PHILADELPHIA, _Friday, March 22, 1878_.
Pursuant to adjournment, the committee met, at two o'clock, P.M., this
day, in the St. Cloud hotel, this city, and continued taking of
testimony.
The first witness examined was:
* * * * *
Robert A. Ammon, _sworn_:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. State where you reside?
A. In Pittsburgh, when I am at home.
Q. Where are you doing business now?
A. In the city of New York.
Q. How long have you been there?
A. Since the 31st day of December.
Q. When did you leave Pittsburgh?
A. I left Pittsburgh on the 30th day of December, on the eight o'clock
train.
Q. You mean December last?
A. Yes.
Q. What business were you engaged in prior to the 19th day of July,
1877?
A. I was railroading.
Q. On what road?
A. On the Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne and Chicago.
Q. What position did you occupy on that road?
A. I was a freight brakeman on through freight--fast freight.
Q. How long had you been acting as a freight brakeman?
A. Nearly eleven months.
Q. Where were you on the 19th day of July, when the first disturbance
occurred at Pittsburgh among the railroad employés?
A. I was on the train part of the 19th, and in the city of Pittsburgh
part of the day, and in the city of Allegheny part of the day.
Q. Thursday the 19th?
A. Yes.
Q. State what you saw of the strike--when it commenced there, and what
information you had about it?
A. The first knowledge I had of the strike--I went up to the oil
country on the 16th or 17th--I have forgotten the date--a few days
prior to strike--to take a position with a friend of mine there, who I
had worked for formerly. Before I left Pittsburgh, I had heard of the
strike at Martinsburg, in West Virginia, but didn't pay much attention
to it, as I was acquainted with the men down there, and didn't think it
amounted to a row of pins. I went on up to the oil country. It was on
the 18th day of July. I believe I received a telegram from a particular
friend of mine that trouble was expected in Pittsburgh, and that he
would like me to come down.
Q. Where were you when you received that telegram?
A. At Parker City, Armstrong county.
Q. Who sent you the telegram?
A. A railroad employé.
Q. Give us his name?
A. No; I would rather not.
Q. Very well, go on with the history?
A. He wanted me to answer quick, but I didn't answer the telegram, so I
got another telegram to come down that night, sure, and I did so. I
came down.
Q. To Pittsburgh?
A. Yes.
Q. What time did you arrive there?
A. Seven-thirteen, I think it is. We got in on time that morning.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. The 19th?
A. Yes, I think so--the morning of the strike. I have forgotten the
date. I met some of the boys on jumping off the train, and they told me
what they were going to do, and asked me to go along with them; but I
refused to do that, and told them I didn't think it was any of my
affair at all--that, so far as the union men were concerned, I would
stay with them, but I wouldn't go to the office of the superintendent
of the road with them, because I was not an employé of the road. I had
been discharged before that.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. What did they tell you they were going to do?
A. That they were going to strike.
Q. How many of them?
A. That they were all going to strike. Some friends of mine met me
there, when I came down on the train.
Q. How many of those men met you?
A. I cannot say. There may have been half a dozen or a dozen of them.
Q. What class of men? What position did they hold on the railroad?
A. They were conductors and brakemen.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Were there any engineers?
A. I think there were two or three engineers with them, from the
Connellsville division of the Baltimore and Ohio road. I stayed there,
and talked with them a while, and then went over to Allegheny. I got my
breakfast and fooled around the house with my wife and baby for about
an hour, and then went to bed. I was tired, as I had been up talking
with the conductor of the train all the night before. After I went to
bed they came over and knocked at the door, and asked my wife if I was
in. She said yes, but that I was in bed. They then said that they
wanted to see me, and she said they couldn't, for I was asleep. So they
went away, but came back again, in the course of an hour. I heard the
noise down stairs, and asked what the matter was, and she said that
they wanted me to come out, that they were going out on a strike; but I
refused to go with them, and gave my reasons for refusing to go.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. What were those reasons?
A. These men at the house were members of the Trainmen's Union, but two
or three of them I considered scabs, and didn't want to have anything
to do with them. A strike was to take place on the 27th of June, when
some of those men were instrumental in getting up a rumpus in the
Trainmen's Union, and I didn't want to have anything to do with them. I
went back to bed again, and I think I must have slept until quarter
past two o'clock when five brakemen and two conductors came up to the
house and told my wife that they wanted to see me. She came up and
called me, and I said it is all right, if they are going to strike I
would be there. They went away, and I turned over in bed, and was just
going to take another nap, when my wife called and said, Bob, they are
going to put No. 15 engine on the siding. I jumped up out of bed, and
looked out of the window, and I could see them putting the engine in on
the side track. So I then jumped into my clothing as quick as I could,
and just as I got to the door five or six of them were there, and they
said they wanted me to come quick, that the mayor was coming with
twenty-five police. It is just a stone's throw from my house to the
track, and my wife had something ready to eat, and I just swallowed a
bite and went out on the track. I saw the engine standing there, and
the chief of police and about twenty-five police. I jumped up on the
engine, when he told me to get off the engine. I told him I wouldn't do
it, and I wanted to know why I should, I told him he had no authority.
Then an order was given to arrest me, but Mr. Ross, was a neighbor of
mine and I told him I was a quiet, orderly citizen, and that I refused
to be arrested; that I had not been guilty of any breach of the peace
as I saw; but he said, Bob, you had better get off the engine, when I
said I wouldn't be put off, but as the dispatcher instructed me to get
off the engine I got off. I then started down to the lower end of the
yard. Before I got down there the dispatcher asked me what I was going
to do, and I said I was going down to see the fun. He said, you are
not, you are going down to countenance the strikers. I said, Mr. Ross,
I am not. He said, you are in sympathy with them, and I said I am, but
I would not say one word to them. So I went down there, and got in the
midst of them, and with that the chief of police and twenty-five
policemen were told to disperse the men there. They wanted the men
dispersed. The police commenced to circulate pretty free among the
boys, and I said it was not right, and jumped up on a box car and
called for them to come over to me. They all came. I saw Mayor Philips,
of Allegheny, there, and they cried out to me to tell him just what
they were there for, and who they were, and I did so. I explained to
the chief of police and the mayor who they were and what they were
going to do.
Q. What time was that?
A. About two-twenty.
Q. Thursday or Friday afternoon?
A. That was Friday. I have not got the date.
Q. You say two-twenty?
A. Yes.
Q. All this occurred on Friday?
A. Yes; all this occurred on Friday.
Q. At the Fort Wayne and Chicago depot?
A. Yes.
Q. Go on.
A. The police didn't disperse them. They couldn't get the train out,
and they started to run the engine back into the round-house.
Q. Who is Mr. Ross?
A. The dispatcher of the Fort Wayne road, and Mr. Ross is the chief of
police.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. He is a brother?
A. No; he is no relation to him at all. That afternoon two or three
sections of freight came in, and some of us jumped up on the cars and
told the boys what we were doing, and they all came right with us. They
stored everything away--put everything in good shape.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. What do you mean by storing things away?
A. Putting things away compactly on the tracks. To go back now to Mayor
Phillips. I read his statement in the Pittsburgh _Dispatch_. As
soon as I jumped down off the box car, Mayor Phillips sent one of his
police officers over to me, who said that he would like to see me. I
told him it was all right, and I walked over to where he was and spoke
to him. He said that he had heard everything I had said, and I asked
him if he had any fault to find with it, and he said no. I believe I
told him just what we intended to do, and that he should not be alarmed
about our destroying property or the safety of the city or anything of
that kind. That we intended to strike and were going to strike, and
thought that we had a right to strike. I asked him if I had been guilty
of any breach of the peace, one way or the other, and he told me no,
and that as long as I did not do anything worse, that no one could
arrest me, and that I should resist if any one did attempt to arrest
me. Before he went away he told me that he would leave that portion of
Allegheny in my charge. Several of the boys heard what was said, and
they repeated it to the others, and they told the mayor that anything I
said would be carried out. I never saw Mayor Phillips after that.
Q. Who stood by during that conversation with Mayor Phillips--anybody?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you name any of the parties?
A. I would rather not, for this reason, there is an indictment hanging
against me in Allegheny county, and I wrote to my attorney about this
matter, and he told me that he did not want me to say anything that
would have any bearing on my trial. These men I have subpoenaed as
witnesses, and they are working on the road now.
Q. Go on for the present?
A. We got everything into as good shape as possible. Wherever we could
get hold of the wires we used them.
Q. Do I understand you to say that you took charge of the telegraph
office.
A. No; but we telegraphed wherever we could wire--we used the
telegraph. They had got orders not to allow any messages to go over the
wires from actual or intended strikers anywheres.
Q. Go on and relate from that time what occurred during the progress of
the strike?
A. I would sooner answer questions than tell you. I cannot give the
story in full, and I do not want to give it to you half. So far as I am
individually concerned, I would not care; but there are other men
interested, and I would not want to implicate them.
Q. How large was the crowd on Friday afternoon, when Mayor Phillips was
at the depot?
A. I should judge there was in the neighborhood--railroad men there--a
hundred, and two or three times as many citizens.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. On Friday?
A. Yes.
Q. Did any freight cars leave the depot or arrive at the depot that
night--Friday night?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you allow any freight trains to go out after that time?
A. We did.
Q. How many?
A. None went, but we allowed them to go if they could get the men. I
told Mayor Phillips distinctly, that if they could get scabs enough to
go on them that I would guarantee that any man who would scab it over
the road would not be hurt.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. What do you mean by a scab?
A. I consider a scab when a set of men combine themselves together for
a certain purpose--when a man goes back on his obligations, or, in
other words, if a man will work for less wages than his fellow men, and
preach before going out on a strike that he will stand up for those
wages.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. You call those scabs?
A. Yes.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Do you mean non-union men?
A. Yes; but it is not necessary that a man should be a non-union man to
be a scab. What I call a scab is a man that will take an oath and go
back on that oath--perjure himself.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. You mean belong to a union and go back on the order?
A. Yes; but I say it is not necessary that a man should belong to a
union. I mean a man that will turn around and work for less money.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Do I understand you to say that you were willing to let trains go
out if they could get the men to run them?
A. Yes; I stated that distinctly, and others there heard it.
Q. Was any attempt made to start trains?
A. They called on every man on the road, and every man refused to go
out.
Q. Did you or the party with you interfere with trains going out in any
way?
A. No.
Q. You were the leader of the party on the Fort Wayne and Chicago road?
A. I was supposed to be.
Q. Did you interfere with the men who wanted to go out in any way?
A. No.
Q. Did you try to persuade the men not to go out or to run their
trains?
A. At what time?
Q. At any time during the progress of the strike or previous to the
strike?
A. Undoubtedly, I did. I was a member of the Trainmen's Union--I was
the head of it--I mean the union. We said that if they did not give us
our wages we would not work.
Q. On Friday, did you try to persuade any men not to go out?
A. Directly?
Q. Yes?
A. No, sir; I did not.
Q. Did any of the strikers?
A. I would rather not answer that question.
Q. It is a fair question. Did any of them try to persuade men not to
run their trains?
A. They did through moral suasion. They talked to them kindly and
pleasantly. They did not threaten them or anything of that kind.
Q. No threats were made?
A. No.
Q. And no attempt at violence was made?
A. We did not try to bulldoze anybody.
Q. During Friday night and during the day, Saturday, you were masters
of the situation there in Allegheny City? That part of the city was
placed in your care?
A. Yes.
Q. How large was the crowd during Saturday night?
A. It was large. It would be pretty hard to tell. Sometimes it was a
pretty big crowd, and sometimes it was not so big.
Q. How many actual strikers were there?
A. They were all there. All the brakemen and firemen were there anyhow.
Q. How large was the number of actual strikers collected together there
during Friday and Saturday and Sunday--taking in those days?
A. From one hundred and fifty to three hundred.
Q. Did you learn that troops were expected to arrive from Erie or from
Meadville?
A. Yes.
Q. On Saturday and Saturday night?
A. Yes.
Q. State what was done to prevent those troops from coming in--what
measures the strikers adopted, if any.
A. I believe they let them come. I do not know why General Huidekoper
did not come.
Q. Was it arranged among yourselves to let them come in?
A. I believe they could have come as far as Allegheny City.
Q. Did not the strikers send a party down to the lower end of the yard,
or below the depot, to intercept any train of troops that might be
coming in?
A. Some people did go down. I suppose they just walked down that way to
see how things were going.
Q. Was it not agreed that no troops should be allowed to arrive?
A. I do not see how they were going to stop the troops coming to
Allegheny City, unless they threw them off the track.
Q. Was not that the arrangement--to throw them off the track to prevent
their arrival?
A. No.
Q. Did not a party come down armed to prevent the troops from coming
in?
A. No; they did not. Men were stationed as far as Sewickley. I suppose
some had guns or revolvers.
Q. Strikers?
A. Men in sympathy with the strikers.
Q. What were they stationed along there for?
A. I suppose they wanted to know what was coming up along the road, or
something of that kind. We did not know what was going to happen. They
thought that maybe some soldiers might be coming up along the road. We
would have known it then if the soldiers had come. They could not have
got to Homewood unless we would have known it.
Q. Why?
A. We knew perfectly that No. 18 was carrying signals for the
southward. It is the Erie night express, due in Allegheny at eleven
o'clock.
Q. Who stationed those men along the road at Sewickley?
A. I suppose they walked down themselves.
Q. Who stationed them there? Who gave them orders to go there and
occupy those positions?
A. I do not know that anybody gave them orders to occupy positions
along the road, or to fire into trains, or anything of that kind. Men
were sent down the road to watch everything.
Q. Sent by the strikers, were they?
A. Yes.
Q. What were they to watch--what instructions were they given?
A. If the troops were coming up we wanted to know something about it.
We did not have engines to fire up and the water had run out, and so
those men were stationed down there. Some had arms and some had not. If
the troops came up and disembarked at Sewickley, or east of Sewickley,
we would know it, by their discharging their pieces, that the troops
had disembarked.
Q. They were to fire off their pieces as a signal?
A. Yes; to let us know what the troops were doing.
Q. Was it arranged that they should prevent the trains from coming in?
A. The calculation was to let the trains come right up to Strawberry
lane.
Q. Through the Fort Wayne depot?
A. It is below--at the lower end of the yard.
Q. That is where the larger portion of the strikers were?
A. It was head-quarters.
Q. Your intrenchments were there?
A. There were intrenchments there.
Q. What did you intend to do, then, in case the troops came up to
Strawberry lane?
A. We proposed to interview them before they got to Strawberry lane.
Q. How interview them?
A. We proposed to get on the train at Wood run, about two miles below
there.
Q. How many were to get aboard the train there?
A. About three.
Q. For what purpose?
A. To see the commanding officer there and have a little talk with him
and explain matters to him.
Q. What did you intend to do in case the troops arrived?
A. We proposed to dance in case the soldiers played the music, that is
all about it.
Q. Did you propose to fight the soldiers?
A. No, sir; we did not, but we did not propose to be shot down like
dogs by any men.
Q. Were you armed?
A. We were.
Q. With what kind of arms?
A. There were so many different kinds that I cannot enumerate them.
Q. Enumerate some of them?
A. Well, improved needle guns, and shot guns, and rifles, and
revolvers--things of that kind.
Q. Where did you get your arms?
A. At different places.
Q. Name some of the places?
A. Pittsburgh and Allegheny.
Q. At what particular places did you get them?
A. We got some of them on Sixth street, Pittsburgh.
Q. At whose establishment, or store?
A. We did not get them out of a store.
Q. Where did you get them?
A. I was not along with them when they got them.
Q. State if you know where you got them?
A. I cannot state that, because I did not see them, I only heard so.
They got them out of a wagon, that is all I know.
Q. You say from a wagon?
A. Or bus.
Q. Did you get any anywhere else?
A. Yes.
Q. Where?
A. In Allegheny city.
Q. At what point?
A. Not far away from the suspension bridge.
Q. Go on and state all the particulars?
A. If it was myself alone I would not care.
Q. You need not name individuals?
A. If I was to tell you where those men got them, you could find out
who was there. I lay in prison three months because I would not tell
that, and I do not propose to tell it now.
Q. But you say you had arms?
A. Yes; given to us by citizens.
Q. Of Pittsburgh?
A. Yes; and Allegheny. I was offered two hundred stand of arms more
than I had.
Q. By citizens?
A. Yes; and two very prominent citizens of Allegheny. One of them has
testified before this honorable committee. He offered to furnish a
hundred stand of arms, and told me----
Q. Do you mean Mayor Phillips?
A. No.
Q. Have you any objections to stating who offered you the arms. It is a
matter of importance, and you have made an oath----
A. I know that, but I would rather not answer the question.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. When were those arms offered?
A. Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.
Q. But they were offered for the purpose of keeping the peace, were
they not? You had promised to keep order?
A. I did, undoubtedly, promise that to Mayor Phillips, and my action
shows that I was a quiet and peaceable citizen.
Q. But were not those arms offered for the purpose of keeping the
peace?
A. Nothing was said about that at all, sir. Nothing was said about it
at all.
Q. But those arms were not given you to resist the troops?
A. Yes, they were; some of them.
Q. You say that the citizens gave you those arms to resist the troops?
A. Yes.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did those two prominent citizens?
A. No, sir; they did not.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. What did they give you the arms for?
A. Nothing was said.
Q. What did these two prominent citizens offer you the arms for?
A. One of them spoke for himself, and mentioned another prominent
citizen who would also furnish arms.
Q. What day was that?
A. I won't be positive--it was either Saturday evening or Sunday
evening--no, I am sure it was Sunday evening.
Q. What was the conversation about--in what connection did he offer you
those arms?
A. The way it came about was this. He came over to Allegheny to the
telegraph office, and asked some man outside where Mr. Ammon was, and
he said inside the office. He asked if I would see him. I knew him by
reputation, and I met him in the private telegraph office--he came in
there. He told me he would like to have ten minutes of my time. He then
sat down, and then asked me to give him the wages that each man was
paid on the road--brakemen, firemen, engineers, and conductors. I sat
down and talked with him awhile, and gave him those figures. Then he
asked me whether the majority of the railroad men were single men or
married men, and I told him they were married men. And he said he could
not blame the men for striking, and that he hoped and prayed they would
stand out like men, but not be guilty of any violence, and that as long
as we did that we would have the support of every citizen of Allegheny
county. And he said that if we wanted any assistance or any help, that
he would give both money and arms--he said I will furnish a hundred
stand of arms, and I know another prominent citizen who told me that he
would also furnish arms. I thanked him, and my attention was called in
another direction.
Q. Did he mention the name of the other citizen?
A. He did.
Q. Now we would like to have the names of those individuals?
A. I have no objection to giving them to the committee privately, but I
don't want them to be known.
By Mr. Means:
Q. You said if the soldiers fiddled, you proposed to dance?
A. Yes.
Q. Then you intended, if the soldiers pretended to sustain good order,
to resist them?