shooting, did you see him?
Captain JONES. I did; after he was in custody and on his feet and just
prior to them taking him into the jail office.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize him then?
Captain JONES. At that time, after having someone say it was Jack Ruby,
then I did recognize him as Jack Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him say anything?
Captain JONES. No, sir; in fact, I wasn't that close to him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have anything more to do with Ruby? Did you see him
after that?
Captain JONES. Can I continue on the chronological thing there? I don't
believe I did see him----
Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead.
Captain JONES. It will be just about that same thing that after I
turned and looking back, and also someone running out to the street,
out at the extreme edges of the crowd and all, and that is when I
hollered, "Block the exits." Or "bar the exits," or "don't let anybody
out." Or--I couldn't tell you the words I used. I shouted over my
shoulder and took a few running steps and shouting to the officers, for
some of them was running down towards the scene that I yelled, "Block
the exits, don't let anybody out." The two or three officers stopped.
I couldn't tell you who they are, and then I turned and went back down
to the scene or near the scene of the shooting, somebody says, it was
Jack Ruby. In fact, it was said more than once. I heard the words--and
they got the man standing up. I can see his head and I do recognize in
my mind that it is Jack Ruby, but--about to get him in the jail office,
shouted to that officer that way, whether he heard me or not, I don't
know, but this man here Lieutenant Swain [indicating] was having a lot
of difficulty. He was standing between point "B" on the driveway and
this circle, approximately. Standing near the television cameras, and
having difficulty keeping the television men from getting down in the
driveway. So I stopped there and I assisted him in keeping those people
back for a few minutes until we can get it cleared up. We get that more
or less under control. The people are not trying to force their way in
there, and I go into the jail office and see Oswald lying on the floor
with a bullet hole in the left side, upper rib cage, it appears to me.
His shirt has been pulled up. Whether, at that time Ruby was still in
the jail office or had started upstairs, he--it seems to me possibly he
was getting on the elevator, but I can't say for sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to Ruby at that time?
Captain JONES. I did not speak to Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him?
Captain JONES. There--if that was him getting on the elevator, or if he
was in there. After that, no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you have anything to do with the clearing of the
basement area at an earlier time?
Captain JONES. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever told as to what the original route would be
from the police department to the county jail?
Captain JONES. I was never told by some officer coming to me and
saying, this is the route. As I said, I heard some of the higher
ranking officers talking of a possible route, but I was on a
long-distance phone call at a desk nearby.
Mr. HUBERT. So, you can say to me now that you really did not know the
planned route?
Captain JONES. I was not told, and I do not know for sure what route
they were going to take. I was aware of talk and some routing being
planned.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us when you first heard that Ruby was supposed
to have come down the Main Street ramp?
Captain JONES. I don't remember; I don't understand that question, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it this way; you have heard since that Ruby
claims that he came down the Main Street ramp?
Captain JONES. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when you first heard that?
Captain JONES. When I first heard that it was probably as a result of
me being in charge for the Police Department Committee investigating
the operational security about that transfer, and why it broke down,
and that heading that committee, I am sure that was passed to me by
some of the officers who had talked to him following his arrest.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, later, on the date of the 24th, or could it
have been later than that?
Captain JONES. If I heard it prior to that, or heard rumors, the first
official knowledge that I do have would have been even following
Thanksgiving Day, for that is the time I was called back from the
vacation and called from vacation to head that investigation, and it
was subsequent to that that we had our investigation.
Mr. HUBERT. So that if you heard anything about Ruby's version of
how he got there, it would have been just passed on to you prior to
going on your vacation? That is to say, you would have heard it from
someone----
Captain JONES. I would have heard it--or put out on the radio or
newspapers or some source like that. I could have read that.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you go on vacation?