DIALOGUE III

BETWEEN JUNIUS, A SCHOLAR, AND THEOPHORUS, HIS MASTER, CONCERNING HEAVEN

AND HELL

The Scholar asked his Master "Whither goeth the Soul when the Body

dieth?"

His Master answered him: There is no necessity for it to go any whither.

How not, said the inquisitive Junius, must not the Soul leave the body

at death and go either to Heaven or Hell?

It needs no going forth, replied the venerable Theophorus. Only the

outward Mortal Life with the body shall separate themselves from the

Soul. The Soul hath Heaven and Hell within itself before, according as

it is written. _The Kingdom of God cometh not with observation, neither

shall they say Lo here! or Lo there! For behold the Kingdom of God is

within you._ And which soever of the two, that is, either Heaven or

Hell, is manifested in it, in that the Soul standeth.

Here Junius said to his Master: This is hard to understand. Doth it not

enter into Heaven or Hell, as a man entereth into a house; or as one

goeth through a hole or casement into an unknown place; so goeth it not

into another world?

The Master spoke and said: No, there is verily no such kind of entering

in; forasmuch as Heaven and Hell are every where, being universally

co-extended.

How is that possible? said the Scholar. What, can Heaven and Hell be

here present, where we are now sitting? And if one of them might, can

you ever make me believe that ever both should be here together?

Then spoke the Master in this manner: I have said that Heaven is

everywhere present and it is true. For God is in Heaven; and God is

everywhere. I have said also that Hell must be in like manner

everywhere. For the _Wicked One_, who is the Devil, is in Hell, and the

whole World, as the Apostle hath taught us, lyeth in the _Wicked One_,

or the _Evil One_; which is as much as to say, not only that the Devil

is in the World, but that the World is in the Devil; and if in the

Devil, then in Hell too, because he is there. So Hell therefore is

everywhere, as well as Heaven; which is the thing that was to be proved.

The Scholar, startled hereat, said: Pray make me to understand this.

To whom the Master: Understand then what Heaven is. It is but the

_turning in of the Will to the Love of God_. Wheresoever thou findest

God manifesting himself in Love, there thou findest Heaven, without

travelling for it so much as one foot. And by this understand also what

Hell is and where it is. I say unto thee it is but the _turning in of

the Will into the wrath of God_. Wheresoever the Anger of God doth more

or less manifest itself, there certainly is more or less of Hell, in

whatsoever place it be. So that it is but the turning in of thy will

either into his Love, or into his Anger; and thou art accordingly either

in Heaven or in Hell. Mark it well. And this now cometh to pass in this

present life, whereof St Paul speaking saith, _Our conversation is in

Heaven_. And the Lord Christ saith also, _My sheep hear my voice, and I

know them, and they follow me, and I give them the Eternal Life, and

none shall pluck them out of my hand_. Observe, he saith not, I _will

give_ them, after this life is ended, but I _give_ them, that is, now in

the time of this life. And what else is this gift of Christ to his

followers, but an Eternity of Life, which for certain can be no where

but in Heaven. Yea, moreover, none shall be able to pluck them out of

Heaven, because it is he who holdeth them there, and they are in his

hand which nothing can resist. All therefore doth consist in the

turning in, or entering of the Will into Heaven, by hearing the the

voice of Christ, and both _knowing_ him, and _following_ him. And so on

the contrary it is also. Understandest thou this?

His Scholar said to him: I think, in part, I do. But how cometh this

entering of the Will into Heaven to pass?

The Master answered him: This then will I endeavour to satisfy thee in;

but thou must be very attentive to what I shall say unto thee. Know

then, my son, that when the Ground of the Will yieldeth itself up to

God, then it sinketh out of its own Self, and out of and beyond all

ground and place, that is or can be imagined, into a certain unknown

Deep, where God only is manifest, and where he only worketh and willeth.

And then it becometh nothing to itself, as to its own working and

willing, and so God worketh and willeth in it. And God dwells in this

designed Will, by which the Soul is sanctified, and so fitted to come

into Divine Rest. Now, in this case, when the body breaketh, the Soul is

so thoroughly penetrated all over with the Divine Light, even as a

glowing hot iron is by the fire, by which being penetrated throughout,

it loseth its darkness, and becomes bright and shining. Now this is the

_hand of Christ_, where God's Love thoroughly inhabits the Soul, and is

in it a shining Light, and a new glorious Life. And then the Soul is in

Heaven, and is a Temple of the Holy Ghost, and is itself the very Heaven

of God, wherein he dwelleth. Lo, this is the entering of the Will into

Heaven; and thus it cometh to pass.

Be pleased, Sir, to proceed, said the Scholar, and let me know how it

fareth on the other side.

The Master said: The godly Soul, you see, is in the _hand of Christ_,

that is in Heaven, as he himself hath told us, and in what manner this

cometh to be so, you have also heard. But the ungodly Soul is not

willing in this life-time to come into the Divine Resignation of its

Will, or to enter into the Will of God; but goeth on still in its own

lust and desire, in vanity and falsehood, and so entereth into the Will

of the Devil. It receiveth, thereupon, into itself nothing but

wickedness; nothing but lying, pride, covetousness, envy and wrath; and

thereunto it giveth up its Will and whole Desire. This is the Vanity of

the Will; and this same Vanity or vain shadow must also in like manner

be manifested in the Soul, which hath yielded itself up also to be its

servant; and must work therein even as the Love of God worketh in the

regenerated Will; and penetrate it all over, as fire doth iron.

And it is not possible for this Soul to come into the Rest of God,

because God's Anger is manifested in it, and worketh in it. Now when a

body is parted from the Soul, then beginneth the Eternal Melancholy and

Despair, because it now findeth that it is become altogether Vanity,

even a Vanity most vexatious to itself, and a distracting Fury, and a

self-tormenting Abomination. Now it perceiveth itself disappointed of

every Thing which it had before fancied, and blind, and naked, and

wounded, and hungry, and thirsty, without the least prospect of ever

being relieved, or obtaining so much as one drop of the water of Eternal

Life. And it feeleth itself to be its own vile executioner and

tormentor; and is affrighted at its own ugly dark form, and fain would

flee from itself if it could, but it cannot, being fast bound with the

chains of the Dark Nature, whereinto it had sunk itself when in the

flesh. And so, not having learned or accustomed itself to sink down into

the Divine Grace, and being also strongly possessed with the Idea of

God, as an angry and jealous God, the poor Soul is both afraid and

ashamed to bring its Will into God, by which deliverance might possibly

come to it. The Soul is afraid to do it, as fearing to be consumed by so

doing, under the apprehension of the Deity as a mere devouring Fire.

The Soul is also _ashamed_ to do it, as being confounded at its own

nakedness and monstrosity, and therefore would, if it were possible,

hide itself from the Majesty of God, and cover its abominable form from

his most holy eye, though by casting itself still deeper into the

Darkness. Therefore it _will not_ enter into God, nay, it _cannot_ enter

with its false Will; yea, though it should strive to enter, yet can it

not enter into the Love, because of the Will which hath reigned in it.

For such a Soul is thereby captivated in the Wrath, yea, is itself but

_mere Wrath_, having by its false Desire, which it had awakened in

itself, comprehended and shut itself up therewith, and so transformed

itself into the nature and property thereof.

And since also the Light of God doth not shine in it, nor the Love of

God enclose it, the Soul is moreover a _great Darkness_, and is withal

an anxious Fire-source, carrying about an Hell in itself, and not being

able to discern the least glimpse of the Light of God, or to feel the

least spark of his Love. Thus it dwelleth in itself as in Hell, and

needeth no entering into Hell at all, or being carried thither, for in

what place soever it may be, so long as it is in itself, it is in the

Hell. And though it should travel far and cast itself many hundred

thousand leagues from its present place, to be out of Hell; yet still

would it remain in its hellish source and darkness.

If this be so, how then cometh it, said the Scholar to Theophorus, that

an Heavenly Soul doth not in the time of this life perfectly perceive

the Heavenly Light and Joy, and the Soul which is without God in the

World, doth not also here feel Hell, as well as hereafter? Why should

they not both be perceived and felt as well in this life as in the next,

seeing that both of them are in Man, and one of them as you have shewed,

worketh in every man?

To whom Theophorus presently returned this answer: The Kingdom of Heaven

is in the Saints operative and manifestative of itself by _Faith_. They

who carry God within them, and live by his Spirit, find the Kingdom of

God in their Faith, and they feel the Love of God in their Faith, by

which the Will hath given up itself unto God, and is made Godlike. All

is transacted within them _by Faith_, which is to them the evidence of

the Eternal Invisibles, and a great manifestation in their Spirit of

this Divine Kingdom, which is within them. But their natural life is

nevertheless encompassed with flesh and blood; and this standing in a

contrariety thereto, and being placed through the Fall in the principle

of God's Anger, and environed about with the World, which by no means

can be reconciled to Faith, these faithful Souls cannot but be very much

exposed to attacks from this World, wherein they are sojourners; neither

can they be insensible of their being thus encompassed about with flesh

and blood, and with the World's vain lust, which ceaseth not continually

to penetrate the outward mortal life, and to tempt them manifold ways,

even as it did Christ. Whence the World on one side and the Devil on the

other, not without the curse of God's Anger in flesh and blood, do

thoroughly sift and penetrate the Life, whereby it cometh to pass that

the Soul is often in anxiety when these three are all set upon it

together, and when Hell thus assaulteth the Life, and would manifest

itself in the Soul. But the Soul hereupon sinketh down into the hope of

the Grace of God, and standeth like a beautiful Rose in the midst of

Thorns, until the Kingdom of this World shall fall from it in the death

of the body. And then the Soul first becometh truly manifest in the Love

of God, and of his Kingdom, which is the Kingdom of Love; having

henceforth nothing more to hinder it. But during this life she must walk

with Christ in this world, and then Christ delivereth her out of her own

Hell, by penetrating her with his Love throughout, and standing by her

in Hell, and even changing her Hell into Heaven.

But in that thou sayest, Why do not the Souls which are without God feel

Hell in this World? I answer; They bear it about with them in their

wicked consciences, but they know it not; because the World hath put out

their eyes, and its deadly cup hath cast them likewise into a sleep, a

most fatal sleep. Notwithstanding which it must be owned that the Wicked

do frequently feel Hell within them during the time of this mortal life,

though they may not apprehend that it is Hell, because of the earthly

vanity which cleaveth to them from without, and the sensible pleasures

and amusements wherewith they are intoxicated. And moreover it is to be

noted that the outward Life in every such one hath yet the Light of the

outward Nature, which ruleth in this Life, and so the Pain of Hell

cannot, so long as that hath the rule, be revealed. But when the body

dyeth or breaketh away, so as the Soul cannot any longer enjoy such

temporal pleasure and delight, nor the Light of this outward World,

which is wholly thereupon extinguished as to it, then the Soul stands in

an eternal hunger and thirst after such vanities as it was here in love

withal, but yet can reach nothing but that false Will, which it had

impressed in itself while in the body; and wherein it had abounded to

its great loss. And now whereas it had too much of its Will in this

life, and yet was not contented therewith, it hath, after the separation

by death, as little of it; which createth in it an everlasting thirst

after that which it can henceforth never obtain more, and causeth it to

be in a perpetual anxious lust after Vanity, according to its former

impression, and in a continual rage of hunger after those sorts of

wickedness and lewdness whereinto it was immersed, being in the flesh.

Fain would it do more evil still, but that it hath not either wherein or

wherewith to effect the same, and therefore it doth perform this only

_in itself_. All is not literally transacted, as if it were outward; and

so the ungodly is tormented by those Furies which are in his own mind,

and begotten upon himself by himself. For he is verily become his own

Devil and Tormentor; and that by which he sinned here, when the Shadow

of this World is passed away, abideth still with him in the impression,

and is made his prison and his Hell. But this hellish hunger and thirst

cannot be fully manifested in the Soul, till the Body, which ministered

to the Soul that it lusted after, and with which the Soul was so

bewitched, as to doat thereupon, and pursue all its cravings, be

stripped off from it.

I perceive then, said _Junius_ to his Master, that the Soul, having

played the wanton with the Body in all voluptuousness, and served the

lusts thereof during this life, retaineth still the very same

inclinations and affections which it had before, then when it hath no

opportunity or capacity to satisfy them longer; and that when this

cannot be, there is then Hell opened in that Soul, which had been shut

up in it before by means of the outward Life in the Body, and of the

Light of this World. Do I rightly understand?

_Theophorus_ said: It is very rightly understood by you. Go on.

On the other hand (said he) I clearly perceive by what I have heard,

that Heaven cannot but be in a loving Soul which is possessed of God,

and hath subdued thereby the Body to the obedience of the Spirit in all

things, and perfectly immersed itself into the Will and Love of God. And

when the Body dyeth, and the Soul is hence redeemed from the Earth, it

is now evident to me that the Life of God, which was hidden in it, will

display itself gloriously, and Heaven consequently be then manifested.

But, notwithstanding, if there be not a local Heaven besides and a local

Hell, I am still at a loss where to place no small part of the Creation,

if not the greatest. For where must all the intellectual inhabitants of

it abide?

In their own Principle, answered the Master, whether it be of Light or

of Darkness. For every created intellectual Being remaineth in its deeds

and essences, in its wonders and properties, in its life and image; and

therein it beholdeth and feeleth God, as who is everywhere, whether it

be in the Love or in the Wrath.

If it be in the Love of God, then beholdeth it God accordingly, and

feeleth him as he is, Love. But if it hath captivated itself in the

Wrath of God, then it cannot behold God otherwise than in the Wrathful

Nature, nor perceive him otherwise than as an incensed and vindictive

Spirit. All places are alike to it, if it be in God's Love; and, if it

be not there, every place is Hell alike. What Place can bound a Thought?

Or what needeth any understanding Spirit to be kept here or there, in

order to its happiness or misery? Verily, wheresoever it is, it is in

the Abyssal World, where there is neither end nor limit. And whither, I

pray, should it go? since though it should go a thousand miles off, or a

thousand times ten thousand miles, and this ten thousand times over

beyond the bounds of the Universe, and into the imagining spaces above

the stars, yet it were then still in the very same point from whence it

went out. For God is the _Place_ of Spirit, if it may be lawful to

attribute to him such a name to the which Body hath a relation. And in

God there is no limit; both near and far off is here all one; and be it

in his Love, or be it in his Anger, the abyssal Will of the Spirit is

altogether unconfined. It is swift as thought, passing through all

things; it is magical, and nothing corporeal or from without can let it;

it dwelleth in its wonders, and they are its house.

Thus it is with every Intellectual, whether of the Order of Angels or of

human Souls, and you need not fear but there will be room enough for

them all, be they ever so many; and such also as shall best suit them,

even according to their election and determination, and which may thence

very well be called the "_own place_" of each.

At which said the Scholar, I remember, indeed, that it is written

concerning the great traitor, that he went after death to his _own

place_.

The Master said: The same is true of every Soul, when it departeth this

mortal life. And it is true in like manner of every Angel and Spirit

whatsoever, which is necessarily determined by its own choice. As God is

everywhere, so also the Angels are everywhere; but each one in its own

Principle, and in its own Property or (if you had rather) in its _own

Place_. The same Essence of God, which is as a Place to Spirits, is

confessed to be everywhere, but the appropriation or participation

hereof is different to everyone, according as each hath attracted it

magically in the earnestness of Will. The same Divine Essence which is

with the Angels of God above, is with us also below. And the same Divine

Nature which is with us is likewise with them; but after different

manners and in different degrees communicated and participated.

And what I have said here of the Divine, is no less to be considered by

you in the participation of the Diabolical Essence and Nature, which is

the Power of Darkness, as to the manifold modes, degrees, and

appropriations thereof in the false Will. In this World there is strife

between them, but when this World hath reached in anyone the Limit, then

the Principle catcheth that which is its own, and so the Soul receiveth

companions accordingly, that is, either Angels or Devils.

To whom the Scholar again: Heaven and Hell then being in us at strife in

the time of this life, and God himself being also thus near to us, where

can Angels and Devils dwell?

And the Master answered him thus: Where thou dost not dwell as to thy

_Self-hood_ and to thine _own Will_, there the holy Angels dwell with

thee, and every where all over round about thee. Remember this well. On

the contrary, where thou dwellest as to thyself, or in Self-seeking, and

Self-will, there to be sure the Devils will be with thee, and will take

up their abode with thee, and dwell all over thee, and round about thee

everywhere, which God in his mercy prevent.

I understand not this, said the Scholar, so perfectly well as I could

wish. Be pleased to make it a little more plain to me.

The Master then spake: Mark well what I am going to say. Where the Will

of God in anything willeth, there is God manifested. And in this very

manifestation of God the Angels do dwell. But where God in any Creature

willeth not with the Will of that Creature, there God is not manifested

to it, neither can he be; but dwelleth in himself, without the

co-operation thereof, and subjection to him in humility. There God is an

unmanifested God to the Creature. So the Angels dwell not with such an

one; for wherever they dwell, there is the Glory of God; and they make

his Glory. What then dwelleth in such a Creature as this? God dwelleth

not therein; the Angels dwell not therein; God willeth not therein; the

Angels also will not therein. The case is evidently this; in that Soul

or Creature its own will is without God's Will; and there the Devil

dwelleth; and with him all that is without God, and without Christ. This

is the truth; lay it to heart.

The _Scholar_ said: It is possible I may ask several impertinent

questions; but I beseech you, good Sir, to have patience with me, and to

pity my ignorance, if I ask what may appear to you perhaps ridiculous,

or may not be at all fit for me to expect an answer to. For I have

several questions still to propound to you; but I am ashamed of my own

thoughts in this matter.

The _Master_ said: Be plain with me, and propose whatever is upon your

mind; yea, be not ashamed even to appear ridiculous, so that by querying

you may but become wiser.

The _Scholar_ thanked his Master for this liberty and said: How far then

are Heaven and Hell asunder?

To whom he answered thus: As far as Day and Night; or as far as

Something and Nothing. They are in one another and yet they are at the

greater distance one from the other. Nay, the one of them is as nothing

to the other; and yet notwithstanding they cause joy and grief to one

another. Heaven is throughout the whole World, and it is also without

the World over all, even everywhere that is, or that can be even so much

as imagined. It filleth all, it is within all, it is without all, it

encompasseth all; without division, without place; working by a Divine

Manifestation, and flowing forth universally, but not going in the least

out of itself. For only in itself it worketh and is revealed, being one

and undivided in all. It appeareth only through the Manifestation of

God; and never but in itself only. And in that Being which cometh into

it, or in that wherein it is manifested; there also it is that God is

manifested. Because Heaven is nothing else but a Manifestation or

Revelation of the Eternal One, wherein all the working and willing is in

quiet love.

So in like manner Hell also is through the whole World, and dwelleth and

worketh but in itself, and in that wherein the Foundation of Hell is

manifested, namely, in Self-hood and in the False Will. The visible

World hath both in it; and there is no place but Heaven and Hell may be

found or revealed in it. Now Man as to his temporal life is only of the

visible World; and therefore during the time of his life he seeth not

the spiritual World. For the Outward World with its substance is a cover

to the Spiritual World, even as the Body is to the Soul. But when the

outward Man dyeth, then the Spiritual World is manifested to the Soul,

which hath now its covering taken away. And it is manifested either in

the Eternal Light with the holy Angels, or in the Eternal Darkness, with

the Devils.

The _Scholar_ further queried: What is an Angel, or an human Soul, that

they can be thus manifested either in God's Love or Anger, either in

Light or Darkness?

To whom Theophorus answered: They come from one and the self-same

Original. They are little branches of the Divine Wisdom, of the Divine

Will, sprung from the Divine Word, and made objects of the Divine Love.

They are out of the Ground of Eternity; whence Light and Darkness do

spring; Darkness which consisteth in the receiving of Self-Desire; and

Light which consisteth in willing the same thing with God. For the

conformity of the Will with God's Will is Heaven; and wheresoever there

is this willing with God, there the Love of God is undoubtedly in the

working, and his Light will not fail to manifest itself. But in the

Self-attraction of the Soul's desire, or in the reception of Self into

the willing of any Spirit, angelical or human, the Will of God worketh

with difficulty, and is to that Soul and Spirit nought but Darkness; out

of which, notwithstanding, the Light may be manifested. And this

Darkness is the Hell of that Spirit wherein it is. For _Heaven_ and

_Hell_ are nought else but a _Manifestation of the Divine Will either

in Light or Darkness, according to the Properties of the Spiritual

World_.

Dialogues on the Supersensual Life · 第 134 / 197 题