The testimony of Capt. O. A. Jones was taken at 9 a.m., on March 24,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the Dallas deposition of Capt. O. A. Jones, Forgery
Bureau, Dallas Police Department. My name is Leon D. Hubert, Jr. I am a
member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's
Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.
Under the Provisions of the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29,
1963, the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of
procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive
order and the Commission, I have been authorized to take the sworn
deposition from you, Mr. Jones. I state to you now that the general
nature on the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report
upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and
the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you Captain Jones, the nature of the inquiry today
is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any
other pertinent fact you may know about the general inquiry. Captain
Jones, you have appeared here today by virtue of a general request made
by the general counsel on the staff of the President's Commission to
Chief Curry.
Under the rules adopted by the Commission you are entitled to have a
3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition. The rules
of the Commission also provide that the witness may waive the notice.
Do you waive the 3-day notice now?
Captain JONES. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you be sworn, please?
Captain JONES. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Captain JONES. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Captain Jones, please state your full name?
Captain JONES. Orville [spelling] O-r-v-i-l-l-e Aubrey [spelling]
A-u-b-r-e-y Jones.
Mr. HUBERT. Your age?
Captain JONES. Forty-nine.
Mr. HUBERT. And your residence?
Captain JONES. 2603 Alco [spelling] A-l-c-o Avenue, Dallas 11, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your present occupation, Captain Jones?
Captain JONES. Captain in the city police department, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you held that rank, sir?
Captain JONES. April of 1957.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your particular assignment now?
Captain JONES. Commanding officer in the forgery bureau.
Mr. HUBERT. You are under Chief Stevenson?
Captain JONES. M. W. Stevenson is my superior officer.
Mr. HUBERT. And your rank and duties were the same during the period of
November 22 and 24, 1963?
Captain JONES. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Captain, I show you three documents which I am
numbering--I show you three documents upon which I am writing the
following in the lower right-hand corner. "Dallas, Texas, March 24,
1964. Exhibit No. 5054, deposition of Capt. O. A. Jones." Beneath which
I have signed my name, Leon D. Hubert. The second document which I am
endorsing "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 5055, deposition
of Capt. O. A. Jones," and I am signing my signature below that. That
document consisting of three pages, and I am initialing--two other--to
revert back for a moment to No. 5054, that has a second page and I am
placing my initials on the second page of that document in the lower
right-hand corner. Third document, I am writing on the right-hand
margin the following: "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964. Exhibit 5056.
Deposition of Capt. O. A. Jones," and I am signing my name below that.
That document containing three pages. I am taking my initials and
placing them on the second and third pages. Now, Captain, I think you
have read these three documents which I----
Captain JONES. I have; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I would like you to place your name below mine on each
one of these pages, please, and your initials below mine on the other
pages, after which I'm going to ask you some questions concerning these
documents.
Captain JONES. All right, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Just below mine and then initial the second and third page
below my initials there. Now, Captain, I think you have already stated
that you have read these three documents?
Captain JONES. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Exhibit 5054, 5055, and 5056, and I am going to ask you if,
in your opinion, those documents represent the truth, or if you have
any kind of amendments, modifications, or additions that you want to
make?
Captain JONES. There are some additions.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you state for the record what amendments or
modifications, whatever else you have to about the documents.
Captain JONES. This is off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. HUBERT. Now, back on the record. Anyhow, with reference directed at
5054, Captain, what have you to say as to that? That being a report of
Special Agents James W. Bookhout and Joseph M. Meyers, of an interview
of you by those gentlemen on November 25, 1963.
Captain JONES. First, let me say that they make reference--they are
correct, but they have grouped together under "specific instructions
that I received." I received, at two different times, that is not at
the same time. At first, when I was sent downstairs Chief Stevenson
gave me instructions to go to the Commerce Street ramp, place two
patrolmen there to assist an armored car down that ramp to get it
backed as far down as possible, down in the basement----
Mr. HUBERT. Before you leave that, do you know about what time it was?
Captain JONES. I'd say only about 11 o'clock, and it could have been
a little before because of the amount of time required on that, but I
didn't look at my watch.
Mr. HUBERT. Thank you.
Captain JONES. Do you want me to go on to the other points?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Captain JONES. The other part. In one sentence I gave, he has specific
instructions about keeping them back, and Chief Batchelor and Chief
Stevenson did so later when they came to the basement, and I called the
attention that photographers were out in the other part of the jail
office now, and there was nothing said upstairs--said about clearing
anything except what I said that one thing, except--take--taking any
detectives remaining on the third floor and placing them where I
wanted them, where I felt they would be needed. That goes into it a
little more in detail, but by having that in front of me right now.
If you could, I can show you the point that he states he instructed
me to secure the area for the transport of Lee Harvey Oswald from the
Dallas City Jail to the Dallas County Jail--with additional specific
instructions from Chief Stevenson or Chief Batchelor or to have
detectives under their supervision to question the news media to keep
the basement east of the driveway--that came up after we got down in
the basement, and it reads maybe as if it was given at another place.
Mr. HUBERT. What you have just read and commented upon is from the
first paragraph of a document 5054? Right?
Captain JONES. Yes, sir; right.
Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead now.
Captain JONES. The--in other words, the two instructions given
previously before I went to the basement were: One, to arrange to have
officers assist the armored truck which they told me was en route, to
back into the Commerce Street ramp down into the city hall and as far
as possible. Number two; take any remaining detectives from the third
floor down to the basement and place them where I thought they might be
needed.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you state for the record how you carried out those
specific orders?
Captain JONES. Yes, sir; I made a round of all CIB Bureaus, with
the exception of homicide and robbery, which was working on the
assassination, and got--I can't tell you, two or three or some
detectives that were remaining, and we went down the elevator. This
is the one I went down with the--and I don't know who they were, and
don't have any names. Didn't make a detail--but I went up and did see
Patrolman Jez and one other patrolman that I don't know his name----
Mr. HUBERT. They were in uniform?
Captain JONES. They were in uniform. They would remain and assist
the armored truck in backing down there. And the detectives that had
come with me were standing at the jail office. I had left them at the
door of the jail office, and coming back toward the ramp, I came upon
Captain Talbert, in charge of the patrol division, and told him that
Patrolman Jez and the other officer were up there and what the Chief
had said.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, have you any other comments to make
about----
Captain JONES. Now, that is all about that.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I understand that that is document 5054?
Captain JONES. Let me check on this now for sure. That is--yes; that is
all right now.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. And Exhibit 5055.
Captain JONES. May I ask you a question?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir.
Captain JONES. Now then, the instructions about checking that, you
want to get to that later that I got--where Chief Batchelor and Chief
Stevenson----
Mr. HUBERT. What I want to do is get through these documents.
Captain JONES. All right, sir. Now, our next exhibit. That would be
5055?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes. That is the letter addressed on November 26th, to
Chief J. E. Curry?
Captain JONES. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. This is a copy of the original which apparently was signed
by you?
Captain JONES. Yes, sir; that's right.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you have read it.
Captain JONES. I have read it, and only one thing on that. That is on
page 2, at the top--where I had two different directions running from
the jail office door across the ramp running east, and then I turned
and went south, and we called that east, too, but it is--only thing the
right is running, instead of east, should have read south.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is that, sir?
Captain JONES. All right, sir. I will show you. Up here this word
"east," probably should be "south."
Mr. HUBERT. Suppose we change that from "this point running east," and
I will encircle it and put the word "south," and putting my own initial
below the change, and ask you if you would----
Captain JONES. Running east from the door of the jail office to the
rail on the opposite side, and down a line from this point running
south. Yes, sir; that's right.
Mr. HUBERT. So, just initial the change then and the word "east," which
we encircled and changed to "south," and Captain Jones and myself are
initialling the change.
Captain JONES. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Other than that, do you have any changes that should be
made?
Captain JONES. Let that stand.
Mr. HUBERT. Then this document which I have identified as Exhibit
5056, being the report by the FBI, specifically by Agents Edward
Mabey and Kenneth Hughes [spelling] H-u-g-h-e-s, of an interview with
you, apparently, on December 2, 1963, and ask you if you have any
corrections to make as to that?
Captain JONES. Yes, sir; there are one or two changes that I would like
to make in that.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Captain JONES. Let's see. Can I see it just one moment, sir?
Mr. HUBERT. Sure.
Captain JONES. All right. I would like to make the following changes.
At the bottom of page 1, of Exhibit--that is 5056, I believe?
Mr. HUBERT. That's right.
Captain JONES. The last sentence that reads, "Jones assisted in holding
back the press line during the process, and gave instructions to all
officers near the jail office and the door to allow no one in the area
from the jail to the automobile, down the route the prisoner was to
take."
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what is your comment?
Captain JONES. The comment is that the sentence should have read,
"Jones assisted holding back the press lines through the process of
moving the automobile onto the ramp." The rest of the sentence refers
back to just prior to that when the instructions had been given to keep
those things clear. Immediately following the clearing of the jail
office is when I gave those instructions at that time, to hold the
people back and get those--I did not have time or the opportunity, and
did not turn at that time and tell everybody that we were trying to get
the car back up into position.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any change or comments to make upon the
document--5056?
Captain JONES. Yes, sir; on page 2, of this same exhibit.
Mr. HUBERT. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. HUBERT. Now, back on the record.
Captain JONES. Beginning with the first complete paragraph that says,
"Jones was walking up the Commerce Street ramp when he heard from
behind him, 'Here he comes,' from an unidentified individual," and on
that, there is only one change.
Whereas, Jones was walking toward the Commerce Street ramp instead of
up it, now.