ORPHANS' COURT ROOM,
PITTSBURGH, _Wednesday, February 13, 1878_.
Pursuant to adjournment, the committee assembled at ten o'clock
A.M., this day, and continued taking of testimony.
The first witness examined was:
* * * * *
Henry Coates, _sworn with the uplifted hand_:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Were you a member of the fire department last July?
A. No; I was a member of the police force.
Q. What position did you hold?
A. I was a lieutenant.
Q. How many men did you have control of?
A. I had forty men that night of Saturday.
Q. Where were you on Thursday?
A. Sleeping. We had no day force in the city at that time.
Q. Were you not around during the day, Thursday?
A. No.
Q. Where were you on Friday?
A. In bed.
Q. During the night of Thursday, where were you?
A. On duty from Eleventh street to Thirty-third street.
Q. Taking in Twenty-eighth street?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there any disturbance--any overt act?
A. No; but there was a collection of people. Sometimes there would not
be over thirty or forty.
Q. What class of people?
A. Railroaders, particularly.
Q. What was the conduct of the people?
A. They were quiet. There was no trouble at all.
Q. Did they remain there?
A. They would pass up and down, talking among themselves.
Q. Hid you have any conversation with them?
A. No.
Q. Did you ask them why they were there?
A. No; it was not an infrequent occurrence to see men there. It is a
principal street to go up to go to work.
Q. On Friday night how large was the crowd?
A. One hundred or so.
Q. Were they railroad men on Friday night?
A. Yes; principally. They appeared to be very quiet talking among
themselves.
Q. What were they saying?
A. That they did not let me hear.
Q. Did you report to the chief of police or the mayor?
A. I made a report every morning.
Q. You reported that crowd to him?
A. Yes.
Q. But received no orders?
A. No; no orders to disperse them or anything else.
Q. Were the saloons open in that part of the city during Thursday,
Friday, and Saturday. Were they closed at all?
A. I ordered them to close on Saturday evening.
Q. At what time?
A. About eight o'clock.
Q. During Saturday night, describe what took place?
A. I do not know that I can.
Q. You were not on duty during the firing?
A. No; that took place before we went on duty.
Q. How large was the crowd?
A. They began to come--three or four hundred--or two hundred--squads
coming from different places all during Saturday night and Sunday
morning. Nearly everybody in the city was in that neighborhood--or the
biggest part of them.
Q. What time did the burning commence?
A. In the neighborhood of ten and half or a quarter to eleven o'clock.
A crowd had congregated around the fire-alarm box, and would not let
the men pull it.
Q. Where did the fire break out first?
A. I was about Twenty-eighth street when it broke out. I should judge
between Thirty-first and Thirty-second street on the railroad.
Q. What was set on fire?
A. Oil, from the appearance of the smoke.
Q. What did they do with the cars after they set them on fire?
A. They cut them loose and ran them.
Q. How many men were engaged in that?
A. I cannot say that at all.
Q. Were you near the round-house during the night?
A. Yes; with the mayor of the city. I went to Twenty-seventh street,
and passed the round-house, and tried to get in a place where it was
reported a lady was shot--opposite the round-house. That was after the
firing had taken place--about eleven o'clock.
Q. Did you succeed in getting in?
A. No; it was in a small saloon, and I had notified them in the early
part of the evening to close, and for that reason they would not let us
in.
Q. Were you there on Sunday morning?
A. Yes; until after the troops left.
Q. Did you see them march out?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did they come out?
A. On Twenty-sixth street--out of the gate.
Q. Did they march in good order?
A. Yes.
Q. Were they fired upon?
A. Not in our neighborhood.
Q. By the crowd?
A. No.
Q. How large a crowd was there or around there when they marched out?
A. I saw one citizen.
Q. Did you know him?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was he?
A. Captain ---- McMunn. There had been quite a crowd before they filed
on to Penn street, but they all broke.
Q. They broke when they saw the troops?
A. Yes; the cry was raised when they came out that they were going down
to the Union depot, and the mob undertook to get down and cut them off.
Q. The mob broke and ran towards the river?
A. Any place where they could run away.
Q. You mean to say that the mob ran from the military, when they came
out?
A. They did.
Q. How long was it before the mob re-assembled?
A. I did not see them re-assemble.
Q. Were you there during the day?
A. Shortly after that I had to come to the central station and take
charge of the prisoners we had arrested.
Q. How many prisoners did you have arrested up there?
A. I cannot say the number.
Q. Can you give us an estimate?
A. About seventy-five, I suppose.
Q. What were they arrested for?
A. For having goods in their possession--cloth, and everything they
could get hold of.
Q. Did you take them before the mayor?
A. Before Acting-Mayor Butler.
Q. What did he do with them?
A. Some of them were dismissed, and some were sent to jail, and some
were fined.
Q. Some were dismissed?
A. Yes.
Q. Why?
A. That I cannot tell you.
Q. Was there no evidence against them?
A. Evidence of having goods in their possession, certainly. We arrested
some of them with guns.
Q. Muskets?
A. Yes, and shot guns.
Q. Were any of those dismissed?
A. That I cannot say.
Q. About how many of those were dismissed?
A. That I cannot tell you.
Q. What time did you return to the scene of the riot?
A. After getting through with the prisoners, I was then ordered by the
mayor to report to the chief engineer of the fire department for duty.
Q. What did you do?
A. I did all I could. Being an engineer by trade, I took spells at
running an engine and worked with them after the neighborhood of seven
o'clock that evening.
Q. Were you interfered with by the mob?
A. I was not.
Q. Whereabouts did you work?
A. Generally at the engine.
Q. At what points?
A. Twenty-fifth and Twenty-sixth, and Seventeenth and Sixteenth streets.
And from there I went with the fuel wagon.
Q. Did you receive any assistance from the police?
A. They were there, and doing all they could, but the police was small
at that time.
Q. Were you at the Union depot when it was set on fire?
A. No.
By Mr. Dewees:
Q. Those goods--what became of them?
A. They were turned over to the commissioners, I understood.
Q. They were goods taken out the cars?
A. Yes.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Why were those prisoners taken before Deputy Mayor Butler?
A. I cannot answer that question.
Q. Where did he sit?
A. In the central station, where we usually held the mayor's court.
Q. The mayor's office?
A. It is the central station-house.
Q. Where the mayor holds his court?
A. Yes.
Q. Where was Mayor McCarthy at that time?
A. I cannot tell you that.
Q. You say the police gave the fire department assistance and
protection?
A. I say they assisted, so far as I saw.
* * * * *
William J. Kennedy, _sworn with the uplifted hand_:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. What is your occupation?
A. Foreman of engine company No. 3.
Q. Did you occupy that position last July?
A. Yes.
Q. State what part you took in putting out the fire that occurred on
the night of the 21st--Saturday night?
A. It was eleven o'clock and twenty minutes when the alarm came first.
We started out the house, but we were stopped at the grain elevator.
But we got through that crowd, and got on to Penn street, when they
began firing at us or at our horses.
Q. How many shots were fired?
A. I cannot tell that. It was just firing here and there along the
street.
Q. With pistols and guns?
A. With all kinds of arms.
Q. How long was that kept up?
A. All night until daylight.
Q. Go on and tell us what occurred?
A. We turned on to Liberty street, and at Twenty-first and Liberty they
hit me with something, and surrounded the horses. Then we turned on to
Penn again, but they wouldn't let us move, so we went towards the river
and tried to go down to get up further, but they were waiting there.
They had some old muskets and carbines and other things, and if we just
moved the horses they would come. We changed to different places from
one block to another, but they wouldn't let us lay a line, and wouldn't
let us throw any water except private property was in danger. We didn't
throw any water until after the troops went out of the round-house in
the morning.
Q. Were you present when they went out of the round-house?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you at the round-house after they left?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it on fire?
A. Yes. They had to come out. The fire got under them.
Q. Under what part of the round-house?
A. I don't know what part of it, but they set it on fire from Liberty
street. They had a hose there, and were throwing water all night. They
ran the cars down and tried to set it on fire, but it was all right
until the fire got under them.
Q. You say the troops had hose, and kept the fire out until it got
under them and drove them out?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know of any oil that was run under them?
A. I don't know that. All I know is, that some liquor was there
burning.
Q. How soon did you get to the round-house, after the troops left?
A. As soon as we could.
Q. How extensive was the fire then in the round-house?
A. It was big, and there were lumber yards across the street all afire.
Q. Was the carpenter shop on fire?
A. I don't know whether the carpenter shop was or not.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Were any buildings attached to the round-house on fire, or buildings
near it?
A. Yes.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. How large was the crowd when the troops came out?
A. I don't know how large.
Q. What did the crowd do when the troops marched out?
A. They were taking a walk--nobody interfered with the troops.
Everybody tried to get out of their road.
Q. And get away?
A. Yes.
Q. In what direction did the crowd go?
A. I don't know.
Q. The crowd didn't attempt to attack the troops?
A. No.
Q. During the day--Sunday and Sunday night--were you interfered with by
the crowd in throwing water?
A. Yes--frequently.
Q. To what extent?
A. Different parties kept coming constantly, so that we couldn't do
anything. They said: "Don't you throw any water on the railroad
property, or we will blow the heads off of you." It was not just one
man, but they kept reminding you of it all the time.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. They allowed you to play on private property?
A. Yes; I turned a stream on the cars at Union depot, when I suppose
twenty revolvers were shot at me.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did you call on the police force for protection?
A. I would have had to call a good while before I would have got any. I
didn't see many of them.
Q. Did they offer any protection to you?
A. Not to me, they didn't.
Q. Did Officer Daniel Motts speak to you at any time, offering to
protect you?
A. He spoke to me several times during the night, but never offered me
any protection. There was no occasion to offer me any, as both the
chiefs were there.
Q. And he didn't offer you any protection?
A. No.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did he give you any protection?
A. Not that I know of.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did he tell you, if you would commence playing on a certain point,
that the police would protect you?
A. He didn't.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Did any police officer?
A. No.
By Mr. Means:
Q. In your examination, you have stated that you went to the
round-house as soon as you could, after the troops left?
A. Yes; and went into service.
Q. How long was it after the troops left until you got playing upon the
fire at the round-house?
A. I cannot tell you exactly, but it was very quick?
Q. Half an hour?
A. No; it was not ten minutes until we were throwing water.
Q. Then the fire had made considerable progress in the round-house?
A. Yes; and across the street in the lumber yards.
Q. Do you know, of your own personal knowledge, that the fire
department did call upon the mayor for protection?
A. I cannot say. I saw the mayor there in a buggy.
Q. He didn't offer you any protection?
A. Not that I know of.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Do you think, with the fire department, you could have cut the fire
and stopped it during Sunday, if you had had protection?
A. I don't know whether we could have stopped it, it was on fire in too
many different places; but I think we could have picked out twenty-five
men and saved Union depot from burning.
Q. Do you mean you could have prevented the mob from firing it?
A. Yes.
Q. With twenty-five policemen?
A. With twenty-five good men of any kind.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Do you mean that it could have been stopped at that time and place?
A. Yes.
Q. And that you could have prevented the spreading of the fire?
A. Yes; if I had had that number of determined men.
Q. Did you see those parties who set Union depot on fire?
A. No.
Q. Was there no effort made when they set the sheds on fire to tear the
sheds down and stop the fire?
A. Not that I saw--not by the police, that I saw. We did all we could.
We kept following up the fire.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Was there no effort made during the day, Sunday, to stop the
progress of those men in setting fire to the cars and the depot?
A. That I cannot say.
Q. You were not present when the mayor made a speech to the crowd?
A. No.
* * * * *
John M. Miller, _sworn with the uplifted hand_:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. On Second avenue.
Q. What was your connection with the fire department in July last?
A. I was an engineer.
Q. What time did you go to the scene of the fire?
A. About twenty minutes after eleven o'clock.
Q. Saturday night?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you interfered with by the crowd?
A. We were fired at and told to go slow, you sons of bitches, all the
way, but nobody struck us. I don't know whether they fired at us or
not, but our foreman, I believe, was struck in the back.
Q. Did they strike any of your horses?
A. That I cannot tell. I was behind the engine.
Q. Where did you commence work?
A. We were off with the engine about a square from the fire, and
commenced work first at Twenty-sixth street. I don't know where they
had the hose placed. They told us not to throw on the railroad
property, or they would cut our hose, and they tried to prevent me
putting on my suction hose. We had to talk to them, and tell them we
were not going to play on the railroad property before they would allow
us to make any attachment at all.
Q. How long did you remain at work playing on the fire?
A. We returned home at ten o'clock Monday morning, I think it was.
Q. During the day, Sunday, were you interfered with by the mob?
A. They spoke to us, and a drunken fellow told us, if we played on the
railroad property, that they would blow our heads off.
Q. Were you protected by the police?
A. The police was a disorganized body--no two of them were together, I
don't believe. I never saw over two together the whole day.
Q. Did you call on the police for protection?
A. I didn't.
Q. Did the police offer you any protection?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Did Officer Daniel Motts say anything to you at any time?
A. Daniel Motts and a man named Coulston came to us before the
round-house caught on fire, about one o'clock that night, and asked us
what we were standing there for, and not throwing any water. I said
that the mob wouldn't allow us, and they said, I believe, they would
protect us. I said, I am not the proper person, as the chief is here,
and as we have orders to stand here and wait further orders. But the
way they spoke to me, I thought it was in a joking way, because the
only protection they could offer wouldn't have amounted to anything. I
told them I was not the proper person, that the chief was there.
Q. Did they ask you to play upon any particular point of the fire, and
say they would protect you?
A. No; they didn't. The cars were burning above the round-house at the
time, but the round-house was not burning at the time.
Q. Did you see the troops come out?
A. No; but I saw them after they came out.
Q. How soon did you get up there after the troops went out?
A. In about twenty minutes or twenty-five minutes.
Q. Was the round-house on fire when you got there?
A. It was burning bad.
Q. Was it burning before they came out?
A. Yes; that is what chased them out. I understood afterwards that they
came out of the carpenter shop.
Q. Was the carpenter shop burned afterwards?
A. That I cannot say. We were ordered away below that again.
Q. What became of the crowd when the troops came out?
A. They ran pell mell, and fell over each other. The troops could have
marched down Liberty street and drove them. The mob were cowards when
daylight shown on them. They had plenty of guns, but not much
ammunition for them. They were drunk, and that was what gave courage to
the most of them.
Q. Those drunken men, when daylight came, what became of them?
A. They staggered off, and went to sleep or something. They had plenty
of liquor.
Q. How many were engaged in firing the cars during the day--Sunday?
A. Not over ten or twelve men. Some of them were boys fourteen or
fifteen years of age. The most conspicuous man was a man with one arm.
Q. Were you close?
A. I was; at Twenty-first and Liberty street.
Q. Did you follow down with your department?
A. When the fire broke out down below amongst the cars we were ordered
further down. We went then to Twelfth and Liberty streets, that is from
Twenty-first to Twelfth.
Q. Was any effort made by either the police or the militia or any
person to stop this gang who were firing the cars?
A. None at all. There were plenty of people outside in sympathy with
those who were setting fire, and who were handing drinks up to them,
and some women were carrying coffee, and handing it to them?
Q. What class of women?
A. They looked like Irish women.
Q. What classes of men were about that day who appeared to be in
sympathy with them?
A. It generally was the Irish. Most every person that spoke to us about
not playing on the fire was Irish, that is, had the brogue on the
tongue.
Q. Were they railroad men, or did they belong to any particular class
in the city. Mill men, or any particular class of people?
A. I didn't recognize any of them that I knew personally.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. You say they were handing coffee up to those people. It must have
been made in the vicinity of the fire?
A. Yes; or else carried some distance. It appeared to be hot coffee.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where was the mayor during the day Sunday?
A. I cannot say; I didn't see him at all.
By Mr. Engelbert:
Q. After the soldiers marched out the round-house, if they had torn up
the track, would it have prevented any further firing west?
A. Previous to the round-house being set on fire?
Q. Afterwards?
A. It would; but they would have followed on down.
Q. But couldn't the soldiers have checked them there?
A. Yes; I think the soldiers could have cleared the whole track after
daylight on Sunday, cleared the whole track.
Q. The soldiers or the mayor's posse?
A. I don't know about the mayor's posse. They didn't appear to be so
much afraid of the posse as of the guns.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. I understand you to say that no attempt was made by either the civil
authorities or the military authorities to stop the fire on Sunday, or
to clear the track?
A. There was no attempt at all.
Q. Of course, you cannot tell what would have been the result, if an
attempt had been made--it is a mere matter of opinion as to what would
have been the result?
A. I believe so; but that is my opinion. I feel certain that they
could.
Q. You spoke of the police force not being organized. What was the
organization of the fire department?
A. The organization of the fire department was perfect. All the men
were at their posts all the time, ready to do what they were ordered to
do.
Q. How many were at their posts?
A. All the men that were on the force. The force had been reduced, but
some of the men that had been put off were helping.
By Mr. Engelbert:
Q. You say those members of the department that had been put off didn't
refuse to assist you?
A. Not at all!
By Mr. Lindsey?
Q. How many men were discharged from the fire department?
A. Some twenty-two.
Q. How many of those men came back to your assistance?
A. Through the whole department I cannot say, but of our company I saw
a couple of them. Of course, they had their favorite companies. And
then there were plenty of volunteers of the old members of the
volunteer department.
Q. Who appoints the fire commissioners?
A. They are elected by city councils.
Q. They have control of the fire department?
A. Yes.
Q. State whether the fire commissioners are subject to the control of
any higher body?
A. I don't think they are. I think they are given full power.
Q. Do you know what the law is in regard to that?
A. I don't. I have never examined it.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. What appeared to be the disposition of the crowd surrounding that
fire--did they appear to be in sympathy with the rioters?
A. That I cannot say.
Q. Some of the crowd were gathered there out of curiosity?
A. I would have them all around the engine. It was a regular hum, just
like bees--everybody seemed to be talking.
Q. Was there any general expression against the soldiery?
A. I believe there was, after they fired on the mob. I believe some
classes of men had a feeling against the soldiers, but I believe the
better class of citizens had not.
Q. You say the soldiers could have cleared the tracks and dispersed the
mob, when they came out of the round-house?
A. They could--if they had opened with the Gatling guns, there would
not have been a soul in sight for fifteen squares.
Q. Do you know whether the officers of the soldiery in the round-house
had any communication with anybody outside, during the night?
A. I don't think they had, to my knowledge.
Q. None of them were passing back and forth, between the round-house
and outside?
A. That I cannot say. I was not close enough to it.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. The soldiers had no means of knowing that the crowd had become
dispersed, or weakened, or drunken?
A. I don't think they had. I think the soldiers thought the whole
community was against them. If they had known that they could have come
out, and drove the mob down, I think they would have done it.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Officer Coulston has testified, that the round-house was not on fire
where the troops came out--that he went through the building. Could he
have gone through those buildings soon after the troops evacuated them?
A. He couldn't. He might have gone into the carpenter shop, or the
paint shop, but the flames were coming out of all the windows of the
round-house. Nobody could have lived there.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Could a man have got on to the engines as they stood in the stalls?
A. He might, in one part by the carpenter shop, but I don't think he
could have lived in any part of it, on account of the heat.
* * * * *
Daniel J. Eckels, _sworn with the uplifted hand_:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. 135 Second avenue.
Q. Were you connected with the fire department in July last?
A. Yes.
Q. What position did you hold?
A. I was engineer of company No. 2.
Q. State when you arrived at the fire, and how long you remained there?
A. Probably between twelve and one o'clock on Sunday morning. We could
not go into service. We waited there on the street by the Independence
engine-house. We stayed at the fire until after the troops came out of
the round-house.
Q. During the day--Sunday?
A. Yes.
Q. And Sunday night?
A. Yes.
Q. Until Monday morning?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you assisted by the police force at any time?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Did you see any policemen about there?
A. I cannot say that I did; but I did hear that at one place where we
were working the mayor was around, but I did not see him.
Q. Did you see Mayor McCarthy at any time?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Was any attempt made during the entire day of Sunday to stop the men
who were engaged in the burning?
A. Not that I know of.
* * * * *
J. F. Rivers, _sworn with the uplifted hand_:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. On Mulberry street, above Twenty-fifth.
Q. What is your business?
A. I had been a detective in the employ of the city of Pittsburgh
previous to July 12.
Q. What position did you hold at the time of the riot?
A. I held no position; but I lived within three squares of the scene,
and consequently had considerable interest in the riot. I was away from
the city; but I came back on Friday evening. I heard that there was a
strike among the railroad men, and, as I knew a great many of them, I
was very much interested in their behalf. I went up to the upper
round-house on Saturday morning, and there I saw a great many railroad
men, and a good many outsiders, that I knew were attracted there for,
probably, the same reason I was. They were very orderly, and I saw no
trouble there. It did not look as though there was going to be any
trouble. I came down to the city and saw the troops at Union depot
towards noon, and went up to my home, and saw the troops up on the
hill. I paid no more attention to it until towards evening, when I
heard the troops had fired upon the crowd. Then I went up there. I was
trying to find my two boys. The crowd was then gathering to the number
of thousands, and the people were very much excited, and expressed
themselves that the troops ought to be cleaned out, and all such
language as that. I went away from there, and towards dark I went out
towards Twenty-fifth street, and saw the troops had been moved from the
Twenty-eighth street position to the round-house, or square-house. The
carpenter shop is on one side of Twenty-sixth street, and the
round-house and office of the assistant superintendent is on the left
hand side opposite. The round-house is a little back of the office, and
the outer circle of the round-house comes on the line of Liberty
street, and there is a railroad track in front of it belonging to the
Valley Railroad Company. The crowd was in front of there; the soldiers
were in the round-house and in the carpenter shop. The crowd was there,
and probably thirty men were jeering at the soldiers. I did not know
any of them; but I went in among the men and I said, "boys, if those
men come out you will have to go away, as you do not have any business
here." I said, "these men are strangers, and you ought to treat them
differently." They said, "we will have them out if we have got to roast
them out." I felt some interest in the Pennsylvania Railroad Company,
and in the interest of good behavior I come down the street, and tried
to find some railroad officers to communicate my belief that there
would be a fire and trouble. I tried to find some of the railroad
officers, but could not do it. It was then after dark--after night. I
went towards my home, and I met the crowd on Liberty street going to
Union depot. I went up to one man I knew, who was tried in court last
week, and I said "the railroad company has conceded to the demands of
their employés." I had understood something of that sort. He said "it
was too damned thin," and went into the depot, and a short time after
there was an alarm of fire. At the corner of Twenty-fifth and Penn
avenue the Independence apparatus was stopped by men pointing pistols,
and saying if they proceeded any further they would kill their horses.
I spoke to the parties that did that loud talking, and they said it did
not make any difference--that they had no right to go up and throw
water on the railroad property. I said: "These men are responding to a
call, and they must obey, and you should not interfere with them." I
then went away to see the extent of the fire. I went to Twenty-eighth
street, and between there and Twenty-ninth, on Liberty, I saw the
burning cars running down the grade towards the Twenty-eighth street
crossing. But a switch was turned wrong or something, and the cars ran
off the track. They set fire to what is known as the sand-house, and
that is the first building that caught fire, and from that the fire
communicated to the upper round-house, I think. The fire burned very
slow. It appeared to me to be started by people that wanted to plunder,
which they did, for they carried out great quantities of goods that day
and the next day. The fire burned very slow--I never saw a fire burn so
slow in my life. I did not see whether the fire department went into
service that night or not. Next morning I saw the troops as they came
up Liberty street on to Twenty-fifth, and marched out Penn avenue. I
did not see much of any mob at that time. Then the fire department went
into service. I saw no person particularly setting things on fire, but
I saw two men coming from under a car off the track, in front of the
round-house, just at Twenty-sixth street. The car was loaded with
liquor, and just shortly after they came out and went away the car
caught fire, and then the round-house and the shop and the offices and
all caught fire.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Before or after the troops came out?
A. A portion of it--the square shop that they came out of was set on
fire afterwards. The building was L shaped, and there was a fire in the
rear of it, and there might have been a fire--but I won't be
positive--but there might have been a fire in the L that ran towards
the road, but none in the L on Liberty street when they came out; and
they had made some efforts to protect themselves against fire, because
I discovered some leather hose, that the railroad company had in the
premises, after the troops came out. The fire then kept burning down
gradually on Liberty street down the railroad, and the people kept
carrying off the goods all day Sunday. Down at the Union
depot--previous to that catching fire--I was in there, and saw that the
parties had moved as many of the goods as they could, and I saw no
person trying to stop them. They set the depot master's office on fire,
and then a burning car was run down into the depot, and that fired it.
I saw the troops marching down Twenty-fifth street towards Penn, and
saw them march up Penn.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Can you tell us what portion of the round-house, or the buildings
attached to it, were on fire when they left?
A. I do not know, but there might have been a fire in the rear of the
round-house--the portion of it that is next to the main line might have
been afire--and as I said before, this L of the carpenter shop might
have been afire previous to the vacation, but I do not know it; but,
from my recollection of it, the fire burned so slow that there must
have been a fire in there before they got out, because when it caught
from the burning car on Liberty street, the whole building appeared to
be enveloped at once.
Q. Did you see the troops fired on as they went out?
A. I saw one man fire, I think, twice. He attempted to run into my
yard, and I kicked him out, and I said "if you want to fire on those
men go out and do it, but you cannot do it here." He ran out and shot
at them with a pistol. Somebody returned the fire, and he quit
following them any further.
Q. Did you know him?
A. No; I never saw him before. I know a great many men here; but I knew
very few men that took part in the riot.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. You were around through the crowd?
A. Yes.
Q. And could judge of the crowd?
A. The men I saw jeering the soldiers penned in there, I did not know
any of them, nor I do not think they knew me, because I think if they
had known I was an officer, or had been one, I think they would have
made it lively for me, because I have the idea that they would have
thought I was there in the line of my business. I did not know any of
them. But this man, Richardson, that was tried last week, I saw him and
spoke to him about half past nine o'clock on Saturday night, and told
him that the railroad company had conceded to the wishes of the men,
and he said that was too damned thin, and went on.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. In your experience as a detective in this city, you have gained an
extensive knowledge of the people?
A. Yes.
Q. And from the general appearance of that mob you think they were
strangers, and did not belong in the city.
A. Yes; that is, the ringleaders. I was at one time on the Pennsylvania
railroad, a number of years ago, and in consequence of that, I know a
great many railroad men, employés of the road, and I saw none of them
engaged in this riot. When I first went up there, in the morning, I saw
a great many I knew, railroad men, but they were all quiet and orderly.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Did you have any conversation with them as to the reasons or causes
that led to the strike?
A. Yes; their grievances were, as far as they told me, that they had
been required to put on double-headers, and the reduction in the number
of their men that they would lose so many men, as they called it, in a
crew.
Q. Did they express any intention of using violence?
A. Not that I heard. I did not hear a man say a word that would tend to
show he was going to use any violence. I remarked to four or five of
them standing together: "If the mayor sends his police here and orders
you fellows away from here, you have no business here on this property,
and you must go."
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. What day was that?
A. On Saturday morning, about ten o'clock.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did you hear any of those railroad men speak of a preconcerted
arrangement for a general strike through the country?
A. I never did.
Q. At that time?
A. No.
Q. Nor since?
A. No.
* * * * *
Michael Hannigan, _sworn with uplifted hand_:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. No. 45, Grant street.
Q. What was your business in July last.
A. I was acting foreman of engine company No. 2.
Q. What time did you visit the scene of the riot?
A. Between one and two o'clock on Sunday morning.
Q. At what point did you stop first?
A. We answered box No. 62, and then the chief gave us orders to stop at
Twenty-third and Penn, and not make any attachment until we got further
orders.
Q. How large was the crowd at that time?
A. A great many men were scattered along the street as we were going to
the box. The fire was down as far as Twenty-third street by that time.
By daylight it got warm at Twenty-third and Liberty, and the chief got
permission from the mob to lay a line of hose so that a foundry there
might not take fire. We afterwards went to Twenty-sixth street, but
could not get across there as the soldiers were firing across
Twenty-sixth street.
Q. What time was that?
A. An hour after we were at Twenty-third street.
Q. After daylight?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you visit the round-house after the troops left?
A. It was impossible for anybody to go there. The upper building was
completely burned when we went into service. It is a square building.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Attached to or in close proximity to the round-house?
A. Yes. The roof had fallen in when we laid the line of hose. That was
in ten minutes after the soldiers had left the round-house.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. How long before the round-house was consumed by fire?
A. I cannot tell you that.
Q. Did the soldiers march out in good order?
A. I did not see the soldiers except at a distance.
Q. Did you remain on duty during the day Sunday?
A. Yes; and up until Monday morning at ten o'clock.
Q. Had the fire stopped when you left?
A. Yes, We were on Washington street.
Q. What stopped the crowd from plundering and burning?
A. I do not know that.
Q. After they fired Union depot, did they fire any other property?
A. There was a depot fired on the west side.
Q. How far down towards the city did the crowd come?
A. It was down there on Seventh avenue.
Q. How large a crowd was on Seventh avenue?
A. From the Rush House down to Seventh avenue--ten thousand men--you
could hardly get through.
Q. Were there any police there to arrest the crowd?
A. I did not see any.
Q. Did you see the crowd when they dispersed from that point?
A. No.
Q. Were you assisted at any time during the fire by the police?
A. No.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Were you protected?
A. No.
Q. Did you ask for protection?
A. No; the mob had a cannon planted at Twenty-seventh street, pointed
right at the engine, and they said if you play on the railroad property
we will raise you. We did not want to be raised.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Who made those threats?
A. That I can not tell you.
Q. Was any effort made by the mob to set fire to private property, that
you saw?
A. I did not see any of that.
Q. On Sunday night they had finished all the railroad property?
A. I think the last they set afire was that depot on Grant street.
Q. What became of the mob after that time?
A. I do not know, but I heard several citizens express themselves that
they were getting tired of this work. We were then on Bedford avenue.
They said they were going too far with it.
Q. Citizens said that?
A. Yes.
Q. What citizens made those remarks?
A. I do not recollect.
Q. Where were the mob during Sunday night?
A. I did not see any of the mob at the time we went out. I saw a great
many people on the street. We had to go very slow. They were using all
kinds of threats.
Q. When you left, on Monday morning, was everything quiet?
A. Everything was quiet then.
Q. Where had these people gone?
A. I do not know.
Q. Did you see the mayor about at any time?
A. Once, at the corner of Twentieth and Liberty streets, standing
against a gas post.
Q. What time was that?
A. In the afternoon--I do not recollect the hour.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Do you know whether the round-house was on fire when the military
left it?
A. Yes; at least that building was.
Q. How long after the military left did you go to the round-house?
A. While I walked from the corner of Twenty-fourth up to Twenty-sixth
street.
* * * * *
Colonel D. L. Smith, _sworn with the uplifted hand_:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. In the city of Allegheny.
Q. Do you hold any official position?
A. I am one of the aldermen of that city.
Q. Where were you at the time of the riots in July last?
A. I was at my home in Allegheny city.
Q. What occurred there in regard to the riots, that you have any
knowledge of?
A. About half past five o'clock in the evening, on the day that the
soldiers fired in the crowd, my office boy came to my office and
reported to me in great excitement, that the soldiers had fired on and
killed a number of the citizens. I then went to the scene of the
trouble, and remained there until about eight o'clock in the evening.
Q. What time did you get there?
A. At six o'clock. The troops had just gone into the round-house as I
got there. I returned to my office after eight o'clock, and when the
cars were fired at eleven o'clock, I saw the light and heard the alarm,
and immediately went to the scene, and remained there until four
o'clock in the morning. I then returned home, and remained at home
until one o'clock, and then came to Pittsburgh again and remained until
nine o'clock.
Q. What did you observe?
A. One or two wounded men being carried from the ground. I observed a
disorganized mass of people standing in groups, numbering perhaps six
or eight hundred, discussing the fire and passing their comments on it.
Q. This crowd of people you saw there--of what class was it composed?
A. There were some few railroad employés, but the most of them I
recognized as mill hands from the different rolling-mills. I knew many
of them personally.
Q. A portion of them from your city?
A. Yes; attracted by excitement to the fire. Some remained there.
Q. What were those mill hands doing when you went there?
A. Discussing the question involved in the railroad strikes, and some
of them were using threats. One man remarked, if the firing went on,
that there wouldn't be a dollar's worth of railroad property left in
the county of Allegheny at nine o'clock the next morning. Quite a
number of persons I recognized as persons I knew to be workingmen from
other sections. I know a great many of the Pittsburgh workingmen.
Q. You say from other sections?
A. I judged them to be miners and mill hands, attracted here from
outlying counties--attracted by news of the riot; in fact, in
conversation with some, they informed me they had come from different
places.
Q. From communities within a short distance of the city?
A. Yes.
Q. Were that class of men taking part in the disturbance?
A. At that time there was no disturbance. It was very peaceful, except
the grumbling. But at eleven o'clock, I was on the railroad track, and
I noticed three men breaking into and taking the contents of a car.
Q. Did you know who those men were?
A. No; they appeared to be workingmen, and some of them appeared to be
familiar with handling cars from the manner in which they proceeded to
open the cars. I went down and remonstrated with them, and they treated
me very civilly--didn't seem to take as an insult my interference. I
remarked that the railroad company would not be the sufferer. They paid
no particular attention, and I told them, you men will certainly be
punished for this. I told them I was a magistrate, and had come in my
official capacity to try and quell the disturbance; but they paid no
attention. There was no riot at that time. They went peaceably about
it.
Q. Did they get the goods out?
A. Yes; they threw them out promiscuously. The greater number of goods
were carried away by girls about sixteen years of age and by boys up to
twenty years of age. The goods were carried away by residents of the
immediate neighborhood. I then went up to where they were setting fire
to the oil cars, and there were probably not more than eight or ten men
engaged in that.
Q. Who were they?
A. I do not know. They seemed to be workingmen from their garb. I knew
them to be workingmen, and several of them I knew were familiar with
operating railroads, from the fact that they knew how to open the
switches, and run the cars into position, and they handled the cars
with the experience of practical mechanics.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Do you mean they were railroad men?
A. Certainly; some of them. At this time probably twenty cars were on
fire, and there were not over one hundred and fifty persons altogether
on the railroad tracks.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. What hour was this?
A. Twelve o'clock on Saturday night. Just then a man came from the
crowd of rioters--there was a crowd collected in front of the
round-house for the purpose of fighting the militia--and he jumped on
to a flat car and drew a sword--he had a belt around him, but had no
uniform--and he immediately ordered them to stop burning the cars and
pillaging the trains, saying that they had come not to burn and
pillage, but to fight the military.
Q. Who was he?
A. He was evidently a leader, but I did not know him. He was from the
party that came from Birmingham. Immediately when he jumped on that
car, somebody hallooed "police," and in five minutes there was not a
man left on the railroad track. The cry of "police" cleared the whole
thing out, and any two police officers could have preserved the peace.
Q. You think that a small force of police there could have straightened
things up?
A. At no time more than twenty men were engaged in the burning.
Q. How long did you stay?
A. Until four o'clock in the morning.
Q. You say those carrying off the goods were mostly children?
A. They were mostly young--girls and boys. At one o'clock in the
morning I passed the police station on Penn street, in the immediate
vicinity, and the police officers were arresting every person passing
with goods and there was no resistance. They had perfect control. A mob
amounting to not more than five hundred persons was standing near, and
they had a cannon commanding the round-house, but the soldiers had
covered it with their arms, and had killed one or two of the rioters.
The mob engaged in fighting the soldiers were not engaged in the
burning and pillaging. I went among them. One of them called me by
name. I knew his face. He said, "Alderman, don't go down that way; they
will shoot you." But I said, "No," and passed on through them. I said
to him, "You had better go home," when he said that they had come for
the purpose of fighting the militia, and were going to fight them.
Q. What time was that?
A. About four o'clock. It was just breaking day.
Q. Now, this mob gathered around in the vicinity of the
round-house--what was that mob composed of?
A. I recognized that mob as composed nearly all of people who were
working men from the south side of the river.
Q. That is, Birmingham?
A. Yes; some few of them were citizens that I knew. And I would state
that some few were armed, but showed no disposition to violence except
that they had an antipathy to the soldiers that had fired on their
relatives. I mention this fact to show that there should be a
distinction between the rioters proper and the plunderers. They didn't
seem to be acting in concert. A posse of police of twenty men could
have protected all the property that night.
Q. Did you hear any body state that the rioters or the mob had
prevented the fire department from throwing water on the railroad
property?
A. I did not. But I have no doubt they would have prevented it, from
the disposition of the mob. I didn't see any person setting fire to the
Union depot. I took my stand at the elevator. I met one of the clerks
belonging to the company, and he told me that they had refused to let
them take their books out. I said, come back with me, and I will take
them out. So I went back and stationed myself at the elevator, to save
it, if I could, by my presence there, and by calling a _posse
comitatus_. But I could not get any person to serve. The sheds below
Union depot were then taking fire, and two or three men came, and
wanted to go into the elevator. I told them not to go in. At this time
not less than twenty thousand people were there--men, women, and
children--but there was no rioting, and there were not more than eight
or ten or a score of men engaged in spreading the fire at that time.
They seemed to be peaceable.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. You mean the men who were setting things on fire?
A. Yes; they went to it deliberately'.
Q. You spoke about raising a _posse comitatus_?
A. I tried to raise it. I called on a gentleman from Allegheny, named
Gray. I summoned him to my assistance, but he refused to act, but said
if I could get ten more he would do so. I afterwards saw some other
parties, but while they deprecated the burning, they said it was worth
their lives to interfere. I then went with Mr. Gray down to where the
men were running the burning cars, and tried to reason with them. At
that time probably twenty men were engaged in that, besides the persons
engaged in carrying the things off. And by that time they had gotten
into liquor, and were pretty well intoxicated. On Sunday afternoon I
also tried to raise a _posse comitatus_. I called on some citizens
that I knew, but they were afraid to do anything, alleging that the
military and police should do it.
Q. What reasons did they give?
A. That they did not want to jeopardize their lives.
Q. Was the elevator set on fire while you were there?
A. No; I left, and supposed the elevator was safe, and went down to
Seventh avenue, where the depot of the Pan Handle road was just being
set on fire. I remained there some time, and then went to Allegheny to
get my supper, and came back. While crossing the bridge, I noticed the
fire coming from the elevator. I remained in the vicinity of the fire
until between nine and ten o'clock that night, and at that time there
was no further spreading of the destruction. The citizens, in the
meantime, had organized a police, and there had, apparently, been a
number of arrests made.
Q. As soon as the police began making arrests, the citizens took the
matter into their own hands, and the destruction ceased?
A. Yes; and that is what convinced me that a posse of twenty policemen
could have prevented the destruction. But at any time during Saturday
night, if a police officer had gone into the crowd to arrest a man, the
mob would have interfered with him--I am satisfied of that.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. When you told those persons to stop setting fire, did they obey your
orders?
A. On Saturday night they paid no attention, but they didn't interfere
with me.
Q. You asserted your authority as far you could?
A. As far as I could, and they respected my authority when I asserted
it resolutely. Then they gave way. I went to Allegheny to try to summon
a _posse comitatus_, but I found it collected, and I then repaired
to the mayor's office, in Allegheny, and took part with them for the
protection of our city. In our city, I may say, that no destruction
occurred. The railroad men took possession of the railroad property
there. I think they took possession first on Thursday evening. Nothing
was destroyed. The railroad men--those I conversed with--said that they
had determined to protect the railroad property against any mob.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. What did they say was their object in taking possession of the
railroad property?
A. Well--my office seems to be a general receptacle for persons of
diverse opinions. Some of these railroad men came to me with their
complaints. I was told their grievances, and that their purpose was
merely the restoration of the ten per cent. reduction.
Q. Those were employés of what railroad?
A. The Pittsburgh, Port Wayne and Chicago road. They admitted their
actions were contrary to law, and that they might be amenable, but
still they asserted their assumed right to stop the running of trains
until their demands were complied with.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. You say they asserted their right to stop the trains?
A. An assumed right. They supposed they had such a right. Some of them
supposed, ignorantly, that they had such a right--a great many of them
honestly believed that.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Did they claim that they had any right to set themselves up against
the authorities?
A. No; at no time; as they construed the laws of the Commonwealth, they
did not want to set themselves up against them.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Do you know what the feeling was in this city when the strike broke
out?
A. I know that the people of the city of Pittsburgh almost universally
condemned the reduction of the salaries of the railroad men at that
time. The strikers knew that they had the sympathies of the people of
Allegheny county--of all classes--in their efforts to have a living
rate of wages restored to them, and thousands of people not engaged in
the strike, on that Saturday afternoon, in July last, were gathered in
the vicinity of the Pennsylvania railroad workshops, not for the
purpose of violating any law, but either from motives of sympathy with
the strikers or prompted by curiosity to witness the military. It may
be inferred, that at least one half of those people were women and
children, and these, without warning, were fired into and many of them
killed or wounded. Of course, this caused universal indignation and
condemnation, and was the occasion of all the subsequent troubles and
destruction. A pacific course pursued towards these men would have
avoided the catastrophe that followed. The first great blunder in
dealing with the strikers in Pittsburgh, was in the attempt to operate
the road by the use of a military force, instead of using the troops to
preserve order and to keep the peace.
Q. You say that the sympathies of the people of Pittsburgh were with
the strikers or with the railroad employés and against the reduction of
their wages. Do you mean as long as no overt act was committed? Or what
did they regard as an overt act?
A. They would have regarded as an overt act the destruction of
property.
Q. Did they regard the stopping of trains as an overt act?
A. I think that certain classes of people did not regard the stopping
of the trains an overt act, but they would have regarded the forcible
taking of men from the trains--men who were willing to work--or the
preventing them from working, as an overt act.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Will you tell us what you did in your own city--tell us how you
managed the trouble there?
A. The authorities of Allegheny managed the strikers differently--in a
different way from that pursued in Pittsburgh. Several days prior to
the burning in Pittsburgh, the strikers took possession of the railroad
tracks, and the workshops of the Pennsylvania company operating the
Pittsburgh, Port Wayne and Chicago railroad. They threw up
breast-works, and held armed possession of the railroad property, and
even took possession of, and regulated the running of passenger trains
and the United States mail trains. At all interviews, they insisted
that it was not their intention to destroy property, but to protect the
railroad property, and that they wouldn't commit any overt act in
violation of law, as they understood it. Many of them believed they
were not violating any law, and assumed that they had a right to
accomplish the object they had in view, by the method they then were
pursuing. The authorities and the citizens of Allegheny City knew that
they were dealing with a powerful, intelligent, and well organized body
of men, who were determined and resolute in their purposes. To have
attempted to force those men from their position, would have
precipitated the same troubles that culminated in Pittsburgh a few days
subsequently. So the citizens appealed to the better judgment of those
strikers, they reasoned with them, and instead of irritating them, or
attempting to force them, they permitted them to have their own way,
believing that the railroad officials and their employés, would, in a
few days, adjust all differences. This policy, under the circumstances,
proved to be a wise one, as when danger came, and when the mob were
burning and destroying in Pittsburgh, the strikers in Allegheny
actually removed all the rolling stock out of the way of danger, and
volunteered to assist the organized citizens in protecting the depots
and workshops, and all other railroad property in the city of
Allegheny. Had the same policy been pursued in Pittsburgh, there would
have been no destruction of property.
Q. You were in the army. What position in the army did you hold during
the late war?
A. In 1861--in May, 1861--1 enlisted as a soldier, and was elected
lieutenant of my company, and went out as a member of the Second
Virginia regiment, as lieutenant, and afterwards became captain of my
company.
Q. Was it a Union regiment?
A. Yes. We went to Wheeling to protect the people, and our services
were accepted by the people of West Virginia. On the 19th of February,
1862, I was appointed commissary assistant by the Secretary of War, and
that position I held until about the 1st day of September, 1862, when I
was assigned to duty as chief commissary of the Twelfth army corps.
About the 15th of March, 1863, I was assigned to duty as chief
commissary of the Fifth army corps, with the rank of lieutenant
colonel, on General Meade's staff.
Q. How long did you occupy that position?
A. Until I was mustered out of the service, or until the corps was
disbanded, in September, 1865. I remained in service until March, 1866.
Q. What business have you been engaged in since the war?
A. For the last eight years I have been an alderman of the city of
Allegheny. The year before that, 1 was a member of the Legislature.
Q. From the time you left the army until you were elected a member of
the Legislature what business were you engaged in?
A. 1 was following my occupation as a scrivener.
Q. Where did you reside before going into the army?
A. From the year 1836, until I went into the army, in this county.
Q. What business were you engaged in?
A. When I went into the army I was chief clerk in the county
commissioners' office of Allegheny county. Prior to that I was a clerk
in a store.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Something has been said about picketing the railroad track where the
riot occurred. Now, taking into consideration the number of cars around
there, how many troops would it have taken to reasonably picket the
track and the ground there in possession of the mob?
A. The ground in possession of the mob, from the round-house out to
Lawrenceville, I think could have been sufficiently picketed by one
hundred men on both sides. At no time were more than one hundred
persons on the ground from twelve o'clock that night until four o'clock
in the morning, from the round-house out to Two Mile run. I consider
that the movement of the military into the round-house, at the time,
was a good one, but they should have picketed the railroad, and all the
approaches to the round-house. To have retired on the bluff, above the
railroad tracks, would have been a military blunder, for if they were
not strong enough to protect themselves where the cars and buildings
afforded them shelter, they certainly could not have held a position on
the hill face, where they could have been attacked from the open fields
above them, and been within easy range of masked or rifle shots from
the houses fronting on Liberty street. No officer of any military
experience would have selected that hill face to bivouac his troops,
under the circumstances then existing, but the retreat of two regiments
of well armed and equipped soldiers, commanded by officers of undoubted
courage, and large military experience in the face of a disorganized
mob, was certainly a inexplicable blunder.
Q. You did not see the crowd before it was fired into and dispersed by
the military?
A. I did not. I only arrived there afterward.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Now in your judgment, as a military man, do you think that there was
any necessity for calling on the military to quell this riot?
A. I do not. I honestly believe that if the authorities of the county
or Allegheny, or the city of Pittsburgh, had summoned a sufficient
_posse comitatus_, they could have preserved the peace. They might
not have been able to run the railroad cars, but the peace could have
been preserved without calling the military.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. From your observations during this disturbance, what opinion have
you of the conduct of the officers and those in charge of the military?
A. I was not brought in contact with them, except with Colonel Gray, of
one of our regiments, after the firing. I went to where he had
bivouacked on the railroad track, and he had one hundred and twenty men
with him at the time. He said he was there for the purpose of obeying
orders, and that his men would stay by him. He had no orders at that
time. I asked him particularly whether he had any orders, and he said
he had none. I asked him whether he thought he could preserve the
peace, and he said he could. I think he said that the firing on the
people was a mistake, and was done without orders, but if I had been
there I would have ordered the mob to disperse, and then fired on them
with blank cartridges.
Q. From your knowledge of these men as soldiers during the war, do you
think they were competent or incompetent men?
A. I know General Pearson well. I knew him in the army, and I know what
his military record was in the army, and there is no young officer in
the United States service who has a prouder record as a brave, a
careful, and discreet soldier. He served in our own corps, and I had
daily opportunity of knowing what his military services and military
abilities were, and his record in the army was certainty vary
creditable to him. I also knew General Brinton in our corps, and I know
that his record is equally good.
By Mr. Means:
Q. They were good soldiers, ready to obey orders at all times?
A. Yes; and had those two officers had the management of this affair,
without being amenable to superiors, much of the destruction would have
been avoided.
Q. You mean Generals Pearson and Brinton?
A. Yes; they had, to my certain knowledge, years of experience in the
army--active experience as soldiers.
Adjourned.