Mr. GRIFFIN. Now do you remember what other officers or people were
around you?
Chief BATCHELOR. No; I don't remember who. There was a whole bunch of
people.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened when you heard the shot fired? What did you
do?
Chief BATCHELOR. Well, actually before the shot was fired, when I was
standing along here, and when somebody shouted, "Here he comes." I
started to go to that truck, that armored truck and close the doors on
it, the back doors so it could take off. And I turned to do that when I
heard the shot. I hadn't taken over a step or two over to the door when
he was shot.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do?
Chief BATCHELOR. I turned around and looked back and came over there.
There was a whole group of people had him down. It was a big----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Ruby down?
Chief BATCHELOR. Had Ruby down. They had pulled Oswald into the jail
office, and then pulled Ruby in behind him.
I went into the jail office to look at them, and they had Ruby down on
the floor on his back and was trying to handcuff him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's focus on the time when they had Ruby down on the
ground out there on the ramp, the ramp area. Where did you stand at
that point?
Chief BATCHELOR. I stood off in the crowd. I didn't even see what was
going on. There was such a crowd.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear Ruby say anything at that point?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear any of the police officers say anything?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir; not when I walked right up there to it. But
I did hear someone shout, "Jack, don't you so-and-so," but this was
before they got him down. I mean, this was almost simultaneous with the
shot.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you follow Ruby and Oswald into the jail office then?
Chief BATCHELOR. After a little bit, a minute or two after, I remained
in the jail office and asked Lieutenant Wiggins if they had called an
ambulance, and he said they had.
I walked over and looked at Oswald, and this intern had come in and was
giving him some pressure on his lower rib section.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see Ruby at that time?
Chief BATCHELOR. I saw him on the floor. I couldn't see him too well.
There was several men on top. He was still struggling in the jail
office, but they had already gotten the gun away from him and they were
trying to get him handcuffed and get him down and laying still, but he
was fighting them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear him say anything?
Chief BATCHELOR. No; I don't recall anything he said.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear the officers say anything to him?
Chief BATCHELOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there?
Chief BATCHELOR. Just a few minutes. The ambulance came almost
immediately. It was just--I walked out of there before the ambulance
came and walked back. Someone shouted right after this happened, and
there was a lot of confusion, and someone shouted, "Don't let anybody
out."
There were a bunch of reporters that started running like they were
frightened. I suppose they were running to telephones, but they tried
to run up the Main Street ramp, and I remember very clearly the officer
at the top of the ramp pulling his gun and said, "Get back down."
They turned around and walked back down, but most of them escaped
through the corridor. Not out the ramp, but went out through the
corridor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is the corridor that leads from the record room to
Commerce Street?
Chief BATCHELOR. Well, yes. They escaped out the corridor off the
hallway that leads in front of the jail office into the Records Bureau,
and then to Commerce Street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they escape out Commerce Street?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know where they went from there, whether they
went upstairs to use the telephone, or out in the street. But there
would have been nobody over there that heard the command not to let
them out. This was kind of a spontaneous command.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What percentage of people would you say got out of the
basement? News media people got out of the basement that way?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know. They scattered pretty quickly. Still a
lot hung around after it was over. I would say half, at least, got out
that way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you in the jail office when Ruby was taken
upstairs in the elevator?
Chief BATCHELOR. Was I in the jail office when he was taken upstairs?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you?
Chief BATCHELOR. I went as soon as the ambulance came and got him,
I ran up the ramp and told him to get that truck out of there, that
it was blocking the entrance to the ramp, and then I left and went
upstairs and told Chief Curry what happened. By the time I got up
there, somebody called him and he knew what happened.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do next?
Chief BATCHELOR. Lord, I don't remember what I did next. We sat there
kind of dumbfounded for a while.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did there come a time during the rest of the day when you
talked with Ruby?
Chief BATCHELOR. I never did talk with Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall the rumors, stories that began to come in
about how Ruby got down into the basement?
Chief BATCHELOR. In the course of the next day or two we heard lots of
rumors that he had a press card. This was the prevailing rumor, that he
had a press card, but there wasn't a press card found on him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am trying to direct your attention to the events fairly
close after the time of, the time Oswald was shot. What did you do
in connection with attempting to find out how Ruby got down in that
basement?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know that I did anything specifically to
try to find that out. We began to think in terms of an overall
investigation into the matter.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Chief Curry convene any sort of meeting or gather
together any of the top officers to discuss this?
Chief BATCHELOR. He discussed it with Lumpkin and Stevenson and I. I
don't recall exactly when this happened, whether it happened just--I am
sure it didn't happen just immediately after it happened, because there
were obvious things that would take place first, and that would be the
investigation, that homicide would carry on, an interrogation of Ruby
himself.
We even got some rumors the next day that some of our officers had
borrowed money from a bank and Ruby was a cosigner on the note, and we
ran a check at every bank in Dallas, but the banks where this--the most
probable one was the Republic Bank. We ran a check there by sending
the name of everybody that was in that basement over to the bank, and
having them check for us and see if they had any notes on these people.
We also checked with, I believe, the Mercantile, and we checked with
the Oak Cliff Bank and Trust Co., because Ruby happened to live out in
that area.
We didn't know whether he had an account, but none of them found
anything to date.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This meeting or a little conference that you referred to
that you and Curry and Lumpkin and Stevenson had, about how long after
Oswald was shot did this occur?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don't remember whether that was that day or the next
day, but it resulted in Chief Curry pulling some men out of the special
service division with Captain Jones in charge, and we had about six men
on the team besides the captain to investigate every aspect of this,
which was in terms of locating all of the people that were assigned
down there, locating as many of the press as they knew were down
there, and getting statements from all of these people. Then also we
discovered this matter of this money order, and we followed that thing
out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you personally talk with Officer Dean at any time on
the Sunday that Oswald was shot? After Ruby shot Oswald, did you talk
to Dean?
Chief BATCHELOR. Dean said something to me, and I don't remember
whether it was Sunday or not. I believe it was Sunday afternoon,
sometime, or evening, to the effect that he had been up and talked to
Ruby with Mr. Sorrels, I believe was present there, and that Ruby told
him he came down that ramp.
He told him that an officer, that a car came in, and an officer stopped
and talked with the fellows in the car, and while he was talking to
them, he walked down there.
There is nothing to indicate that the officer did talk to the officers
that went out other than maybe to speak to them. I mean, but it appears
evident now that while the officer did walk away momentarily a few feet
from the entrance is when he got in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When Dean made this statement to you, did you know that he
had spoken to a newspaper reporter also?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether this conversation you had with Dean
was before or after he spoke to the newspaper people?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir; I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have an occasion to talk with an officer by the
name of Newman that day?
Chief BATCHELOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to talk to Officer Vaughn on that
day?
Chief BATCHELOR. No; over on top of the ramp?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Chief BATCHELOR. No; as a matter of fact, I never have talked with
Vaughn. And I wasn't talking to Dean in the nature of interrogating. He
voluntarily told me this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else present when Dean told you that?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don't recall that there was. I don't think there was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where this conversation occurred?
Chief BATCHELOR. No; it was there in the city hall, but I don't
remember exactly where. It was probably up on the third floor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I am going to mark for identification, "Dallas, Tex.,
Chief Batchelor, March 23, 1964, Exhibit 5002."
Can you tell us briefly what that is, Chief?
Chief BATCHELOR. That is a monthly assignment board or bulletin, which
has the names of all the members of the police department in it and
their assignments for the month of November 1963.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a true and accurate roster of the people who were
employed in the department on the day that Ruby shot Oswald?
Chief BATCHELOR. It would be, with the exception of any few that might
have been reassigned, or any few that might have, in the course of the
month, been transferred from one division to another, which occurs
frequently. But for the most part it is correct.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or, also a few that had been hired?
Chief BATCHELOR. Or a few that had been hired during that month. They
are not on there; yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you and I have spoken at some length during the last
day, not counting the length of time we spent here. Do you recall that
in your office this morning we talked some about security measures in
the protection of the President?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any suggestions that you would make as to how,
as a result of your experience, you think the President might be more
effectively protected?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know how you would correct this exactly. One
of the problems that we experienced was the fact that such, of such a
short time to do some of the planning that we had.
We didn't know until just one afternoon, actually, in terms of Love
Field security, actually where the President's plane would be placed.
We didn't know until 2 days before his arrival what the parade route
would be. This posed some problem in terms of assignment of personnel
and properly instructing personnel as to what their procedures should
be.
I think one thing that would be helpful would be for a standard general
procedure of things that those responsible for protection of the
President could put out to police departments such as certain standard
types of coverage that would always apply.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us any example from your own experience where
this would have been useful on this unfortunate trip?
Chief BATCHELOR. One thing you need in a situation like this is
explicit written instructions to officers as to such things as watching
the crowd rather than the President.
This is a general accepted thing in most police departments.
Sometimes you have new personnel that comes in and they need to be
told this specifically. We had an instance in which we were asked to
guard all of the overpasses, railroad and vehicular, and we instructed
the officers verbally that they were to let no unauthorized personnel
on these overpasses. But there was no definition of what "authorized
personnel" was.
And in one case, there were people on an overpass which the President
had never reached.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this the triple railroad overpass at the base of Elm
Street?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; they would have just gone under, or would have
gone under momentarily had he not been shot.
There were a number of railroad track workers on this overpass, and
we had officers up there, but they considered them to be authorized
personnel because they worked for the railroad, and they were all lined
along there watching for the parade which never did go under them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many persons do you remember having been up there?
Chief BATCHELOR. I was not there. I heard about it. I understand there
were probably 10 or 12 people up there. But actually, there should
be nobody over the immediate route the President goes under. But
there are certainly, there seems to me, certain generally accepted
procedures that, and certain general types of security that every
police department ought to be aware of, that is standard operating
procedure, plus whatever specific thing that the various circumstances
might want done; some sort of suggested procedure on their part, with
it published, that might be helpful to police organizations.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to go off the record here a moment.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's go on the record on this.
We have been speaking off the record about other suggestions which
Chief Batchelor has, and one of the things that he has pointed out
is that there is not enough advance notice of what the Presidential
route is going to be to enable the police department to satisfactorily
handle the administrative problems of selecting people to place them at
particular intersections.
Do you want to add any more to that statement that I have made of what
you have just told me?
Chief BATCHELOR. No. I realize there is another aspect on this too,
on the part of the Secret Service, that they want, that is, that they
don't want too much advance notice to the public. This is the reason I
am not criticizing.
(Further discussion off the record.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me go on the record and ask you a question here. Do
you think, Chief, it would have been possible to station people in the
middle of the downtown block with the instructions to watch various
buildings in a periphery of their vision.
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. This would be feasible. We did have men in the
middle of the downtown, several of them in each block, they were
primarily watching the crowd of people rather than the windows.
When you are in an area of skyscrapers and you are standing right at
the foot of these skyscrapers, you couldn't see windows too far up more
than just a few floors, but we did have men in the middle of the block,
but they weren't instructed to watch the windows as much as they were
to watch the people.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did these men actually have any specific instructions as
to how they were to go about watching the people or the windows?
Chief BATCHELOR. We had experienced detectives down there in the
immediate block watching in the crowd and then we had some reservists,
too, and we had instructed our people in the course of training that
when somebody comes by, that you are supposed to secure, that you are
not supposed to watch that person, but supposed to watch the crowd.
Whether all of them remember this or not--when you don't get a
President here but every number of years, why you don't know. That is
the reason I think that in some places where they have these kind of
people frequently, this is probably routine.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have men stationed in the neighborhood of Elm
and Houston and the School Book Depository that were instructed to be
watching the crowds?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir; I don't think anyone was stationed below
Houston Street. At that point, I don't know whether any crowd along
that particular point was even anticipated or not. It was away from the
business section and it was not any buildings on either side of the
street there, actually.
The School Book Depository faces on Elm Street, which is parallel to
the Elm Street ramp that goes under the triple underpass.
It is a couple of hundred feet across from the street to that Building
and there wasn't anybody placed down there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't recall that there was a police car stationed
either along Elm Street or Houston near that intersection?
Chief BATCHELOR. There was a police car that preceded the two of them,
as a matter of fact, that preceded the Presidential convoy. One was a
quarter of a mile ahead and one was back of that one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am referring to a stationary car at the intersection.
Chief BATCHELOR. No; there wasn't one, that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay, I think that is it.