Q. Pennsylvania?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are you in the employ of the Pennsylvania Company now?
A. I am.
Q. Were you in July last, the 19th of July?
A. I have been employed on the road for seventeen years, in the
capacity of engineer. If it is necessary, I will just state what I know
about it, if it is in evidence. On the morning of Thursday, 19th July,
I think it was, the trains were all to be run double. I took out the
first train. I was called at three o'clock in the morning, to take out
the first train, and there was no trouble then, nor knew of any
trouble. We went out--went to Derry.
Q. What hour did you leave?
A. I left at three o'clock in the morning, and got to Derry about
seven, and returned. Coming back, before I got to the city, the other
side of Walls station, I remarked to my fireman, that I thought there
must be a wreck on the road. We had met no freights. We should have met
some east of that, several miles. But paid no attention much to it,
until I came in sight of Walls station. The accommodation is due there,
then, twelve-forty, and I just remarked that if there was a wreck, I
suppose they could run the accommodation round, as they often did, in
such cases. When I came down--the conductor lives just a little way
below--he got on my engine and rode down with me, and I asked him what
was the matter, there was nothing out. He just made the remark, that
the boys would not let anything go out this morning. That is the first
intimation I had of anything, or I believe even the crews. They did not
seem to know anything about it.
Q. What time was that?
A. It was about twelve-forty. We came on to the city unmolested by any
person, until we came to Torrens station, that is a little way from
East Liberty. There was a crowd there, but didn't seem to be doing
anything--nobody was doing anything. We had some work to do, to put
some cars in or something, and I just remarked to the crowd that was on
the other side, says I, "What's going on here?" Says one, "Lots of
fun." Mr. Garrett, the train master, gave the signal to me, and we went
on, and came down to Twenty-eighth street, and what astonished me more
than anything else was the crowd that was there, and the few people
that I knew. They were strangers to me. At Twenty-eighth street I could
not recognize but a few of our own men. They were all strangers to me.
I passed on down with the train, took it to the west end of the yard,
and put it away, and backed up my engine to the round-house, and put it
in the round-house, and went home. Then I hadn't had any dinner--it was
nearly three o'clock. I went home to dinner, and I didn't come up that
afternoon, I don't think, again. I was up the next day around, but
there was nothing going out, and the way we were running--some one
remarked to me, I could not tell who it was--says he, "Go ahead, you
can go in, but you can't go out." Says I, "Never mind, it is not my
turn to go out."
Q. Were you put on Friday?
A. Yes; I was about.
Q. Was you ready to take out your train?
A. I was ready, and came up there on Friday. One of the officers
remarked to me, there was nothing going out. It seemed to be this way:
that if they got a train ready and the engine, there was no crew, and
if you got a crew, there was no engine or anything else there. Some of
the officers remarked to me that the Philadelphia soldiers were coming
in, and everything would go on then as usual. I think I went home, and
I didn't come back again that night. In the morning--Saturday morning,
six o'clock--I was sent for to come up and go out. I believe before I
had my breakfast. As soon as I got breakfast I went out, but I didn't
see nothing for me to go out on, and I stood around there until eleven
o'clock on Saturday, I think eleven or twelve, and I then just remarked
to the foreman--I think it was the foreman, in the round-house--that I
was going down home, and that if they wanted me, to send a watchman
down to me, I would be at home--I would not be away from home. I said
to my family, I believed I would go to bed and take some sleep, for I
might have to come out to-night. I suppose it was fortunate for me I
was not up in the crowd at the time of the shooting. I might have been
there.
Q. Were you ready at all times to take out your train?
A. Provided everything had been all right I would. I would not like the
idea of starting out there on Sunday morning. I didn't think I would
like to take out a train then.
Q. Thought there was too big a crowd to get through?
A. I didn't feel like it.
Q. You were ready to go if the track was clear?
A. Yes; oh, yes.
Q. Had you heard, prior to your information at Walls, anything about
the strike?
A. Never had the least intimation, because I do not think it was a
pre-arranged matter at all. It did not seem to me that anybody seemed
to know. No; I knew nothing about it, and nobody else seemed to know
anything about it. The order was given on Wednesday, I think, that all
trains would be run double from Thursday. That seemed to be a kind of
sticker on some of them. They didn't care much whether they started or
not, and some of them that morning, on the eight-forty train, refused
to go out. They didn't care whether they went out or not, and just
quit.
Q. There had been no pre-arranged plan for a strike to take place at
that time?
A. Not that I had ever heard of.
Q. Had there been any arrangement made for a strike at or near that
time?
A. Not to my knowledge. Not among the engineers, or so far as I know.
Q. Did you know of the existence of what was called the Trainmen's
Union?
A. I did not at that time.
Q. Had no knowledge of that?
A. Had no knowledge nor no idea of anything of the kind going on.
Q. Had you talked with the conductors or brakesmen--had intercourse
with them?
A. Oh, yes; there was never one of them mentioned anything of the kind
to me, nothing of the kind at all. In fact, I don't have as much
intercourse with the trainmen on the road as we did formerly when they
had no caboose. Of late years they have been running cabooses, and they
generally congregate there themselves.
Q. Engineers congregate more on their engine?
A. Yes; all the time train men go back in the caboose.
Q. You have an organization among the engineers?
A. There is an organization existing.
Q. Is that for engineers especially?
A. Especially, yes.
Q. Was there any talk of that kind in that organization that you know
of--of striking?
A. Not a particle, not at the time.
Q. During the progress of the depredations or burning on Sunday were
you present?
A. I was; I live close by.
Q. What class of men were engaged in active arson and destruction of
property--burning?
A. It appears to me the roughest class of people I ever saw. They
appeared to be all strangers to me. I was present when the alarm of
fire was struck. I was at the corner of Twenty-sixth street, right
opposite the round-house, where the soldiers were. I was coming down, I
guess it was ten o'clock or near eleven, and the firemen responded to
the alarm, and came up Penn avenue a little above my house, and they
was stopped by the crowd. They told them they could not go any further.
I was across the street. I heard one man say, "I will shoot the horse,
and if you undertake to go, I will shoot you." They ran across the
street, and came right beside me, and I heard them say they would have
them out of there if they would have to burn them out. I just said,
said I, "my God, men, don't set anything on fire here, you will burn it
all up," and the answer he made was, "Go to hell, you son of a bitch."
That was the very words he made use of. I thought the least I could say
was the best, as I was by myself.
Q. Were there any railroad men engaged during the day Sunday?
A. I didn't see one railroad man to my knowledge, not an employé of the
Pennsylvania railroad.
Q. Men that had been discharged, did you see any of that kind?
A. I did not see any of the kind.
Q. What did you, in connection with other railroad men, do to try and
stop this?
A. We did not do very much, for we could not. It seemed as though
everybody was intimidated, and felt himself afraid to undertake to do
anything. I did, I know, as one by myself. I do not think, in a crowd
of men, it would have been useless to try to stop the burning at nine
o'clock in the morning.
Q. Sunday morning?
A. Sunday morning. The whole yard was in flames.
Q. Did you have any communication with the committee that was sent up
from Harrisburg?
A. I did; I believe I did.
Q. State what that was?
A. General Brown came to me in the morning--about five o'clock.
Q. Sunday morning?
A. Sunday morning; and said to me--he wanted to know where this
committee of railroad men was. I told him that I did not know where it
was, but, says I, maybe I could find some of them. If we could get past
Twenty-sixth street we might get some of them; but you can't pass
through, they are shooting us there. Says he, tell them to come down to
the Union depot, that I am authorized to give the men what they ask.
There was a party went down there, and they could not find General
Brown or any one else.
Q. Who was it went down?
A. I went down for one, and I didn't mind who else went down, it was
impossible to get one of that committee, because they were scattered
all through the city.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Were you on this committee of safety or any sub-committee, appointed
by them, to go and confer with the strikers at any time.
A. No, I do not think--I think we went down. There was a committee of
safety come up there, and I think Captain McMunn and myself and some of
our ward boys, several of us, went down.
Q. As railroad men?
A. As railroad men, we went down. I got into the crowd down here, right
below the elevator there, tried to find the leading man of the
citizens' committee, and they got to shooting, and the crowd ran down
there. There was a tremendous crowd there, and carried us along with
them. I do not think there was any use to try to do anything at all.
Q. You said you would not like to have attempted to get out with that
train on Saturday?
A. No; I would not.
Q. Did you apprehend any danger from any one?
A. None. I would not have apprehended any danger, I think, from anybody
but from outsiders.
Q. Not from the railroad men?
A. Not from the railroad men. I did not think that they would interfere
with me.
Q. Did you hear any threats of violence from the railroad men or
engineers or any railroad strikers?
A. No; not to me at all.
Q. From any one else?
A. I did from outsiders--remarks--but I didn't know who they were--that
the first man that would attempt to go out had better hunt his coffin.
Q. You saw the handling of cars and engines by the rioters during the
destruction of property there in the vicinity of Twenty-eighth street
and at the depot--did these men handle the cars and engines as if they
had been accustomed to handling cars and engines?
A. I didn't see anybody handling an engine. After the soldiers went
into the round-house, I never went up near the place, that is, further
than going up some of the side streets to look over the burning. All
the engines were further up, at Twenty-eighth street. I was not up
there.
Q. You saw none of the mob taking engines and running them on the
track?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you see them handling the cars and switches?
A. I did not.
Q. You were speaking of an association of engineers. Is that the
Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was there any coöperation or action between that association and the
Trainmen's Union at any time that you know of?
A. I do not think there was any of any account?
Q. If there was, you would know it?
A. I believe I should know it. There was a disposition on the part of
all the men, when the strike had occurred, to stand out for their ten
per cent. That was their object.
Q. That is, you mean all the trainmen, and engineers as well?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are you a member of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers?
A. I was. I believe the order in this vicinity has disappeared.
Q. That association was got up for protection--a charitable institution
for those that were connected with it?
A. Nothing to interfere with the railroad.
Q. If there had been any coöperation between the Trainmen's Union, or
any connection between them and your association, you would likely know
something about it.
A. Yes; there was this, so far as the ten per cent. went. That I
believe was all after the burning. I do not think there was any
connection with it before.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Was there any coöperation or pre-arranged plan to strike for the
purpose of securing this ten per cent.?
A. No, sir; not at all. The trouble had originated not until after
there had been a committee to see Mr. Scott; but the thing had dropped,
and I had heard nothing of it from the time that committee reported,
and I do not remember the report they made, either.
Q. Was there a general dissatisfaction and complaint on the part of the
railroad employés on account of this reduction of pay?
A. There was. That seemed to be a great deal of the trouble. They were
dissatisfied with the pay they were getting.
Q. In your opinion, did that lead to the strike and trouble here?
A. I do not think it did. No, sir; I do not think so.
Q. What was it that led to the disturbance?
A. I do not think that would lead to it, because if the committee of
engineers went to see the general officers, and they didn't get
satisfaction, or claimed that the business that they were doing could
not pay it, the men would have waited until such time as they would.
They claimed that they were in pretty close quarters financially, but
as soon as business would warrant, why they would restore it.
Q. What led to immediate troubles here? What was the immediate cause?
A. Running these double trains.
Q. Double-headers, as they were called?
A. Double-headers, as we called them.
Q. Why was there less objection to running double-headers?
A. In the first place it is very disagreeable for the men, and they
consider it dangerous for one thing, and in running these trains it
cuts a good many of them out of employment.
Q. Reduce the force of train men, not engineers?
A. Not of engineers, of trainmen.
Q. Wherein consisted the danger of running double-headers?
A. In the first place you hold just twice as many cars, and you don't
have any more men on the train to hold them. Brakemen would hold
thirty-four cars with two engines, and seventeen cars with one. If
these trains get started they are pretty hard to manage.
Q. Did you have these engines at the head of the trains at all times,
or did you have one in the front and one in the rear?
A. At the head all the time, they consider it safer that way to run
them than to run one behind. Going through these up and down grades and
turning is liable to break.
Q. The only danger there was in not having the same number of brakesmen
to the same number of cars as you do when you run the single train?
A. That would have helped the matter considerably, I believe.
Q. There was no other danger?
A. There was no other danger.
Q. Could not that danger have been counteracted by having less trains?
A. They would not think that was safer.
Q. Would not there have been less danger by taking two trains and
making one, and running them on the track--less danger of collisions
than if you had to have two trains instead of one?
A. There is more danger running this double train than the single
trains, because they are harder to manage.
Q. You can handle a train more readily?
A. Yes; check it up quicker. You can check a train much quicker--a
light train than a heavy one--and they are less liable to break in the
dark and in the fog. In the fog you can't tell whether they are broken
or not. They might stop, and the hind part run into the front part,
which has been frequently done.
* * * * *
J. F. Cluley, _sworn_.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Where do you live?
A. Centre avenue, city.
Q. What is your business?
A. Painter.
Q. Go on and state what you know in relation to the riots of last July?
A. On the Saturday, probably about half-past two, I went up to the
depot and went in, and the Philadelphia soldiers were about starting
out. I got up to Twenty-eighth street probably half an hour before they
did. Everything was quiet there--at Twenty-eighth street. There was a
company keeping the street clear--a company of troops.
Q. Who was that company commanded by?
A. I do not know. It looked like a cavalry company on foot from the
trimmings on their clothes. As soon as the Philadelphia troops came up
the mob closed round, and commenced hooting and hollering.
Q. Go on and state what took place there?
A. I suppose I had been up there probably twenty minutes, when they
formed a double line and cleared the track. I was throwed over toward
the round-house. I went round the cars at Twenty-eighth street,
probably two hundred feet up the hill. There was a ravine coming down
there, and I got outside of it. I don't mind how long I had been in
there before the troops formed. At that time they had swept the tracks,
and there was two or three lines formed outside the tracks. The troops
had done some manoeuvering, they had marched up right against the
track. At that time Twentieth street was blocked, and they marched, and
the crowd did not get away, and they stepped back and made a bayonet
charge. It seems to me after they had marched up against them I saw
some men stagger, but I was too far off. About the time they made the
bayonet charge there was a stone or three or four stones came from the
direction of the hospital, and a pistol shot fired.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. From the direction of the hospital?
A. There is a watch-box there--it was not more than three stones, I
think, they throwed. It was done just about the time the bayonet charge
was made, and then there was a pistol shot about the same time.
Q. From the crowd?
A. It was generally in that direction; I suppose it was in the crowd.
Then the firing was done just after.
Q. Did you hear any command to fire?
A. No; I was two hundred feet back. I was in a position that I could
see the whole thing take place.
Q. Did the men fire as if they had received a command?
A. It appeared to be a scattered fire. As soon as they commenced
firing, I started up on the hill. Some one called out they were firing
blank cartridges, and I seen the dust flying around, and I threw myself
down like everybody else. There was a man shot within the length of
this room from me, and killed--a man named Ray, I think. I then started
down hill, and when I was coming down I saw a man on the far side of
Twenty-eighth street swing round a freight car, and throw into the
company--he threw three or four stones or some missiles in among them,
the last, when I was down almost to the track, and I thought every
stone I seen throwed, I thought they would fire.
Q. Was it before they had fired?
A. After the firing, he swung around, and seemed to be inviting them, I
thought, to do something.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Inviting the soldiers?
A. It looked as though he was. He was holding on to the iron rod on the
car, and was swinging on in front of them. He was a large man, about
six feet, very genteelly dressed--more so than the common run of them.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. This man you saw swinging on round there, trying to make an effort
to exasperate them?
A. It looked as though he was inviting them.
Q. It looked as though he was trying to exasperate them?
A. It looked as though he was inviting them to fire. I crossed the
track ten minutes after the firing was over. The soldiers seemed to be
laying huddled together. This stone throwing was right in among them.
Q. Did you see any of the soldiers struck down by missiles before the
firing took place?
A. When the first advance was made, I thought I saw one of them
stagger. I cannot tell whether they were hit. After they made the
bayonet charge the parties took their hands and threw the guns up.
Q. What was the appearance of the class of men that threw the stones?
A. This I think was a half grown boy that threw the missiles from the
back of the house.
Q. A boy?
A. It looked to me. Three or four have grown boys there.
Q. Did you see any men there throwing stones?
A. I don't recollect of seeing any stones throwed, except at this
watch-box, until I saw this man, after the firing was all over. The
track was perfectly clear when I crossed.
Q. What was the character of the crowd immediately in front of the
military, or near the military?
A. Rough looking. I had seen the same crowd around for two or three
days. I had been out and in on the railroad. I had seen them at ...
street and Twenty-eighth street, for two or three days.
Q. Would you take them to be citizens of Harrisburg?
A. Yes, sir; not as a general thing. I know some of the conductors of
the trains remarked to me that everybody was going in and nobody was
coming out--all the tramps come in town and none going out.
Q. These men--would you take them to be what is generally denominated
tramps?
A. Not all of them. Generally a pretty rough looking set. On the hill
side there was plenty of women and children.
Q. I mean in the immediate vicinity of where the troubles were?
A. These were a rough looking set of men. I won't say they were all
tramps. They were a rough looking set of men. I noticed them before the
military came up. There was no disturbance at all until after the
military came up. They were all quiet.
Q. They resisted the military, when they came up?
A. After they formed a line and made a charge.
Q. They resisted the military before the firing?
A. Yes; they stood right like a wall. The military marched up, and they
didn't give the least bit. Then they stepped back a piece or two, and
made a bayonet charge. I was not close enough to hear any orders given.
* * * * *