Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; and that is his--that is placed there just like
my office is, and right at the end of this hall, right here, using a
little part of that probably, but in there is a little conference room
right in here which comes clear across here.
Here, I have a desk, a metal desk with all the records, daily record,
the working records stacked right on here for the benefit of the
officers who work in this squadroom right here with these desks.
Mr. BALL. Where is the door to your office?
Mr. FRITZ. Here is the door to my office right here.
Mr. BALL. Mark that, please. Show me where Oswald was kept.
Mr. FRITZ. In this little place right here.
Mr. BALL. Put a big X there where Oswald was kept.
Mr. FRITZ. At first?
Mr. BALL. At first.
Mr. FRITZ. He was there when I came in. We didn't keep him there long.
Mr. BALL. That was only a few steps from your office?
Mr. FRITZ. Only a few steps. That is where he was when I came into the
office.
Mr. BALL. In the room marked "X" on this Exhibit No. 701 is where he
was?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. After a few moments you had him come in, in a little while,
to your office?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you have that in time when he came into your office?
Mr. FRITZ. The chief's map would have been, I could have made this
better if I had used the chief's map and put the lieutenant's office
over here.
Mr. BALL. Don't worry about it. That is close enough. We have him from
X which is the conference room into your office.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes; my desk is right here and I sit behind it right here
and there are some chairs and telephone table right here and I had him
sitting in a chair, right here.
Mr. BALL. Right beside you?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I have other chairs along here.
Mr. BALL. All right.
Now, Captain, about what time did you first bring him to your office?
Mr. FRITZ. Let's see, I have it right here. Oswald was arrested at 1:40
and I think he was taken to the city hall about 2:15 and I started
talking to him probably a little bit after that.
Mr. BALL. About what time?
Don't you have a time marked in your report there?
Mr. FRITZ. I think so.
Mr. BALL. Of 2:25.
Mr. FRITZ. 2:25?
Mr. BALL. On page 237 of your report, your report of Sims and Boyd
refers to a time that he was brought to your room, and I believe 165.
Mr. FRITZ. My report, my report should have a report right there that
should show it. This shows here 2:15 and I don't think that is right.
Mr. BALL. Mr. Baker's report on 165 gives the time also.
Mr. FRITZ. The nearest that I have here then would be shortly after
2:15 p.m.
Mr. BALL. You will notice that Sims and Boyd make it, state they
brought him from the conference room to your office at about 2:20.
Mr. FRITZ. That might be all right because I have 2:15 here but I think
2:15 may be 5 or 10 minutes too early.
Mr. BALL. It was soon after you got there?
Mr. FRITZ. Soon after I got there.
Mr. BALL. That you brought him into your office?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who was present when you talked with him?
Mr. FRITZ. At that time, when I first brought him in there there would
be Sims and Boyd and probably one or two officers from the office, I
am not sure, just who else might have been there. I know those two, I
am sure, I believe those two were there. Just about the time I started
talking to him, I had just started to question him, I got a phone
call from Mr. Shanklin, Gordon Shanklin, agent in charge of the FBI
calling for Mr. Bookhout, and I asked Mr. Bookhout to go to pick up the
extension.
Mr. BALL. Was Mr. Bookhout there?
Mr. FRITZ. He had just come into the lieutenant's office and Mr.
Shanklin asked that Mr. Hosty be in on that questioning, he said he
wanted him in there because of Mr. Hosty knowing these people and he
had been talking to them and he wanted him in there right then.
So, I got up from my desk and walked over to the lieutenant's office
and asked Mr. Bookhout to come in, the reason I asked both of them to
come in and Mr. Bookhout is in my office most of every day and works
with us in a lot of cases and asked him to come in with Mr. Hosty.
Mr. BALL. So Bookhout and Hosty came into your office?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Was anyone else present?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't remember whether there was anyone else right at that
time or not.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember what you said to Oswald and what he said to
you?
Mr. FRITZ. I can remember the thing that I said to him and what he said
to me, but I will have trouble telling you which period of questioning
those questions were in because I kept no notes at the time, and these
notes and things that I have made I would have to make several days
later, and the questions may be in the wrong place.
Mr. BALL. What is your best memory of what you said to him when he
first came in?
Mr. FRITZ. I first asked him as I do of most people something about
where he was from, and where he was raised and his education, and I
asked him where he went to school and he told me he went to school in
New York for a while, he had gone to school in Fort Worth some, that
he didn't finish high school, that he went to the Marines, and the
Marines, and finished high school training in the Marines.
And I don't remember just what else. I asked him just the general
questions for getting acquainted with him, and so I would see about how
to talk to him, and Mr. Hosty spoke up and asked him something about
Russia, and asked him if he had been to Russia, and he asked him if he
had been to Mexico City, and this irritated Oswald a great deal and he
beat on the desk and went into a kind of a tantrum.
Mr. BALL. What did he say when he was asked if he had been to Mexico
City?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he had not been. He did say he had been to Russia,
he was in Russia, I believe he said for some time.
Mr. BALL. He said he had not been in Mexico City?
Mr. FRITZ. At that time he told me he had not been in Mexico City.
Mr. BALL. Who asked the question whether or not he had been to Mexico
City?
Mr. FRITZ. Mr. Hosty. I wouldn't have known anything about Mexico City.
Mr. BALL. Was there anything said about Oswald's wife?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. He said, he told Hosty, he said, "I know you."
He said, "You accosted my wife on two occasions," and he was getting
pretty irritable and so I wanted to quiet him down a little bit because
I noticed if I talked to him in a calm, easy manner it wasn't very hard
to get him to settle down, and I asked him what he meant by accosting,
I thought maybe he meant some physical abuse or something and he said,
"Well, he threatened her." And he said, "He practically told her she
would have to go back to Russia." And he said, "He accosted her on two
different occasions."
Mr. BALL. Was there anything said about where he lived?
Mr. FRITZ. Where he lived? Right at that time?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. I am sure I had no way of asking him where he lived but I am
not too sure about that--just how quick he told me because he corrected
me, I thought he lived in Irving and he told me he didn't live in
Irving. He lived on Beckley as the officer had told me outside.
(At this point Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room.)
Mr. FRITZ. And I asked him about that arrangement and I am again, I
can't be too sure when this question was asked. I asked him why his
wife was living in Irving and why he was living on Beckley and he said
she was living with Mrs. Paine. Mrs. Paine was trying to learn to speak
Russian and that his wife, Mrs. Oswald, had a small baby and Mrs. Paine
helped with the baby and his wife taught Mrs. Paine Russian and it
made a good arrangement for both of them and he stayed over in town.
I thought it was kind of an awkward arrangement and I questioned him
about the arrangement a little bit and I asked him how often he went
out there and he said weekends.
I asked him why he didn't stay out there. He said he didn't want to
stay out there all the time, Mrs. Paine and her husband didn't get
along too well. They were separated a good part of the time and I asked
him if he had a car and he said he didn't have a car, he said the
Paines had two cars but he didn't use their cars.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him anything about his address or did he
volunteer the address?
Mr. FRITZ. He volunteered the address at Beckley?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. Well, I will tell you, whether we asked him or told him one,
he never did deny it, he never did deny the Beckley Street address at
all. The only thing was he didn't know whether it was north or south.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him whether it was north or south?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, but he didn't know. But from the description of
surroundings we could tell it was North Beckley.
Mr. BALL. Up to that time you hadn't sent any men out to North Beckley,
had you?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, I sent them out there real soon and Officer Potts
called me back from out there and talked to me on the telephone and
gave me a report from out there on the telephone, and I am sure that
that is the time that he told me about the way he was registered, and I
asked Oswald about why he was registered under this other name.
Mr. BALL. What other name?
Mr. FRITZ. Of O. L. Lee.
Mr. BALL. O. H. Lee?
Mr. FRITZ. O. H. Lee. He said, well, the lady didn't understand him,
she put it down there and he just left it that way.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him whether he had signed his name O. H. Lee?
Mr. FRITZ. No, I hadn't asked him.
Mr. BALL. Did you know that he had personally registered?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. BALL. He said the lady didn't understand him?
Mr. FRITZ. He said the lady didn't understand him and he just left it
that way.
Mr. BALL. How long did this first questioning take?
Mr. FRITZ. Of course, I talked to him several times during that
afternoon. I would have to go out and talk to every officer and give
them different assignments and talk to them about these witnesses, and
help some in getting the witnesses over there.
I also asked Lieutenant Day to bring the rifle down after I sent after
Mrs. Oswald, and had her to look at the rifle. She couldn't identify
it positively but she said it looked like the rifle that he had, but
she couldn't say for sure. She said she thought he brought it from New
Orleans.
Mr. BALL. How long a time did you sit with Oswald and question him this
first time?
Mr. FRITZ. The first time, not but a few minutes.
Mr. BALL. That was the time Hosty and Bookhout were there?
Mr. FRITZ. That is right. But sometimes when I would leave the office
to do something else, it is hard to imagine how many things we had
happening at the one time or how many different officers we had doing
different things without seeing it but we were terribly busy.
I had called all my officers back on duty and had every one of them
assigned to something, so going back and forth kept me pretty busy
running back and forth at the time of questioning.
I don't know when I would leave, I suppose Mr. Bookhout and Mr. Hosty
asked him a few questions, but I don't believe they questioned him a
great deal while I was gone.
Mr. BALL. You said just a few minutes, what did you mean by that, 15,
20, 25?
Mr. FRITZ. It would be pretty hard to guess at a time like that because
we weren't even quitting for lunch so I don't even know, time didn't
mean much right at that time. For a few minutes, you would think 30 or
40 minutes the first time.
Mr. BALL. Thirty or forty minutes?
Mr. FRITZ. I am guessing at that time.
Mr. BALL. He hadn't been searched up to that time, had he?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he had been searched.
Mr. BALL. Wasn't he searched later in the jail office?
Mr. FRITZ. He was searched, the officers who arrested him made the
first search, I am sure. He had another search at the building and I
believe that one of my officers, Mr. Boyd, found some cartridges in his
pocket in the room after he came to the city hall. I can't tell you the
exact time when he searched him.
Mr. BAIL. You don't have the record of the time when he was searched?
Mr. FRITZ. No.
Mr. BALL. You remember they found a transfer of Dallas Transit Company?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; found a transfer.
Mr. BALL. And some bullets?
Mr. FRITZ. Bullets; yes, sir. Cartridges.
Mr. BALL. He had an identification bracelet, too, didn't he?
Mr. FRITZ. I am not sure about that.
Mr. BALL. You don't remember?
Mr. FRITZ. No.
Mr. BALL. You had a showup that afternoon?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. May I ask what kind of bullets these were?
Mr. FRITZ. .38, cartridges for a .38 pistol.
Mr. McCLOY. Pistol?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, pistol cartridges.
Mr. BALL. You had a showup that afternoon?
Mr. FRITZ. That first showup was for a lady who was an eye witness and
we were trying to get that showup as soon as we could because she was
beginning to faint and getting sick.
In fact, I had to leave the office and carry some ammonia across the
hall, they were about to send her to the hospital or something and we
needed that identification real quickly, and she got to feeling all
right after using this ammonia.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember her name?
Mr. FRITZ. I have her name here.
Mr. BALL. Was that Mrs. Markham?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, Helen Markham.
Mr. BALL. That was the first showup, was it?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Were you there?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. With her?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Will you tell me what happened there?
Mr. FRITZ. She looked at these people very carefully, and she picked
him out and made the positive identification.
Mr. BALL. What did she say?
Mr. FRITZ. She said that is the man that I saw shoot the officer.
Mr. BALL. Who did she point out?
Mr. FRITZ. She pointed out Oswald; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. In your showup room you have the prisoners separated from the
visitors?
Mr. FRITZ. There is a screen. They are on a stage with numbers over
their heads for identification, and measurements to show their height,
and this is lighted back there so the people can see them plainly,
and the people who are looking at them usually sit at desks out some
distance, probably as far as here from that window from the showup
screen.
Mr. BALL. Near the window, you mean about 15, 20 feet.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes; about that far.
Mr. BALL. And then, now in this showup there were two officers of the
vice squad and an officer and a clerk from the jail that were in the
showup with Oswald?
Mr. FRITZ. That is true. I borrowed those officers, I was a little bit
afraid some prisoner might hurt him, there was a lot of excitement and
a lot of feeling right about that time so we didn't have an officer in
my office the right size to show with him so I asked two of the special
service officers if they would help me and they said they would be glad
to, so they took off their coats and neckties and fixed themselves
where they would look like prisoners and they were good enough to stand
on each side of him in the showup and we used a man who works in the
jail office, a civilian employee as a third man.
Mr. BALL. Now, were they dressed a little better than Oswald, do you
think, these three people?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, I don't think there was a great deal of difference.
They had on their regular working clothes and after they opened their
shirts and took off their ties, why they looked very much like anyone
else.
Mr. BALL. They were all handcuffed together, were they?
Mr. FRITZ. I am not sure, I don't remember for sure if they were all
handcuffed together or not. They probably did. I couldn't be positive
about that.
Mr. BALL. Now, after you had had the showup with Helen Markham, did you
question Oswald again?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. In your office?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Go directly from the showup room up there?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, I am not sure whether directly, but shortly, there
wouldn't be too much time when we talk to him after that.
Mr. BALL. Your records show the showup for Helen Markham was 4:45.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you think that is about right?
Mr. FRITZ. I think that is about right.
Mr. BALL. All right, now how long after that would you say you went
back to your office and talked to him again?
Mr. FRITZ. I would say within, it would take us a few minutes, you
know, to get him back from the showup, probably 15 minutes, something
like that.
Mr. BALL. Who was present?
Mr. FRITZ. Twenty minutes.
Mr. BALL. Who was present at this questioning?
Mr. FRITZ. This particular questioning?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. I believe--I don't want to be sure about whether Mr. Hosty
stayed at this next time or not because he left at some time. Mr.
Bookhout stayed and my officers were there.
Mr. BALL. Now, there was a time when you asked him where he worked and
what he did?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.