LORD RUSSELL--This is tacking of two treasons together; here is
one in November by one witness, and then you bring in another
with a discourse of my lord Howard, and he says the discourse
passed for pleasure.
The Lord Chief-Justice and Jeffreys point out that it has been settled
that the two witnesses required in treason may be witnesses to different
acts, and that if Lord Russell admits the facts his counsel may be heard
on the point of law.
LORD CHIEF-JUSTICE--My lord, to hear your counsel concerning
this fact, that we cannot do, it was never done, nor will be
done. If your lordship doubts whether this fact is treason or
not, and desires your counsel may be heard to that, I will do
it.
SOLICITOR-GENERAL--Will your lordship please to call any
witness to the matter of fact?
LORD RUSSELL--It is very hard a man must lose his life upon
hearsay. Colonel Rumsey says he brought a message which I will
swear I never heard nor knew of. He does not say he spake to
me, or I gave him any answer. Mr. Sheppard remembers no such
thing; he was gone to and again. Here is but one witness, and
seven months ago.
ATTORNEY-GENERAL--My lord, if there is anything that is law,
you shall have it
LORD RUSSELL--My lord, colonel Rumsey, the other day before the
king [the information of Rumsey is signed by the Duke of
Abermarle and Sir Leoline Jenkins, Secretary of State] could
not say that I heard it, I was in the room, but I came in late,
they had been there a good while; I did not stay above a
quarter of an hour tasting sherry with Mr. Sheppard.
Here some of the judges desired that 25 Edw. III. c. 2 should be read,
which was done. The material parts of it declare 'that whereas divers
opinions have been before this time, in what case treason shall be said,
and in what not ... when a man doth compass or imagine the death of our
lord the king ... or if a man do levy war against our lord the king in
his realm, or be adherent to the king's enemies in his realm, giving to
them aid and comfort in the realm, or elsewhere, and thereof be
provable attainted of open deed by people of their condition,' it is
treason. On this the point of law is re-discussed with the same result
as before.
LORD RUSSELL--I do not know how to answer it. The points
methinks must be quite otherwise, that there should be two
witnesses to one thing at the same time.
ATTORNEY-GENERAL--Your lordship remembers, in my lord
Stafford's case, there was but one witness to one act in
England, and another to another in France.
LORD RUSSELL--It was to the same point.
ATTORNEY-GENERAL--To the general point, the lopping point.
LORD RUSSELL--I can prove I was out of town when one of these
meetings was; but Mr. Sheppard cannot recollect the day, for I
was out of town all that time. I never was but once at Mr.
Sheppard's and there was nothing undertaken of viewing the
guards while I was there. Col. Rumsey, can you swear
positively, that I heard the message, and gave any answer to
it?
LORD CHIEF-JUSTICE (to Col. Rumsey)--Sir, did my lord Russell
hear you when you delivered the message to the company? Were
they at the table, or where were they?
COLONEL RUMSEY--When I came in they were standing at the
fireside; but they all came from the fireside to hear what I
said.
LORD RUSSELL--Col. Rumsey was there when I came in.
COLONEL RUMSEY--No, my lord. The duke of Monmouth and my lord
Russell went away together; and my lord Grey, and sir Thomas
Armstrong.
LORD RUSSELL--The duke of Monmouth and I came together, and you
were standing at the chimney when I came in; you were there
before me. My lord Howard hath made a long narrative here of
what he knew. I do not know when he made it, or when he did
recollect anything; 'tis but very lately, that he did declare
and protest to several people, that he knew nothing against me,
nor of any Plot I could in the least be questioned for.
LORD CHIEF-JUSTICE--If you will have any witnesses called to
that, you shall, my lord.
LORD RUSSELL--My lord Anglesey, and Mr. Edward Howard.
My lord Anglesey stood up.
LORD CHIEF-JUSTICE--My lord Russell, what do you ask my lord
Anglesey?
LORD RUSSELL--To declare what my lord Howard told him about me,
since I was confined.
LORD ANGLESEY--My lord, I chanced to be in town the last week;
and hearing my lord of Bedford was in some distress and trouble
concerning the affliction of his son, I went to give him a
visit, being my old acquaintance, of some 53 years' standing, I
believe; for my lord and I were bred together at Maudlin
College in Oxon; I had not been there but a very little while,
and was ready to go away again, after I had done the good
office I came about; but my lord Howard came in, I don't know
whether he be here.
LORD HOWARD--Yes, here I am to serve your lordship.
LORD ANGLESEY--And sat down on the other side of my lord of
Bedford, and he began to comfort my lord; and the arguments he
used for his comfort, were, my lord, you are happy in having a
wise son, and a worthy person, one that can never sure be in
such a Plot as this, or suspected for it, and that may give
your lordship reason to expect a very good issue concerning
him. I know nothing against him, or any body else, of such a
barbarous design, and therefore your lordship may be comforted
in it. I did not hear this only from my lord Howard's mouth,
but at my own home on the Monday after, for I used to go to
Totteridge for fresh air; I went down on Saturday, this
happened to be on Friday (my lord being here, I am glad, for he
cannot forget this discourse); and when I came to town on
Monday I understood that my lord Howard upon that very Sunday
had been church with my lady Chaworth. My lady has a chaplain
it seems that preaches there and does the offices of the
church; but my lady came to me in the evening. This I have from
my lady----
LORD CHIEF-JUSTICE--My lord, what you have from my lady is no
kind of evidence at all.
LORD ANGLESEY--I don't know what my lord is, I am acquainted
with none of the evidence, nor what hath been done; But my lady
Chaworth came to me, and acquainted me there was some
suspicion----
JEFFREYS--I don't think it fit for me to interrupt a person of
your honour, my lord, but your lordship knows in what place we
stand here: What you can say of anything you heard of my lord
Howard, we are willing to hear, but the other is not evidence.
As the court will not let us offer hearsays, so neither must we
that are for the king permit it.
LORD ANGLESEY--I have told you what happened in my hearing.
_Mr. Howard_ was then called, and after describing steps he took to
prevail on Lord Howard to come over to the King's side, when 'I
sometimes found my lord very forward and sometimes softened him'; and
continuing--
LORD CHIEF-JUSTICE--Pray apply yourself to the matter you are
called for.
MR. HOWARD--This it may be is to the matter, when you have
heard me: for I think I know where I am, and what I am to say.
LORD CHIEF-JUSTICE--We must desire you not to go on thus.
MR. HOWARD--I must satisfy the world, as well as I can, as to
myself, and my family, and pray do not interrupt me. After
this, my lord, there never passed a day for almost----
LORD CHIEF-JUSTICE--Pray speak to this matter.
HOWARD--Sir, I am coming to it.
LORD CHIEF-JUSTICE--Pray, Sir, be directed by the Court.
HOWARD--Then now, sir, I will come to the thing. Upon this
ground I had of my lord's kindness, I applied myself to my lord
in this present issue, on the breaking out of this Plot. My
lord, I thought certainly, as near as I could discern him (for
he took it upon his honour, his faith, and as much as if he had
taken an oath before a magistrate), that he knew nothing of any
man concerned in this business, and particularly of my lord
Russell, whom he vindicated with all the honour in the world.
My lord, it is true, was afraid of his own person, and as a
friend and a relation I concealed him in my own house, and I
did not think it was for such a conspiracy, but I thought he
was unwilling to go to the Tower for nothing again;[23] so
that if my lord has the same soul on Monday, that he had on
Sunday, this cannot be true, that he swears against my lord
Russell.