Mr. FRITZ. He called me back then in a few minutes and he told me he
couldn't get the chief and told me to leave him where he was. I don't
think that transferring him at night would have been any safer than
transferring, may I say this?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. Any safer than transferring him during the day. I have
always felt that that was Ruby who made that call, I may be wrong, but
he was out late that night and I have always felt he might have made
that call, if two or three of those officers had started out with him
they may have had the same trouble they had the next morning.
I don't know whether we had been transferring him ourselves, I don't
know that we would have used this same method but we certainly would
have used security of some kind.
Mr. BALL. Now weren't you transferring him?
Mr. FRITZ. Sir, yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What do you mean if we were transferring him ourselves?
Mr. FRITZ. I mean transferring like I was told to transfer him.
Mr. BALL. I beg your pardon?
Mr. FRITZ. I was transferring him like the chief told me to transfer
him.
Mr. BALL. How would you have transferred him?
Mr. FRITZ. I did do one thing here, I should tell you about. When the
chief came back and asked me if I was ready to transfer him, I told him
I had already complained to the chief about the big cameras set up in
the jail office and I was afraid we couldn't get out of the jail with
him with all those cameras and all those people in the jail office.
So when the chief came back he asked if we were ready to transfer and I
said, "We are ready if the security is ready," and he said, "It is all
set up." He said, "The people are across the street, and the newsmen
are all well back in the garage," and he said "It is all set."
And at that time he told me, he said, "We have got the money wagon up
there to transfer him in," and I said, "Well, I don't like the idea,
chief, of transferring him in a money wagon." We, of course, didn't
know the driver, nor who he was, nor anything about the money wagon,
and he said, "Well, that is all right. Transfer him in your car like
you want to, and we will use the money wagon for a decoy, and I will
have a squad to lead it up to the central expressway and across to the
left on Elm Street and the money wagon can turn down Elm Street and you
can turn down Main Street, when you get to Main Street, going to the
county jail," and he told me he and Chief Stevenson would meet me at
the county jail, that is when we started out.
Mr. BALL. How would you have done it if you were going to do it?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, I hesitate to say because it didn't work good this
way. If I had done it like I would do it or usually do it or something
and it hadn't worked I would be just in the same shape you know, and
it would be just as bad, so I don't like to be critical of something
because it turned out real bad.
You can kind of understand my--I know that our chief didn't know
anything was going to happen or he surely wouldn't have told me to
transfer it that way.
Mr. BALL. How would you have done it?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, we transferred Ruby the next day at about the same
time, and I had two of the officers from my office to pick me up away
from the office. We drove by the county jail, saw that the driveway was
open. We had about the same threats on him that we did with Oswald.
We saw that the driveway was open. I went back to the bus station and
I called one of my officers upstairs, gave him the names of two other
officers, told him to get those two officers and not tell anyone even
in the office where they were going, mark Ruby transferred temporarily,
which means coming to the office or going for some fingerprints or
anything, mark him transferred temporarily, bring him down to the jail
elevator at the bottom of the jail, put two of them to stay in the jail
elevator with him. For the other one to come to the outside door and
when he saw our car flush with the door, bring that man right through
those cameras and put him in the back seat, and they did, they shot him
right through those people and they didn't even get pictures and we had
him lie down on the back seat and two officers lean back over him and
we drove him straight up that same street, turned to the left down Main
Street, ran him into the jail entrance, didn't even tell the jailer we
were coming and put him in the jail. It worked all right.
But now if it hadn't worked, you know, I don't want to be saying that
I know more about transferring than someone else, because this could
happen to me. I could see if it happened to Ruby, I would have had all
the blame.
Mr. BALL. Now, if on that morning at 11:15 you planned to transfer him,
didn't you, according to the chief's orders?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. And you were through questioning him, weren't you?
Mr. FRITZ. Sir?
Mr. BALL. You were all through questioning him?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; we had everything that we could do at that time. I
would have talked to him later in the county jail but we didn't need to
hold the man any longer.
Mr. BALL. Had he been handcuffed?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; and I told--he was already handcuffed, and I told
one of the officers to handcuff his left hand to Oswald's right hand,
and to keep him right with him.
Mr. BALL. That was Leavelle?
Mr. FRITZ. Leavelle, yes, sir. He first started the other hand on the
other side, and I told Officer Graves to get on the other side and
Montgomery to follow him, and I would go down and an officer by the
name of Swain who works across the hall from us came over and offered
to help us, he went down the jail elevator and he went out ahead of me
and I went out in back of him and I was approaching our car to open the
back door to put him in, they were having a terrible time to get the
car in through the people--they were crowding all over the car--and I
heard the shot and I turned just in time to see the officers push Ruby
to the pavement.
Mr. BALL. When you came out of the jail door were the lights on?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; the lights were on. I don't believe they were on
as we came to the door, but they came out immediately as we were coming
out of the door, and I asked one of the officers, two of them answered
me if everything was secure and they said everything was all right. So
we came out.
Mr. BALL. What about the lights?
Mr. FRITZ. The lights were almost blinding.
Mr. BALL. Did you see the people in the crowd?
Mr. FRITZ. I could see the people but I could hardly tell who they
were, because of the lights. I have been wearing glasses this year and
with glasses those lights don't help you facing a bright light like
that, the lights were glaring.
Mr. BALL. How far ahead of Ruby were you?
Mr. FRITZ. Well. I thought they were right behind me almost but I
noticed from the picture they were a little further back than I
actually thought they were, probably where Mr. Baker is to this
gentleman. I believe maybe a little bit farther than that, maybe
about----
Mr. BALL. How far behind Oswald were you, how far behind Oswald. Oswald
was behind you?
Mr. FRITZ. Behind me.
Mr. BALL. How many feet would you say?
Mr. FRITZ. In feet I would say probably 8 feet.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever know of Jack Ruby?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I never did know him. I never knew him at all. Some
of the officers knew him. But I never knew him.
Mr. BALL. Were there any flashbulbs or were they just steady beams of
light?
Mr. FRITZ. I didn't see any flashing lights. These were steady blinding
lights that I saw. That I couldn't see, you might say.
Mr. DULLES. These were television cameras?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. BALL. Did you hear of Warren Reynolds?
Mr. FRITZ. Warren Reynolds?
Mr. BALL. Who was shot sometime afterwards?
Mr. FRITZ. Used car lot man?
Mr. BALL. Used car lot?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I talked to him. He was shot through the head.
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. I didn't talk to him very long because I didn't have to
talk to him long or I didn't have to talk to him very long but he told
me two or three different stories and I could tell he was a sick man
and he had no doubt brain damage from that bullet and he is apt to say
anything.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me that--he told me two or three stories, one story
he told me when they first brought him into me, for me to talk to him,
he told me that he saw this Ruby coming down there and he told him--he
said he followed him up and saw which way he went.
Mr. BALL. Ruby?
Mr. FRITZ. Saw Oswald.
Mr. BALL. Oswald?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, Oswald, and I questioned him further and I asked him,
how far, how close was the closest you were ever to him, how far were
you from him? He said, well, from that car lot across the street there.
Well, of course, if he had been at a car lot across the street it would
be difficult to follow him on the sidewalk. It would be quite difficult
so I talked to him for just a short time and I didn't bother with him
any more.
I already had some history on him because the other bureau, the forgery
bureau had been handling him and they had already told me a lot about
him. They discounted anything that he told.
Mr. BALL. Did you find out who shot him and why he was shot?
Mr. FRITZ. This man on the car lot?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. They think it might have been over a car deal but they are
not positive and I don't know that he will ever tell them.
Mr. BALL. Have you ever discovered any connection between the shooting
of Warren Reynolds and the killing?
Mr. FRITZ. Never.
Mr. BALL. The assassination of the President?
Mr. FRITZ. None at all.
Mr. BALL. The killing of Tippit?
Mr. FRITZ. No; we found nothing. We checked it.
Mr. BALL. Any connection between Oswald and Warren Reynolds or Ruby and
Warren Reynolds?
Mr. FRITZ. We found no connection. We had all kinds of rumors, of
course, that they were connected, and we didn't find anything.
Mr. BALL. Did you investigate it?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I had some officers investigate it, and the
forgery bureau investigated him because they were already working on
the shooting case. They handled all the shootings where people are not
killed.
Mr. BALL. I see.
Had you originally planned to be in the motorcade, had you been ordered
to be?
Mr. FRITZ. At first?
Mr. BALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. FRITZ. I had been; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Then it was changed, what day?
Mr. FRITZ. Ten o'clock the night before the parade, I got a call at
home telling me that my assignment had been changed and told me to go
to the speaker's tent.
Mr. BALL. Who called you?
Mr. FRITZ. Chief Stevenson.
Mr. BALL. Do you think that made any difference?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't know. I wouldn't want to say because it is like
telling about those transfers, where we would have been in that parade
we would have been pretty close under that window we might have had a
man shot or have good luck or bad luck.
Mr. DULLES. I didn't quite get you where were you to be in the
motorcade if you had been?
Mr. FRITZ. Right behind the Vice President's car.
Mr. DULLES. Behind the Vice President's car?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Had there been a plan for a car in front of the President's
car?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't know, I didn't make the arrangements for the parade.
That was only--those were the only instructions I had--was that one
assignment.
Mr. BALL. Did you--do you feel any resentment toward the Secret Service
or the FBI men because they were in your office?
Mr. FRITZ. Oh, no, no, because I work with them all the time.
Mr. BALL. You do?
Mr. FRITZ. Mr. Bookhout is in my office with the FBI. My books are all
on the outside and they check my books as often as I do.
Mr. BALL. Well, do you think you could have done a better job perhaps
if there hadn't been some investigators?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't know, that would be kind of a bad question.
Mr. BALL. I mean questioning Oswald.
Mr. FRITZ. Maybe they would have done better if I hadn't been there.
Mr. DULLES. How was the cooperation, was it pretty good between the
Secret Service and the FBI?
Mr. FRITZ. We got along fine with the Secret Service and FBI a hundred
percent.
Mr. McCLOY. Captain Fritz, did you have charge of the attempted
shooting of General Walker?
Mr. FRITZ. No; that wasn't homicide, it would be handled by Captain
Jones, it would have been the other bureau.
Mr. McCLOY. Captain Jones. Have we examined Captain Jones?
Mr. HUBERT. A deposition has been taken.
Mr. DULLES. You had nothing to do with the investigation of the Walker
case?
Mr. FRITZ. Not at all. That happened to be Captain Jones and Lieutenant
Cunningham.
Mr. DULLES. Did that case come up at all in any of your interrogations
of Oswald? Did you ever ask him whether he was involved or anything of
that sort?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't think that I ever asked him about that. If I did, I
don't remember it. I don't remember asking about that, asking him about
that at all. We had a little information on it but I didn't want to mix
it up in that other case and I didn't want to mix it up.
Mr. McCLOY. I would like to go back some distance. When you first went
into the building there.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. And as of your knowledge, when did the first broadcast go
out of a description of Oswald, according to what information you had
on the subject?
Mr. FRITZ. I wouldn't have that because I hadn't heard a broadcast of
a description when I went into the building. So if one went out it
probably was after I went in.
Mr. McCLOY. When Mr. Truly told you that one of his men was missing?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; then he gave me a description of him.
Mr. McCLOY. And he gave you a description at that time?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes; home address.
Mr. McCLOY. That was his home address and also a description?
Mr. FRITZ. His home address and a description, what he looked like, his
age, and so forth.
Mr. McCLOY. Now that description, to whom was that description given?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, I never did give it any anyone because when I got to
the office he was there.
Mr. McCLOY. He was there when you got to the office?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes.