The doctrine on the other side is--

That the power to make Treaties is limited to such objects as are not

comprehended and included in the specified powers given to Congress by

the constitution; or, that a Treaty which comprehends or embraces any

such object is not valid; that is, not the supreme law of the land,

until the House of Representatives have added their sanction to it; or,

if this be not admitted, that the House of Representatives, by the

theory of our constitution, have check on the Treaty-making power, in

providing and appropriating money necessary to carry a Treaty into

effect; which power, it is admitted on all hands, they possess; and thus

in this way control the doings of the PRESIDENT and Senate, and can

reject a Treaty, or at least certain parts of it. That they can and

ought to do this if they believe the Treaty to be a bad one, though not

injurious in an extreme, such as manifestly betraying or sacrificing the

private interest of the State, (which by the Law of Nations nullifies

such a compact,) and which on all hands would readily be admitted as a

sufficient cause for refusing to carry it into execution.

Mr. WILLIAM LYMAN began with remarking, that the gentlemen opposed to

the resolution had at first contended, that the House had not a

constitutional right to require papers of the Executive, relative to any

subject whatever; and that if a requisition was made, it would be

discretionary with the Executive, whether it should be complied with or

not.

To this he replied, that the House possessed the power of impeachment

solely, and that this authority certainly implied the right to inspect

every paper and transaction in any department, otherwise the power of

impeachment could never be exercised with any effect. But not to rely

solely on this, he recollected one case, he said, perfectly in point,

which was in the correspondence of the former Secretary of State (Mr.

JEFFERSON) with the British Minister, communicated to the House. From

dates and references, there appeared in that correspondence a chasm. The

House, therefore, passed a resolution requesting the Executive to lay

before them what had been omitted; and further, the resolution in that

case was offered by the gentleman from South Carolina, (Mr. SMITH,) who

was now so vehemently opposed to the present. The right of calling for

papers was sanctioned, he said, by the uniform and undeniable practice

of the House ever since the organization of the Government; they had

called for papers and information whenever it was judged expedient; and

he asserted, that the House had the fullest right to the possession of

any papers in the Executive department; they were constituted the

especial guardians of the people for that purpose; and he would

undertake to say, that this was the first time it had ever been

controverted.

In order to ascertain the powers of the House, he would advert to the

constitution. In the first article and first section, it was declared,

"that all Legislative powers therein granted, were vested in a Congress,

to consist of a Senate and House of Representatives;" and in the eighth

section of the same article, the powers granted were defined and

specified, such as to lay and collect taxes, borrow money, regulate

commerce, and to exercise other important powers enumerated in the

several clauses of that important section. He said it was unnecessary to

read them, as they had been so frequently referred to in the course of

the debate; but he would request gentlemen to pause and reflect whether

it could be supposed that this section was not to be efficacious and

operative; was it possibly conceivable that a section so definite and so

important had been introduced in the constitution merely for the purpose

of being nullified and rendered nugatory by a subsequent article or

section? The very supposition, he said, appeared to him the height of

absurdity, and an affront to common sense; and yet this would be the

case, if the doctrines advanced were true, viz: that Treaties, when made

and ratified by the PRESIDENT and Senate, were supreme law, and that

they controlled and repealed all laws that stood in their way. Congress

could neither regulate commerce, borrow money, prescribe rules of

naturalization, nor legislate on any other subject, because the

PRESIDENT and Senate, by Treaty, would abrogate them all. It was in vain

to consult the House of Representatives in the formation of laws, if

they thus were liable to be annulled at the pleasure of the PRESIDENT

and Senate. The present question, he said, was not, whether the House

should make Treaties, but whether the PRESIDENT and Senate should make

laws; all the power contended for on the part of the House was the power

of self-preservation; it was a repelling power, a power to prevent the

PRESIDENT and Senate, under the color of making Treaties, from making

all the laws. A gentleman from Connecticut (Mr. GRISWOLD) had said, that

the Legislative power occupied all ground, and was vested in Congress;

and that the Treaty-making power occupied all ground, and was vested in

the PRESIDENT and Senate; and that although Congress, who were the

agents for the people, should make laws, yet, that the PRESIDENT and

Senate, who were also their agents, might, by Treaty, repeal them. This,

Mr. L. said, contradicted a sound axiom, and one he had never before

heard controverted, viz: that it required the same power to repeal as to

make a law. Such incongruities as the gentleman had advanced, Mr. L.

said, could never be reduced to practice; two persons could not be

possessed fully and completely of the same thing and at the same time.

The gentleman could never reconcile his positions, the one would

certainly defeat the other; upon his construction, the Treaty-making

power must absorb the Legislative power, or the Legislative power would

absorb the Treaty-making power.

It appeared, therefore, to him, that constitutions, laws, and all

writings, ought to receive such interpretation and construction as to

render them consistent with themselves; and that it was highly

presumptive a construction was erroneous when it produced an absurd

conclusion. If the several parts of the constitution were compared and

critically examined, the determination must be, that, although the

PRESIDENT and Senate could make Treaties, yet it could not be intended,

those Treaties that entrenched on the specific Legislative powers of

Congress, unless with their concurrence and consent; otherwise, it

followed, that, although the three branches were consulted in the

enacting laws, two might repeal them. But it had been asserted that this

power, insisted upon on the part of the House, was a novel doctrine,

introduced merely upon the spur of the present occasion; notwithstanding

which, it had been proved by several gentlemen who had spoken upon the

question, that this interpretation was given to the constitution in most

of the State Conventions at the time of its adoption; that the same

interpretation had also been given, at that time, by the writers both

for and against its adoption. It had appeared, from the extracts of

publications at that period, that whatever might have been the diversity

of opinion in other respects relative to the constitution, that, in this

construction, at least, both its friends and opposers perfectly agreed.

This principle, then, being thus settled and understood, it remained

only to show that it had been invariably admitted and recognized from

the first organization of the Government until this time. The first

Treaty that had been made under this constitution, he said, was that

with the Creek Indians, in the year 1789; previously to the making of

which, the PRESIDENT communicated the subject to Congress; an extract

from which communication he would read, viz: "If it should be the

judgment of Congress, that it would be most expedient to terminate all

differences in the Southern district, and to lay the foundation for

future confidence by an amicable Treaty with the Indian tribes in that

quarter, I think proper to suggest," &c. Here, Mr. L. said, he wished it

might be particularly noticed, that this subject was expressly referred

to the judgment of Congress to determine on its expediency or

inexpediency, and for what purpose, he would ask, was it referred? If

the Senate and PRESIDENT possessed the full power of making Treaties,

there could be no occasion for consulting the House of Representatives;

and yet, in this case, the first that presented itself, it had been

conceived necessary. In consequence of this communication, Congress had

judged it expedient to hold the Treaty; and on the 20th of August, the

same year, enacted a law in which the sum of twenty thousand dollars was

appropriated for that purpose; and, in conformity thereto, the PRESIDENT

appointed Commissioners and gave them instructions, which instructions

had been also communicated to Congress, from which he would also read

one paragraph; it was as follows: "You will observe that the whole sum

that can be constitutionally expended for the proposed Treaty shall not

exceed twenty thousand dollars." On this, he said, any commentary was

unnecessary, as the principle that the Legislative power operated to

restrain the power of making Treaties, was so fully and explicitly

recognized and admitted by the PRESIDENT himself. By pushing inquiry

further, it would be found that, in January, 1790, in consequence of

communications from the Executive which were referred to a select

committee, and a report made thereon, the House came to the following

resolution, to wit: "That provision ought to be made by law for holding

a Treaty with the Wabash, Miami, and other Indian tribes north-west of

the river Ohio." In March following, a law was made, the title of which

was "An act entitled an act providing for holding a Treaty to establish

peace with certain Indian tribes."

In March, 1791, the sum of twenty thousand dollars was appropriated for

obtaining a recognition of the Treaty with the Emperor of Morocco. In

March, 1793, one hundred thousand dollars were appropriated to defray

the expense of a Treaty with the Indian tribes north-west of the river

Ohio.

Thus it was apparent that laws had always been deemed necessary to

provide for holding Treaties and for defraying the expenses thereof.[71]

MARCH 17.--In Committee of the Whole, on Mr. LIVINGSTON's resolution.

Mr. REED said, he saw no necessity for the papers referred to in the

resolution. If the constitutionality of the Treaty should be questioned,

or the propriety of making appropriations, these questions, he

conceived, must be determined by comparing the Treaty with the

constitution, and by attending to those stipulations contained in the

Treaty itself.

It was not his intention to have troubled the committee by speaking on

this occasion; but perceiving that some gentlemen, in the course of the

debate, had gone further into the opposite extremes than he was prepared

at present to follow them, he felt as if he ought to express his own

sentiments with regard to the constitutional rights of that House

relative to the Treaty in question. The Treaty was undoubtedly

negotiated, ratified, and promulgated by constitutional authority. The

PRESIDENT, with the advice and consent of two-thirds of the Senate, was,

in his opinion, unquestionably that authority which the United States

had authorized to make Treaties. But still it seemed taken for granted

that some agency of that House, in its Legislative capacity, would be

needed in order to carry the aforesaid Treaty into effect. A question,

therefore, arose, viz: Was that House, in all such cases, bound and

obliged to put so implicit and absolute a confidence in the Executive or

in Treaties as would render it entirely unnecessary to have any opinion

of their own about them, or the probable consequences of their

operation? For his part, if he had never seen the Treaty in

contemplation, and were perfectly ignorant of its contents, or, if he

fully believed, as a citizen, that it was unconstitutional, or

calculated to ruin, or very materially injure the country, he should not

think himself justifiable in voting to appropriate money for the purpose

of carrying it into effect. It had been conceded by gentlemen that if a

Treaty were evidently unconstitutional, it would not be wrong to

withhold appropriations; and he conceived that a Treaty might possibly

be so injurious in its effects as to justify such a measure. Supposing

such a possible event should ever actually happen, did not the right of

refusing to legislate in support of the said Treaty involve the right of

previously examining all Treaties which need the aid of the Legislature,

and of judging for themselves whether it would be proper or improper to

make laws for the purpose of carrying them into effect?

In making Treaties the Executive would use his own discretion, keeping

within the limits prescribed for him by the constitution. In making laws

the Legislature must use their own discretion, always keeping within

those limits and bounds which the constitution had fixed for them. He

said, the discretionary right here contended for was not the right of

doing wrong; it was not the right of violating the constitution; it was

not the right of supporting a Treaty which ought to be defeated, nor of

defeating a Treaty which ought to be supported; but, simply the right of

judging for themselves, whether they ought, by their own act and deed,

in the character of Legislators, to appropriate by law such sums of

money as would be needed in order to support an existing Treaty, all

things and circumstances relating thereto being suitably examined and

properly considered. Perhaps it would be objected, that the constitution

nowhere expressly gave the Legislators that right. He answered, the

right was not precluded, but implied, and, in some respects, evidently

one of the original and essential rights of man; a law of nature, prior

and superior to all other laws; a law never to be transgressed in any

station whatsoever. Individuals, in many cases at least, had a right to

exercise their own discretion with respect to the propriety of

submitting to a civil law or of risking the penalty, the consequence of

disobedience; and, as a branch of the Legislature, he believed they had

a right to deliberate and consult, among other things, the expediency

and duty of making or of refusing to make appropriations, even in the

case of a Treaty. It appeared to him that, in legislating, the

Legislature should have this right of judging for themselves with

respect to the propriety of making or refusing to make any law

whatsoever. In most cases their duty would perhaps appear plain and

obvious, particularly in the case of appropriating money where a law or

Treaty actually existed. However, the obligation did not arise wholly

from the circumstance of an existing law, but partly from the nature,

reasonableness, and tendency of the thing itself.

A Treaty negotiated by constitutional authority was, he contended, a

solemn compact between two nations. It was an important consideration;

but he thought they might, with propriety, attend to other

considerations, for and against it, especially when their own aid was

required, in order to carry it fully into effect. This he conceived was

the right of the House, and no encroachment upon the prerogative of the

other branches. An appropriation was a specific sum, appropriated by a

particular law to a particular purpose.

The right of appropriating the public money was not a natural right, but

a right derived from the constitution; and the Legislature were to

exercise that right according to the honest dictates of their own best

discretion; excepting those instances in which they were expressly

restricted by the constitution itself, as in the cases of compensation

for the services of the President of the United States, and for the

services of the Judges. Congress might deliberate and act discretionally

in stating at first their salaries.

Mr. TRACY said, he felt a diffidence in giving his sentiments in that

House, which was much increased when he considered the ability with

which the question had already been discussed, and the length of time it

had consumed; but the magnitude of the question would justify him, in

his own opinion, for asking of the committee to indulge him with a small

portion of their time and attention.

This was the first time, since the adoption of the present Government,

that a discussion of the important constitutional question of the extent

of the Treaty-making power could have taken place, as it respected a

foreign nation; and, of course, would probably form a precedent for all

future inquiries of a similar nature.

The constitutional rights of the House of Representatives to interfere

with Treaties, might properly be considered in two points of view:

1. Had they a right to assist in the formation of Treaties in such a

manner as that a Treaty would be incomplete without their sanction

officially given? And,

2. Had they a right to refuse appropriations of moneys, (if necessary to

carry into effect some provisions in a Treaty,) and in that way defeat

its operation?

He acknowledged, if the first position could be supported, the right to

call for the papers would be conclusive; but, he contended, they could

not be wanted on the latter ground.

If the constitution was examined, it would be found the Treaty-making

power was given to the PRESIDENT; and no interference, or right given to

any other men or body of men but to two-thirds of the Senate, and that

by way of consent or advice. Could it be pretended there was a shadow of

authority given to the House of Representatives?

In the constitution it is said, "all Legislative powers herein granted

shall be vested in a Congress," &c. Would it be pretended, had the

constitution gone no further, that the then thirteen independent

sovereign States, by that part of it, had parted with the Treaty-making

power? No! they reserved a great share of Legislative power to

themselves, and delegated it to Congress only in certain cases, best

calculated, in their opinions, to advance their own happiness; and

unquestionably reserved every right, power, and sovereignty, which they

did not expressly give away by the constitution itself. The powers of

legislation are the powers of making statutes in all cases respecting

men and things within the jurisdiction of the Legislature; but it could

by no means in its nature comprehend the Treaty-making power, which is

the power of contracting or making bargains in the name of a nation, as

a moral person, with another nation or moral person, for their mutual

benefit, and to be binding and operative on them, as parties to the

contract or bargain. And although this had binding force on the nation,

when once formed and completed, yet it was not a Legislative act. But

the constitution went further: it had actually designated the PRESIDENT,

with the advice of the Senate, to be a Plenipotentiary for the formation

of Treaties. _Vattel_, page 179, speaking of the various customs of

nations, in the deposit of this power, says:

"All conductors of States (meaning the Executives) have not

the powers, of themselves, of making public Treaties: some

are obliged to take the advice of a Senate, or of the

Representatives of a nation. In the fundamental laws of

each State we must see what is the power of contracting,

with validity, in the name of a State."

He supposed, by "fundamental laws," _Vattel_ must mean the constitution

of a State; if so, it will not follow that the supreme Legislative or

Executive power of a State, as such, have necessarily the power of

making Treaties; it might be, and in most countries was, an object of

precise delegation, and probably always, or certainly more commonly,

given to the Executive. This constitution had precisely given it to the

Executive, subjoining the advice and consent of the Senate; and in this

particular, and in no other, had the individual sovereignties delegated

all their power without limitation. It was necessary and proper this

power should be lodged somewhere, and equally necessary it should be

entire and unlimited, to meet every exigency that the welfare of the

nation might require. It had been said, that general expressions of

power would be limited by specific: this was a general truth, but he

denied the application which had been attempted. It was said, the

Treaty-making power is a general power; the Congress has a specific

power to regulate commerce, &c. Of course, the specific power to

regulate commerce will check the operation of a Treaty of a commercial

nature. He said this part of the subject had been so ably and

conclusively managed by a gentleman from New Hampshire, yesterday, (Mr.

SMITH,) that he would not exhaust the patience of the committee by going

over the same ground. He would however observe, that by the common rule

of construction, all the powers given to the PRESIDENT which could, and

in their nature would, check or operate on legislation, must be

considered as a specific portion of power carved out of the general

power given in the former part of the instrument. The general powers of

legislation first given to Congress, and in the next place specific

powers given to the PRESIDENT, could not fail to lead the mind directly

to such a construction. "All Legislative powers, &c., are vested in a

Congress," but the PRESIDENT has a qualified and specific check. Power

to regulate commerce with foreign nations is vested in Congress, yet the

specific power of contracting, bargaining, or making a Treaty, is, so

far forth as it may touch Legislative points, a specific check upon it.

Yet he acknowledged this was not his chief reliance. The nature of the

case was such, that whatever internal regulations, or those relating to

external and foreign commercial subjects, which may have become objects

of Legislative attention, oppose or come in competition with a contract

or bargain about the same things, must give way. It does not exclude

legislation from the object of foreign commerce, but establishes certain

points within which it shall operate, and which it cannot violate. The

thirteen sovereignties possessing all the power, gave to Congress a

certain portion of Legislative authority; but they certainly could give

to the Executive, or any other body, the power to make Treaties. This he

contended they had done, by the words of the constitution, in an

unlimited manner.

It had been said, that the constitution was similar to that of Great

Britain in the part respecting Treaties. This, he contended, was an

incorrect statement: in his opinion they were very different. The

constitution of Great Britain was formed almost entirely of usages. It

had been, for a great length of time, the usage for the King to lay

before Parliament, for their approbation, Treaties--especially those of

a commercial nature. If this was a usage, all that could be said of it

was, that it was a part of their constitution. He supposed this right

had been given by the Crown, at some time, to obtain a grant of money;

but he could not recollect that the Parliament, with all their

pretensions to a right of rejecting Treaties, had ever exercised it.

They generally made a pretext of dislike to a Treaty to change the

Administration. This had been often done; it was on the Treaty of Peace

of 1783. The Treaty of Utrecht, which was concluded in 1713, had been

cited as an instance of rejection by the British Parliament. It was a

fact, in that instance, that nothing was rejected but a conditional

Treaty. In forming the Treaty, there were many distinct parts: one part

of it was a Commercial Treaty between England and France, separately

signed and conditional--that is, "within the space of two months after a

law shall pass in Great Britain, whereby it shall be sufficiently

provided, &c., the general tariff made in France, &c., shall take place

there again, &c." The law did not pass in Great Britain, and of course

the Commercial Treaty failed. Mr. T. said he had searched all the

Treaties made by Great Britain since the Treaty of Munster, which, if

his memory was accurate, was concluded in 1648, and could not find an

instance of the Parliament's refusing their assent to a Treaty made

unconditionally; and he really believed, if they practised fully on the

right they claimed, it would very soon destroy their Government. It had

been said, _Blackstone_ in his Commentaries had defined the powers of

the King of Great Britain to be unlimited in the making of Treaties. He

observed, that, let _Blackstone_ or any other Crown lawyer say what he

would in favor of prerogative, it was well known the usage had been to

submit to Parliament the consideration of Treaties, and that usage was a

part of their constitution; and he rejoiced, that in that particular the

constitution of his country was different. Gentlemen had said, Shall

this House not have as much power respecting Treaties as the House of

Commons in Great Britain? This question was both improper in itself, and

calculated to mislead. Were we in convention, and forming a

constitution, it might have weight; but in a cool discussion of a

constitution already formed and adopted, and the question is, What

powers are given? it could not be proper. And it ought to be remembered

that Parliament, and not the Commons alone, had this right in Great

Britain. In defining the relative powers given by the Constitution,

there was danger of the popular branch making encroachments on the other

branches, under pretence of favoring the liberties of the people. This

pretence, however grateful it might sound in debate, he thought was but

a pretence. It was the duty of the House to make a stand against all

encroachments on their own rights, if any were attempted, but it must

equally be their duty to exercise great caution not to encroach on

others. He said, he considered the responsibility which was so very

necessary on those in the exercise of the Treaty-making power could not

exist if it was extended to the House of Representatives.

He acknowledged if a Treaty was unconstitutional, it was not then a

contract of binding force, and of course contained no obligation of any

kind whatever; if a Treaty was so terrible in itself, and manifested

consequences ruinous to the nation, no argument could be drawn from such

a statement to establish general rules. The moral law had said, we shall

not kill, and yet a man may be placed in such a situation, as that he

not only may, but it becomes his duty to kill; could it be said a

general right to kill is proved by this concession? But could gentlemen

seriously say, we now wanted these papers, mentioned in the resolution,

to assist us in determining upon the question of appropriation? He

thought not. He supposed the first extensive and unlimited right of

interfering in the making of a Commercial Treaty could alone justify the

call, and he believed that ground must be given up. He said his

colleagues (Messrs. SMITH and GRISWOLD) had asserted no other doctrines

than such as he now advocated, and yet they had been accused of saying

that this House had no will of their own, but must in all cases

implicitly obey the PRESIDENT and Senate. The construction he had given

to the constitution he believed to be just, and trusted he could be

under no necessity of declaring the purity of his intentions, as he did

not doubt but every member of the House was guided in the investigation

by the purest motives.

Mr. S. SMITH said, that at the present state of the discussion, little

was left but gleanings, and to bear testimony against a doctrine that

appeared to him big with consequences fatal to the true interests of the

country. He would not pursue the sophistry of the gentleman last up (Mr.

TRACY) through all its windings and turnings; he would only observe that

the gentleman had read some, and quoted much to prove that Treaties were

the supreme law--a doctrine that was admitted by all, that is, when

under the authority of the United States.

He said the resolution requested certain papers to be laid before the

House. What had been the custom of the House heretofore? Invariably to

ask for all and every paper that might lead to information. He well

recollected that, in 1793, a great ferment had arisen in the public mind

in consequence of the Proclamation of Neutrality, (which had always

appeared to him to be a wise measure,) that on the meeting of Congress a

great number of useful papers relative to our situation with respect to

foreign nations were submitted, some of them of a most confidential

nature, relating to Treaties then depending, particularly that with

Spain. The PRESIDENT was not afraid to place his confidence in that

House, and he was right; the public mind was restored to quiet, and the

people of Kentucky (then restless) were satisfied that the Executive

were doing every thing in their power to obtain the free navigation of

the Mississippi. The PRESIDENT went further; he sent a special agent to

Kentucky to communicate to that Government the line of conduct then

pursuing for their welfare. Had the public mind been less disturbed on

the late Treaty than in 1793? He thought not; and that every paper which

would tend to satisfy that the Treaty was expedient, or to give

information on a subject that must be discussed before that House, might

with propriety be asked for.

A gentleman from Vermont (Mr. BUCK) repeated by another from South

Carolina (Mr. SMITH) said, to vote for this resolution would be treason

against the laws and constitution. Why this harsh language? Did it lead

to a discovery of truth? Where did these gentlemen find that definition

of treason? Not in the constitution, for there it was properly defined.

Mr. S. said, gentlemen had taken a ground that appeared alarming, viz:

That the PRESIDENT and two-thirds of the Senate may, by the aid of a

Treaty, do any thing, and every thing, not morally impossible, (provided

they do not infringe on the constitution,) and that the immediate

Representatives forming this House, have only to be informed thereof,

and to obey.

Let us pause for a moment, and ask, Was this possible? Could this be the

fair construction of our so much boasted constitution? If it should be,

he would not regret the services rendered his country during the late

glorious Revolution, nor the part he had taken to promote the adoption

of the constitution; nor would he, by inflammatory speeches within, nor

his actions without doors, do any thing that should tend to destroy the

harmony then subsisting, or to disunite a people whom nature and

relative wants seemed to have connected together; but he would endeavor,

in a constitutional manner, to obtain amendments to the constitution,

which would prevent the evil in future. But is there occasion for

amendments to the Treaty-making power? He thought not. There were checks

and balances sufficient in the constitution to prevent the evils that

might arise out of it. He said, he could offer nothing new, but would

pursue the train of reasoning began by a gentleman from Virginia, (Mr.

MADISON.)

In the eighth section of the first article of the constitution, Congress

have power to lay duties, &c., &c., but all duties shall be uniform

throughout the United States:

Can regulate trade with foreign nations:

Can establish a uniform rule of naturalization.

Congress, then, although they have the power to lay taxes and duties,

and to make laws of naturalization, are bound to make them uniform; and

in another article, are prevented from giving a preference by any

regulation of commerce or revenue to the ports of one State over those

of another. But the Treaty-making power is not so confined; it may

relieve one of our ports from this uniformity of duties, or one of the

States from the uniformity of naturalization; that is, it may relieve

goods imported in British bottoms into New York, from the one-tenth

extra duty, and let it remain on all the other ports of the Union. But,

say gentlemen, it is unfair to reason against the use of power by its

probable abuses. He thought it advisable to guard against abuses; but

has this abuse not already taken place? He thought it had. Not with

respect to a port of the consequence of New York; that would have been

too palpable; but on the Lakes, by the third article of the Treaty,

goods imported to the territory in that quarter, in British bottoms, are

subjected to no higher duty than goods imported in American vessels to

the Atlantic ports. Here appeared a departure from that uniformity

required by the constitution; here appeared a preference given to the

ports of one State over those of another; and yet gentlemen contend,

that the House have no right to inquire into the business. Indeed, so

delicate was one gentleman (Mr. BUCK) on the subject, that he opposed

committing the Algerine Treaty, lest it should establish a claim to

investigation! It was true, the trade on the Lakes was small, but it

would increase. Thus, although Congress were very wisely restricted,

when laying duties, to make them uniform, yet the PRESIDENT and Senate

would be capable, by the assistance of a foreign power, to destroy that

uniformity.

Mr. S. then stated, that he did not mean, and he hoped he should not be

understood to preclude himself from voting to carry the Treaty into

effect. He held himself entirely open to conviction; and if he should

find that the same was expedient, whatever might be his opinion at

present on the instrument, (and in truth he did not think it good,) yet

he would keep himself at full liberty to act as he might think most to

the interest of this country, when that subject should come before the

House.

MARCH 18.--In Committee of the Whole, on Mr. LIVINGSTON's resolution:

Mr. ISAAC SMITH did not pretend to prescribe limits to other men's

faith, but he never could believe that men, as wise as those who compose

the convention, would have left so important a regulation, as was now

contended for by some gentlemen, to mere uncertain construction. He

believed, if they intended that House should have had an agency in the

making of Treaties, they would have said so in express terms. Had they

done so? Nothing like it. So far from it, that they had unequivocally

appropriated the Treaty-making power to the PRESIDENT and two-thirds of

the Senate, in terms as express and positive as words could form: and

the gentleman in opposition could not, did not deny it. But, say they,

this power may be abused, shamefully abused, and, therefore, we will

construe it out of the hands the people have placed it in. We will

assume and declare ourselves the sole guardians of the people, and we

will cry out liberty, liberty; and, as the people love the sound, (he

hoped they would always love the substance,) perhaps they will believe

us. Here rests the fallacy. The people knew, whether they knew or not,

that they chose the PRESIDENT, and they firmly believe, as well they

may, that he is their guardian. The people knew, also, that they chose

the Senators, and they likewise think they are their guardians. How we,

said he, became sole guardians, will require a modesty superior to that

of New England to explain. The people have declared that the PRESIDENT

and Senate shall make Treaties, without a single exception, and, lest

there should be any mistake or cavilling about it, they have put it in

written words, as they thought, too plain to be doubted, too positive to

be contradicted. It appeared to him that it was a sufficient answer,

though a short one, to all the laborious arguments had in favor of their

interference, to say, that the people wills it otherwise: _sic volo, sic

jubeo, stat pro ratione voluntas_. If they had under consideration

alterations or amendments to the constitution, those arguments might,

perhaps, be proper; but, as matters now stand, they are mere

inapplicable declamation.

Mr. LIVINGSTON said, that the very able support this resolution had

received, might seem to release him from any obligation of speaking in

its defence; nor would he now trouble the committee with any

observations on the subject, if those he made on the introduction of the

business had not been misstated, and his subsequent explanation partly

suppressed. He had stated, when he had laid the resolution on the table,

as a reason for requesting the papers, that important and

constitutional questions would probably arise on the discussion of the

Treaty. It had been represented, (certainly from misapprehension, not

design,) that he confined the use of the papers to the elucidation of a

constitutional question only; and it had been asked, with an air of

great triumph, how the instructions and correspondence could throw any

light on the question of constitutionality, to decide which nothing was

necessary but a comparison of the Treaty with the constitution? Mr. L.

said he had not confined the utility of the papers to that point, but

that, if he had, it would not be difficult to suppose a case in which

they were necessary to determine the constitutionality of the Treaty.

The constitution, he said, gave to the PRESIDENT the power to make

Treaties, "by and with the advice and consent of the Senate." Men,

respectable for their talents and patriotism, had supposed that, by the

true construction of this clause, the PRESIDENT could make no Treaty

unless by the previous advice and consent of the Senate; in other words,

that the Senate should advise the making of a Treaty, which they could

only do before it was commenced; and should consent to it by a

ratification after it was concluded. He would give no positive opinion

on this subject, but supposed it a point worthy the attention of the

House. The construction, he said, appeared reasonable, and had been

heretofore sanctioned by practice. Two instances he could recollect; one

was in the Treaty of Holston, where Governor Blount was "vested with

full powers and specially empowered by and with the advice and consent

of the Senate." The other instance was found in the answer of the

PRESIDENT to the French Minister, who offered to enter into negotiations

for a Treaty of Commerce, which the PRESIDENT declined, by referring him

to the meeting of the Senate, which was not then in session. If the

PRESIDENT supposed he could not commence a negotiation without the

concurrence of the Senate, it gave force to this construction; and, if

it was a true one, nothing was more demonstrable than that the papers

were necessary to determine whether the Treaty in this point had been

constitutionally made.

Two positions had been assumed, differing not materially in the power

ascribed to Treaties, but distinguished chiefly by the mode of applying

this power.

By some it was contended, that the interference of the Legislature was

necessary in some instances, but that the Treaty operated by way of

moral obligation, to enforce the necessary steps to give it validity;

and that though there is a physical power of refusal, yet it ought in no

case to operate against the superior obligation.

Others had asserted, that Treaties being the supreme law, might operate

directly, without the intervention of any other body. That where

existing Legislative acts opposed their execution, the Treaty was

paramount, and could repeal them.

These positions were in fact the same, because, if a Treaty was, at all

events, to have effect, it was perfectly immaterial, whether it operated

directly by its own power, or indirectly by the instrumentality of

another body; both, he thought, equally subversive of the principles of

the Government; but the first was most degrading to the Legislative

dignity. Nor could he discover from what part of the constitution it was

inferred. Wherever, in that instrument, a duty was imposed, it was

clearly and explicitly assigned, as in case of the PRESIDENT's

compensation, that of the judges, and many other instances. It is not,

then, to be conceived, that so important an obligation as this should

have been left to implication. If it had been intended so to annihilate

this discretion, the same language would have been used, "Congress shall

pass laws to carry every Treaty into effect," but nothing of this kind

appears. Again, if it had been intended to make Treaties paramount over

laws, it would seem to have been the more simple mode, to have dispensed

with their interference. Why leave a phantom of discretion, an unreal

mockery of power, in the hands of the Legislature? In order to get rid

of this difficulty, some gentlemen seem willing to allow a species of

volition, but it was a pittance that would be scarcely worth accepting.

In cases of extreme necessity, and in others, where, from corruption or

other good cause, the compact is void, this House, they say, may refuse

to carry it into effect. In the first case, where it is impossible to

give efficacy to a Treaty, the power of refusing it was surely of little

value. And where the compact is void in itself, the liberty of not being

bound by it, would scarcely be contended for. If the subject were less

serious, Mr. L. said, one would be tempted to smile at the efforts that

are made to reconcile the constitutional predestination contended for,

with the free agency of discretion. It was as difficult to be

understood, as the most entangled theological controversy, and, like

most disputants in that science, they concluded with anathemas against

all who could not comprehend, or would not believe them. We have a

discretion, whether to act or not, say they; but we are under an

obligation to act, and if we do not, we are guilty of treason and

rebellion. This was the same kind of discretion a man has, whether he

will commit murder or let it alone; he may do it, but if he does, he

will be hanged. This was a worse alternative than that generally called

Hobson's choice--that was, "this or nothing;" but here we are told, "do

this, or be hanged for a traitor." So that hereafter, when any one

intended to express an inevitable necessity, he would call it

Congressional discretion.

If, then, the Treaty does not operate by way of obligation on the

Legislative power, let us, said Mr. L., examine, whether, as is

contended, "a Treaty is paramount to a law, and can repeal it, though

it, itself, cannot be acted on by the Legislative power;" this, he said,

was the most important question that had ever been agitated within

these walls. It evidently tended to the substitution of a foreign power,

in lieu of the popular branch; it was replete with the most serious

evils. He could never suppose so great and pernicious an absurdity was

contemplated by the constitution; but, if such was the true

construction, great as the evil was, we must submit, until it could be

legally amended.

The constitution gave all Legislative power to the Congress of the

United States; vested the power of making Treaties in the PRESIDENT and

Senate, and declared that the constitution, the laws made in pursuance

thereof, and Treaties made under the authority of the United States,

should be the supreme law of the land. He had always considered the

order in which this enumeration was made as descriptive of the relative

authority of each. 1st. The constitution, which no other act could

operate on. 2d. The laws made in pursuance thereof. 3d. Treaties, when

they contradicted neither; for, if no weight was given to this argument,

Treaties would be superior, both to the constitution and the laws, as

there is no restriction with respect to them, as in the case of laws,

that they be made pursuant to the constitution. He did not believe

gentlemen would contend for this absurdity; they must therefore refer to

the order of the enumeration, to measure the relative effect of the

constitution, laws, and Treaties. If the objects of Legislation and of

Treaty compact could be kept distinct, no question would arise, there

would be no pretext for interference; but they could not; almost every

object of legislation might also become that of compact with a foreign

power.

But it was probable, Mr. L. said, that the Treaty power was intended to

be placed in the PRESIDENT and Senate to the same extent only in which

it existed in the Executive of Great Britain. The words of our

constitution on this point were the same made use of by British writers

in defining the corresponding power in their Government, and it seemed

evident that some of its features (and this was none of the least

prominent) were drawn from that original. He was happy that the parallel

was not perfect in other instances. He thought it completely so in this;

and that the practice therefore of that Government would, in some

measure, lead to the true construction of this. Aware of the weight of

precedents drawn from English history, gentlemen endeavored to weaken

them by a very ingenious argument: "The British Constitution," say they,

"is not written, it is formed of usages; if you prove, therefore, that

it is the usage for British Parliaments to sanction Treaties, you prove

it to be their constitution, but you do not prove it to be ours." It was

true, Mr. L. observed, that the English Constitution was formed partly

of immemorial usages; but it was also true, that those usages were

collected in books of authority, and that the different powers of

Government were generally designated, so that the leading points in

their constitution were as well known and defined as they were in that

of America. It had been shown by a reference to writers of the best

authority, that, by the Constitution of England, the power of making all

Treaties was in the King; but as the power of making all laws was in the

Parliament, this latter, as the greater power, controlled the former,

whenever it affected objects of legislation. Thus, in the Constitution

of the United States, he contended, the power of making Treaties, that

is, all Treaties, vested in the PRESIDENT and Senate; but, as all

Legislative power is vested in Congress, no Treaty operating upon any

object of legislation can take effect until it receives the sanction of

Congress. The practice, too, was the same. The King asserted his right

of making and completing Treaties, by not only concluding, but ratifying

them, before they were submitted to Parliament, but he believed no

Commercial Treaty was proclaimed as the law of the land before it had

received the sanction of Parliament. Indeed, it was impossible, in any

country, and under any constitution, where the Legislative and

Treaty-making powers are lodged in different hands, that any other

construction can be given without running into the absurdity he had

before hinted at, of making two different powers supreme over the same

object at the same time. Our ideas had been confounded by referring to

the practice of Governments where the two powers were united, and where

a ratification gave the consent of both.

If, then, there was a perfect analogy between the power vested in the

Crown in England, and that delegated to the PRESIDENT and Senate in

America, on the subject of Treaties; and if the Parliament, by virtue of

its general Legislative authority, was in the practice of giving or

withholding its sanction to Treaties concluded by the King, it was but a

fair inference to say, that the same discretion existed in Congress.

Some instances of the exercise of this power by Parliament, had been

before quoted by others. The inexecution of the Treaty of Utrecht, in

consequence of Parliamentary opposition, and the difficulties with which

the Commercial Treaty with France was carried through the House of

Commons, in 1787, had been already noticed. He would mention two other

precedents drawn from the same source equally striking, or perhaps more

so, as the course of proceeding there followed was precisely that which

was proposed by the resolution in debate. The first was the proceeding

on the Barrier Treaty, taken from the 5th vol. Parl. Debates, p. 43,

where the House of Commons began, by a resolution to address the Queen,

"that all instruction and orders given to the Plenipotentiaries that

transacted the Barrier Treaty, and also all Treaties mentioned and

referred to in the said Treaty, might be laid before the House, except

such Treaties as they already had." We are told in the subsequent page,

that on the 13th, that is, only two days after the request, "Mr.

Secretary St. John presented to the House, by Her Majesty's command, a

copy of the instructions to the Duke of Marlborough and Lord Townsend,

about the Barrier Treaty, extracts of letters from Mr. Boyle to Lord

Townsend, concerning the said Treaty; also a copy of the Preliminary

Articles, signed at the Hague; the titles of which copies and extracts

of letters were referred to the Committee of the whole House. After

this, it was resolved to present an address to Her Majesty, that the

letters written by Lord Townsend to Mr. Boyle, the Secretary of State,

dated the 1st and 26th of November, 1709, might be laid before the

House, which Mr. Secretary St. John accordingly did on the 14th of

February." After having obtained the papers, Mr. L. said, the House of

Commons proceeded to the consideration of the Treaty in Committee of the

Whole, and voted, 1st. That the Treaty contained articles destructive to

the trade and interest of Great Britain. 2d. That the negotiator had

acted without authority. 3d. That the advisers and negotiators were

enemies to the Queen and Kingdom.

The Treaty being thus obstructed, the States General remonstrated to the

Queen on the subject; but, conscious that the Parliament were only

exercising a constitutional power, they make no complaints in their

memorial of any breach of faith, though the Treaty had been ratified.

They enter into the merits of the Treaty, offer to negotiate on the

obnoxious articles, and conclude with "entreating the continuance of Her

Majesty's friendship."

This instance, then, said Mr. L., is complete to show the propriety of a

call for papers by the House of Commons; a ready compliance on the part

of the Crown, a deliberation on a ratified Treaty, a rejection of it,

and an acquiescence on the part of the foreign nation, without

remonstrance.

The other instance was an address in the year 1714, requesting "the

Treaties of Peace and Commerce between Her Majesty and the King of

Spain, and the instructions given to Her Majesty's Ambassadors

thereupon, together with the copies of the King of Spain's ratifications

of the said Treaties, and the preliminaries signed by the Lord Lexington

and the Marquis of Bedmar, at Madrid, and all other agreements and

stipulations which had been made concerning the commerce between Great

Britain and Spain. 2dly. An account of what engagements of guaranty Her

Majesty had entered into by virtue of any Treaty with any foreign Prince

or State, from the year 1710. And 3dly. An account of what instances had

been used by Her Majesty for restoring to the Catalans their ancient

privileges, and all letters relating thereto. And then it was resolved,

to take into further consideration the Message that day sent from the

Lords upon Thursday next following."

Objections had been raised to this construction, drawn from three

different sources.

1. From the prevalent construction at the time of establishing the

constitution.

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