Mr. LAWSON. No, sir.
Mr. STERN. Reflecting any recent trip to the Dallas area?
Mr. LAWSON. That is correct.
Mr. STERN. Did anything else transpire before you left for Dallas as
far as advance preparation?
Mr. LAWSON. I picked up paraphernalia that we use, sometimes more than
other times depending on the type of trip it is. If there is to be a
motorcade as there is in this case, we usually get car numbers for
the windows and some identification pins for people who will not have
identification supplied by a local committee, and other paraphernalia
of this type, and I obtained those and took them with me.
Mr. STERN. Did anything else happen before you left for Dallas?
Mr. LAWSON. I called the Dallas office, the agent in charge was not in,
and talked to another agent, told him that I was coming down with other
agents on the Texas trip and would be dropped off at approximately 7:30
on the evening, Tuesday evening, of the next week, and----
Mr. STERN. What was the date?
Mr. LAWSON. I believe that is the 12th of November. That Mr. Puterbaugh
and Chief Warrant Officer Bales from the Communications Agency, White
House, would be accompanying me, and would they make arrangements to
please have us met at the airport and for rooms. And then dictated a
confirming memo before I left on the eighth.
Representative FORD. Did you have any other contacts with PRS other
than this one?
Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. STERN. You then went to Dallas on November 12?
Mr. LAWSON. That is correct.
Mr. STERN. What did you do in Dallas from the time of your arrival in
connection with trying to learn about people who might be potentially
dangerous to the President?
Mr. LAWSON. I was aware of the so-called Stevenson incident and so I
didn't have to be told that there.
Mr. STERN. How did you become aware of that?
Mr. LAWSON. I had read it in the paper, and so without making inquiries
I was aware of that when I went there.
Mr. STERN. You received no specific advice about that from PRS?
Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; I was aware of this fact. And then of course
it was after I arrived there people were talking about it also.
And although to my knowledge none of the people involved in that
particular incident had threatened the President or were known to us as
threatening the President, I asked Agent Howlett if he would view some
films of this incident that I understood one of the local TV stations
had.
I was informed of this by a local executive of the local paper who was
on the host committee, that they had such films. And Agent Howlett did
view these and had some still shots made of these individuals, although
we still did not know that they were against President Kennedy or might
harm him in any way. This was an extra on my part. I had asked Agent
Howlett if he had any contact with any individuals, informants in the
area that he might have, that the office might have about rightwing
elements and what they might do, and was told that prior to my arrival
in Dallas they had received some information on some rightwing
activity, and that an investigation had been made, and that he also had
talked to an informant or two I believe. But to their knowledge there
was nothing in the radical-type rightwing movement so-called in the
Dallas area that they knew of that was going to harm President Kennedy.
Mr. STERN. Did anything else occur? Did you have any discussions of
this problem with the local police?
Mr. LAWSON. We talked with the local police on many occasions as to
what would happen if there were demonstrations, pickets and so forth,
if they knew of any activity, and I believe S. A. Howlett from the
Dallas office did the same thing. The papers, the newspapers in Dallas
had a few articles on how watchful the police were going to be of the
crowd, with particular emphasis on disturbances or pickets, and some
of the local committee, host committee, as well as some of the local
political groups in the area were worried that perhaps the police
would be overzealous in controlling picketing or disturbances, and
asked me if I could find out just what the police were planning to do
in this event, that there were some wild rumors as to just what the
police were going to do. And because we like to have our local Agents
who have to work with the police in these areas maintain the liaison I
asked Mr. Sorrels if he would contact the chief of police and find out
exactly what they planned to do in relation to picketing, and discussed
the new ordinance that had been passed on the Monday, November 18 I
believe it is, prior to the President's visit. And we were told that
the police would accept peaceful picketing, but that the new ordinance
was strictly to give them some power to act if pickets or individuals
were interfering with lawful assembled groups, if they were trying to
make noise to drown out people who were bona fide speakers at lawful
groups, or if they were trying to interfere with any person entering or
departing a lawful assembly.
Mr. STERN. Did anything occur in connection with a circular that was
being circulated at the time?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes sir; I learned of a circular which had been distributed
in various parts of the city, blue in color with President Kennedy's
picture on it, and a list of grievances against him called treasonist
to the United States. I was given a copy of the circular in the
police chief's office, and requested Mr. Sorrels, our local agent
in charge--he had received a copy of this circular, and I asked him
to check with the district attorney's office, the Federal district
attorney, to see if it was against the Federal law. At quick reading
myself it didn't look like it was a violation of Federal law but I was
in no position to judge it, and I could see no direct threat.
Mr. DULLES. What Federal law did you have in mind then?
Mr. LAWSON. Under our jurisdiction, sir, of protection of the President
and investigation of letters or other threats in connection to the
President.
Mr. DULLES. This circular that you referred to is this the
advertisement in the papers?
Mr. LAWSON. No.
Mr. DULLES. Was this something different?
Mr. LAWSON. I never saw the advertisement in the paper the morning of
the 22d, and the first knowledge I had of that particular advertisement
was after I had returned from Dallas.
(Discussion off the record.)
Representative FORD. What page?
Mr. STERN. Exhibit 4 to the attachment of exhibits.
Mr. Lawson, I show you a one-page document marked "Commission Exhibit
No. 770" for identification with two photographs of President Kennedy,
and the title "Wanted for Treason." Is this a copy, a photograph of the
circular you have been describing?
Mr. LAWSON. It is, sir.
Mr. STERN. May it be admitted?
Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.
(Commission Exhibit No. 770 was received in evidence.)
Mr. STERN. The newspaper advertisement was a series of questions
addressed to President Kennedy asking why he had done certain things.
Mr. DULLES. I remember seeing it. Have you any idea as to the number of
these circulars that were distributed, any estimate?
Mr. LAWSON. No sir; I have no idea how many were put out. They appeared
in certain sections of the city I was told. The police told me they had
no idea who had put them out or when they had been put out, and Mr.
Sorrels said that some had been brought over to his office by the FBI,
which is how he had known about it, and that neither he nor they knew
the source of them.
Mr. DULLES. And nobody was apprehended or seen in the act of
circulating these.
Mr. LAWSON. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. DULLES. By any authority as far as you know?
Mr. LAWSON. That is right.
Mr. STERN. In respect to questions like what steps are taken to assure
the security of the President on the trip and how to work out liaison
arrangements with local Federal and municipal authorities, what is your
understanding of the division of responsibility between yourself as the
advance agent and the head of the local Secret Service office?
Mr. LAWSON. The advance agent who goes out from Washington is
responsible for the overall stop, for making the advance arrangements,
and on the day of the movement would have authority over the other
agents at the stop already or the agents accompanying the President,
and of course the agent in charge of the detail coming from Washington
would also have authority naturally over the agents.
However, he is just arriving in the city probably for the first time,
and the advance agent would have certain knowledge about certain events
and would have more authority than he does in certain respects or he
would ask his advice. So that there is a boss over the agents which
would be the advance agent and also the gentleman in charge of the
detail coming from Washington. The local agent in charge of the local
office assists the advance agent in all of his arrangements in the
territory that is to be visited, and the local agent in charge conducts
such investigations to assist the advance agent, and the local agent in
charge would be in charge of any liaison with local officials, local
police officials.
Mr. STERN. Insofar as the concern is for persons who might be dangerous
or threatening to the President, the agent in charge of the Dallas
office would be responsible for liaison arrangements with local
authorities but you ultimately would be responsible as the delegate
of the head of the White House detail, for decisions as to what steps
should be taken?
Mr. LAWSON. That is correct.
Mr. DULLES. What police powers, if any, can you exercise in that
situation in a sovereign State?
Mr. LAWSON. I believe the actual police powers as such would only be
in the event of actual knowledge of a threat on the President's life,
anything that we have jurisdiction of. If we hear of an oral threat
or see a written threat on the life of the President or see someone
attempt to take his life, this is our jurisdiction, and we would be
able to act as such.
Mr. DULLES. You could effect an arrest.
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; however, anything which would fall under the
jurisdiction of the local police such as firearms laws or picketing
laws or disturbances or anything like that we have to depend upon the
local police to use their jurisdiction.
Mr. McCLOY. Suppose the President is shot and you apprehend the
murderer. Can you arrest him and put him into custody?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; I could arrest him for the shooting of the
President, but it is my understanding actually for the murder, no, but
because he tried to take the life of the President I could.
Mr. McCLOY. I understand there may be some question, there is a gap in
the law there that it fits no Federal crime.
Mr. LAWSON. I will have to refer to counsel here as to just where it
stops, when it becomes murder actually where we have no jurisdiction,
and an attempt on the life of the President.
Mr. DULLES. Let's take a less-clear case. If you suspected Mr. X was
a man who was going to interfere with the President, although he had
committed no overt act, could you move in then or would you call upon
the local police?
Mr. LAWSON. If he was a suspect, sir, and we had a belief that he might
try to harm the President while he was in Dallas, I would try to assign
a Secret Service agent in conjunction with local police authorities,
to watch him. If it was a function where it was by invitation only or
there was some kind of control as to how the people got in, you would
make sure that he did not get in because you were watchful of the
ticketholders, et cetera.
However the function was to be handled; if it was a ball park where
anyone could buy a ticket to go in, then we would just have to have the
man watched, or perhaps the local police themselves somehow could keep
him from going to that ball park. But I as an agent could not.
Mr. DULLES. Even if the President were in attendance in the ball park?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; unless there was some reason that I could have
him arrested, I would not be able to do so. But I would have him
watched if I knew that there might be a threat.
Mr. DULLES. Am I asking questions that should go to counsel?
Mr. SMITH. I don't have any disagreement with what Agent Lawson has
said so far.
Mr. DULLES. Is there not some confusion of jurisdiction though here?
Mr. McCLOY. Isn't the panel studying this?
Mr. STERN. We are.
Mr. McCLOY. That is what I thought. The panel is working on the law.
Mr. DULLES. You are working on the law?
Mr. STERN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. You have got all the evidence that you want?
Mr. STERN. Yes; and there is a large area where Federal jurisdiction
does not exist except on some strained theory of conspiracy. There is
no substantive Federal jurisdiction with respect to great areas.
Mr. LAWSON. Might I add one thing please. The White House detail agents
are supposed to protect the life of the President wherever he is.
If there is a shot from the crowd or something happens, whether the
President is hit or not, get him away, get him out, and still protect
him. However, if you were riding on a car and actually saw someone do
something, and you were able to get to that individual, you would then
hold that person. But a White House detail agent would not drop the
President and then go look for someone who might have tried to harm him
at the time that he is there. That is not our function.
Mr. STERN. Turning now to the question of the motorcade route, Mr.
Lawson, what can you tell us about how that was selected?
Mr. LAWSON. On November 8 when Mr. Kellerman was giving me some of the
information on the proposed trip to Dallas, all of the advance agents
for the respective stops were given the current itinerary as prepared
by the White House staff for their stops, and for the Dallas stop there
was a 45 minute time lapse from the time the President landed at the
airport until the time that he attended the luncheon, and at the time
that I left Washington, it had not been decided whether he would attend
this luncheon at the Trade Mart where it later was planned to have it,
or at the Women's Building on the Fair Grounds. And this figured a
great deal in the parade route, the 45 minutes.
Mr. STERN. The 45 minute time interval?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. Was established for you by the White House?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. And were you specifically instructed to prepare a parade
route or was this your reaction to the time lag?
Mr. LAWSON. This is my function. I wasn't specifically asked to, but
this would be the function of the advance agent.
Mr. STERN. Were you instructed that there would be a motorcade?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. And that is what this 45 minutes was for?
Mr. LAWSON. That is correct.
Mr. STERN. How was the actual route determined then once the Trade Mart
had been selected as the site for the luncheon?
Mr. LAWSON. Various routes were under consideration. We could have
gone from the airport direct to the Trade Mart the way that we should
have returned, the 4-mile route returning from the Trade Mart to the
airport, or we could have taken a city street-type route all the
way downtown and all the way back, or we could have taken a freeway
downtown and a freeway back.
But the route that was chosen was chosen because it was the consensus
of opinion that it was probably the best route under the circumstances.
It allowed us 45 minutes to go from the airport to the Trade Mart at
the speed that I figured the President would go from past experience
with him in advances, and as a regular working agent riding in a
followup car.
It allowed us to go downtown, which was wanted back in Washington, D.C.
It afforded us wide streets most of the way, because of the buses that
were in the motorcade. It afforded us a chance to have alternative
routes if something happened on the motorcade route. It was the type
of suburban area a good part of the way where the crowds would be able
to be controlled for a great distance, and we figured that the largest
crowds would be downtown, which they were, and that the wide streets
that we would use downtown would be of sufficient width to keep the
public out of our way. Prime consideration in a motorcade is to make
sure the President isn't stopped unless he plans it himself. You must
have room to maneuver, alternative routes to turn off from, room for
buses and so forth, and particularly room to keep the public out of the
street.
Mr. STERN. What was the extent of your review of the parade route with
the local police?
Mr. LAWSON. With the local police I went over the entire route on one
occasion, went to the various stops at other times and so actually did
parts of the route at that time, the part of the route which would be
near the stop like the airport and the Trade Mart. But the actual route
I went over with two police officers from the Dallas Police Department.
Mr. McCLOY. By went over you mean you actually drove along the entire
route?
Mr. LAWSON. We drove it sir, with them taking notes, and them making
suggestions and Mr. Sorrels and I making suggestions.
Mr. STERN. To what extent did they actually participate in the decision
that this be the route?
Mr. LAWSON. They were asked their advice on possible routes that you
could go to the Trade Mart.