Mr. FRITZ. I asked him how he got his job down there, too.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me that someone that he knew, a lady that he knew
recommended him for that job and he got that job through her. I believe
the records show something else but that is what he told me.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what happened that day; where he had been?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the
employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement and he
didn't think--I also asked him why he left the building. He said there
was so much excitement there then that "I didn't think there would be
any work done that afternoon and we don't punch a clock and they don't
keep very close time on our work and I just left."
Mr. BALL. At that time didn't you know that one of your officers,
Baker, had seen Oswald on the second floor?
Mr. FRITZ. They told me about that down at the bookstore; I believe Mr.
Truly or someone told me about it, told me they had met him--I think he
told me, person who told me about, I believe told me that they met him
on the stairway, but our investigation shows that he actually saw him
in a lunchroom, a little lunchroom where they were eating, and he held
his gun on this man and Mr. Truly told him that he worked there, and
the officer let him go.
Mr. BALL. Did you question Oswald about that?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I asked him about that and he knew that the
officer stopped him all right.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he was doing in the lunchroom?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he was having his lunch. He had a cheese sandwich
and a Coca-Cola.
Mr. BALL. Did he tell you he was up there to get a Coca-Cola?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he had a Coca-Cola.
Mr. BALL. That same time you also asked him about the rifle.
Mr. FRITZ. I am not sure that is the time I asked him about the rifle.
I did ask him about the rifle sometime soon after that occurred, and
after the showup; I am not sure which time I asked him about the rifle.
Mr. BALL. Did you bring the rifle down to your office?
Mr. FRITZ. Not to him; not for him to see.
Mr. BALL. You never showed it to him?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir. I asked him if he owned a rifle and he said he did
not. I asked him if he had ever owned a rifle. He said a good many
years ago he owned a small rifle but he hadn't owned one for a long
time. I asked him if he owned a rifle in Russia and he said, "You know
you can't own a rifle in Russia." He said, "I had a shotgun over there.
You can't own a rifle in Russia." And he denied owning a rifle of any
kind.
Mr. BALL. Didn't he say that he had seen a rifle at the building?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he told me he had seen a rifle at the building 2
or 3 days before that Mr. Truly and some men were looking at.
Mr. BALL. You asked him why he left the building, didn't you?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. He told you because he didn't think there would be any work?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he did after he left the building?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to
North Beckley near where he lived and went by home and changed clothes
and got his pistol and went to the show. I asked him why he took his
pistol and he said, "Well, you know about a pistol; I just carried it."
Let's see if I asked him anything else right that minute. That is just
about it.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him if he killed Tippit?
Mr. FRITZ. Sir?
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him if he shot Tippit?
Mr. FRITZ. Oh, yes.
Mr. BALL. What did he say.
Mr. FRITZ. He denied it--that he did not. The only thing he said he had
done wrong, "The only law I violated was in the show; I hit the officer
in the show; he hit me in the eye and I guess I deserved it." He said,
"That is the only law I violated." He said, "That is the only thing I
have done wrong."
Mr. BALL. Now, in this first conversation he told you that he had lived
at 1026 Beckley, didn't he?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. He didn't know whether it was north or south.
Mr. BALL. And you sent a group of officers out there to search that
address?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; that is right.
Mr. BALL. Before you talked to him the second time you had talked to
Potts on the telephone, had you not?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I had.
Mr. BALL. He told you what he had done?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. I should have remembered that when I talked to you
this morning.
Mr. BALL. Wasn't there some conversation also about what his political
beliefs were?
Mr. FRITZ. I believe that is later. I asked him about his political
beliefs and he said that he believed in fair play for Cuba. He said
he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba organization. They had
headquarters in New York, had an office in New Orleans.
At one time he had been secretary for this organization down there. I
asked him if he belonged to any other organizations of any kind, and he
said he belonged to the American Civil Liberties Union, and I asked him
what dues he paid. He said, "$5 per month." I believe he said, or for a
year. I am not positive about that. I would have to look at my notes.
Mr. BALL. Was that at the first or second questioning?
Mr. FRITZ. I think it was the second or third; that was later.
Mr. BALL. Later on?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. I don't think I talked to him about his political
beliefs until later.
Mr. BALL. Did you say anything to him about an attorney the first time
you talked to him?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; the first time. He asked about an attorney, and
I told him he certainly could have an attorney any time he wanted it.
I told him he could have an attorney any time he liked, any attorney
he wanted. I told him, I said, we will do it. He said he wanted an
attorney in New York. And he gave me his name, Mr. Abt, and he said
that is who he wanted, and I told him he could have anyone he liked. He
said, well, he knew about a case that he had handled some years ago,
where he represented the people who had violated the Smith Act, and he
said, "I don't know him personally, but that is the attorney I want."
He said, "If I can't get him then I may get the American Civil
Liberties Union to get me an attorney."
Mr. BALL. Was there anything said about calling him on the telephone?
Mr. FRITZ. A little bit later.
Mr. BALL. Not that time?
Mr. FRITZ. Not that minute. A little bit later, he asked something
else about an attorney and I said, "Did you call an attorney?" And he
said, "You know I can't use the telephone." And I said, "Yes, you can;
anybody can use a telephone." So, I told them to be sure to let him use
a telephone and the next time I talked to him he thanked me for that,
so I presume he called.
Mr. BALL. You don't know whether he called?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't know whether he did or not.
Mr. BALL. When you say a little bit later, you mean another period of
questioning?
Mr. FRITZ. Sometime during that talk.
Mr. BALL. You haven't identified these periods of questioning by time.
Mr. FRITZ. I can't identify them positively. I can do the best I can
by memory, but I wouldn't want to try to answer any of these questions
by time because I might get them in the wrong question and in the
wrong--time span.
Mr. BALL. At 6:30 you had another showup, at which time McWatters,
Guinyard, and Callaway--do you remember those witnesses? Callaway is
the car salesman, and Sam Guinyard is the porter at the used-car lot at
the corner of Patton and Jefferson, and McWatters is a cabdriver--no;
is a busdriver.
Mr. FRITZ. We have the names; if those names are right, that is true.
At that time on this showup we put some officers up on the stage with
him; officers stayed on the stage with him during the showup.
Mr. BALL. I point that time out as 6:30 because it appears that you
started to question Oswald after you had the Markham showup sometime
after 4:35, 4:40, 4:45. Did you question him steadily from then until
6:30, the time of the second showup?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't--I don't believe there was any time when I went
through a very long period without having to step to the door, or step
outside, to get a report from some pair of officers, or to give them
additional assignments.
Mr. BALL. Where did you keep him; in what room?
Mr. FRITZ. In my office there.
Mr. BALL. He was in your office all the time?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; within there.
Mr. BALL. Between the two showups at 4:35 and 6:30, he was in your
office all the time?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, I believe he was there all that time; let's see, 4:30
to 6:30; I don't remember him being carried out there any time.
Mr. BALL. Was he being questioned by somebody all the time, whether you
or somebody else?
Mr. FRITZ. I doubt it, because I don't think those officers talked to
him very much while I was out of the office, I think they might have
asked him a few questions, but didn't ask him much.
Mr. BALL. Were you present at the showup when Callaway and Guinyard and
the busdriver were there?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't believe so.
Mr. BALL. Now, your records show that in your office at 6:37 there was
an arraignment; do you remember that?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I remember that arraignment.
Mr. BALL. Will you tell us what happened then? It doesn't show
arraignments.
Mr. FRITZ. Do you show arraignment for 7:30?
Mr. BALL. No; 6:30. 7, you discussed, you met with Alexander, the
district attorney's office, didn't you?
Mr. FRITZ. I probably did. I probably talked to him about the evidence.
Mr. BALL. He was arraigned at 7:10.
Mr. FRITZ. He was in our outer office most all the time and I talked to
him two, three different times.
Mr. BALL. Did he ever take part in the questioning of Oswald?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't believe so; no, sir.
Mr. BALL. What happened at 7:10?
Mr. FRITZ. 7:10 we had this arraignment with Judge David Johnston,
and present. I was present, and Officers Sims, Boyd, Hall, and Mr.
Alexander from the district attorney's office, and that was in my
office.
Mr. BALL. How was the arraignment conducted?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, the judge gave him a warning, talked to him for a
little bit.
Mr. BALL. What warning did he give him?
Mr. FRITZ. He advised him of his rights. I believe he had a form; I
couldn't repeat it, of course, but I believe he had some forms that he
went over with him.
Mr. BALL. What rights did he advise him of; do you know?
Mr. FRITZ. Of his rights for an attorney, and everything that he told
was supposed to be voluntary and things of that kind.
Mr. BALL. He was advised that he had a right to an attorney, was he?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I am sure he was; I advised him on that on two or
three different occasions.
Mr. BALL. Did--you have a rule in Texas, do you, that whatever a
witness, a person in custody, says cannot be used against him unless he
is warned?
Mr. FRITZ. We do have; yes, sir. We have to warn them before we can
use the testimony. We have to warn them in the beginning before he is
questioned.
Mr. BALL. Before he is questioned you must warn him?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Before you questioned Oswald the first time, did you warn him?
Mr FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you tell him? What were the words you used?
Mr. FRITZ. I told him that any evidence that he gave me would be used
against him, and the offense for which the statement was made, that it
would have to be voluntary, made of his own accord.
Mr. BILL. Did he reply to that?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me that he didn't want a lawyer and he told me once
or twice that he didn't want to answer any questions at all. And once
or twice he did quit answering any questions and he told me he did want
to talk to his attorney, and I told him each time he didn't have to if
he didn't want to. So, later he sometimes would start talking to me
again.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember when you warned him again?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I warned him two or three different times; yes,
sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember when those times were?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; but during the afternoon.
Mr. BALL. They were--you were more or less continuously questioning
through the afternoon, were you?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, at 7:10, he was arraigned in your office?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. By arraign you mean he was informed of the charge against him?
Mr. FRITZ. That is right.
Mr. BALL. He wasn't asked to plea.
Mr. FRITZ. Before a judge, before a justice of the peace, a magistrate.
Mr. BALL. It is not your practice to ask for a plea at that stage, is
it?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; we don't.
Mr. BALL. All you do is advise him of his rights and the charge against
him?
Mr. FRITZ. That is right, I am not a lawyer, you might feel--I don't
want to leave a bad impression, I am just telling you what we do.
Mr. BALL. What the practice is in Texas.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did Oswald make any reply to Judge Johnston?
Mr. FRITZ. He said a lot of sarcastic things to him.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. Irritable. I can't remember all the things that he said. He
was that way at each arraignment. He said little sarcastic things, some
of the things were a little impudent things.
Mr. BALL. After the arraignment, your records show that there was--he
talked to an agent named Clements, do you remember that?
Mr. FRITZ. I believe that during one of the times when I was out, had
to leave the office for a minute to attend to something, Mr. Clements
asked me if it would be all right for him to take a little personal
history.
Mr. BALL. Were you present at that time?
Mr. FRITZ. No.
Mr. BALL. That was in your office?
Mr. FRITZ. In the office.
Mr. BALL. Who was there at the time?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't know. He was there, I know some of my officers were
there, they had to watch him all the time.
Mr. BALL. Sims and Boyd?
Mr. FRITZ. If they weren't there, some homicide officers were.
Mr. BALL. You had two officers with him all times?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; sometimes three.
Mr. BALL. Always with him in the room?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; all the time. They never questioned him but they
stayed in the room.
Mr. BALL. Then your records show another showup at 7:50?
Mr. FRITZ. At what time?