Mr. McCLOY. You know the purpose of what we are here for, captain?
Mr. FRITZ. I think so.
Mr. McCLOY. We have a very broad mandate to look into all the
circumstances relating to these unfortunate incidents that occurred in
Dallas on November 22 last year, and thereafter.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. And we have had Chief Curry on this morning, as I am sure
you understand, and we would like to continue our investigation through
you. We understand that you were in very direct contact with this
problem of investigation, and I will ask you to stand and raise your
right hand, sir.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give in this hearing will
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?
Mr. FRITZ. J. W. Fritz.
Mr. BALL. Where do you live?
Mr. FRITZ. I live in Dallas.
Mr. BALL. Could you tell us something about yourself; tell us where you
were born and what your education is and what your training has been as
a police officer?
Mr. FRITZ. I was born in Dublin, Tex., and lived there for several
years. My father moved to New Mexico, and I grew up at Lake Arthur, N.
Mex. And then I came back to Texas, and came to the police department
in January of 1921, and have been there ever since.
Mr. BALL. You started as a patrolman, did you, in the Dallas Police
Department?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I started as a patrolman, worked as a patrolman
approximately 2 years, I am not sure of the exact time and I was then
moved to the detectives' office and have come up through the ranks
there, up and down.
Mr. BALL. You are now a captain of police, are you?
Mr. FRITZ. Captain of homicide and robbery bureau; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How long have you held that office?
Mr. FRITZ. Since it was set up, I believe, in 1932 or 1933, I am not
sure.
Mr. BALL. You have been head of homicide and robbery detail since 1932
or 1933?
Mr. FRITZ. That is right. I have had other jobs, too. One time I had
the whole CID; they didn't call it CID at that time; they called it
detectives' office, but I kept the homicide and robbery under my
supervision during that time. I later went back with the homicide and
robbery, full time.
Mr. BALL. Is there a division of detectives separate from homicide and
robbery?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, we call it now the CID. It would be ordinarily called
the detective division; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who is in charge of that?
Mr. FRITZ. Who is in charge of it?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. Of course, we are all directly under the chief, and Chief
Stevenson is the head of the CID, M. W. Stevenson.
Mr. BALL. Have you had any special training in police schools or places
like that?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, of course, I have had a good many years of experience,
and I attempted, I still go to school to our police schools, and I now
attend seminars at different places, Oklahoma University and Texas
University and go to most any training school that is available.
Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, you had been told the President or
before November 22, 1963, you had been told that the President was
coming to Dallas?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And had you taken certain precautions for his safety?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, we had taken some precautions but those were changed.
We were told in the beginning that we would be in the parade directly
behind it, I don't know whether it was the second or third car, but the
Vice President's car, that we would be directly behind that, and we did
make preparation for that.
But at 10 o'clock the night before the parade, Chief Stevenson called
me at home and told me that had been changed, and I was assigned with
two of my officers to the speakers' stand at the Trade Mart.
Mr. BALL. Was most of your work out at the Trade Mart that day?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, we didn't have a great deal of work to do there, other
than check the speakers' stand and make a check to see if everything
was all right before the President got there. He would have been there
in 10 more minutes.
Mr. BALL. Did you check the waiters who had been hired?
Mr. FRITZ. That wasn't my job.
Mr. BALL. Someone else did?
Mr. FRITZ. Someone else did; yes.
Mr. BALL. How many men did you have assigned?
Mr. FRITZ. Where?
Mr. BALL. With you at the Trade Mart.
Mr. FRITZ. Two.
Mr. BALL. Who were they?
Mr. FRITZ. Detectives Sims and Boyd.
Mr. BALL. And they are both homicide?
Mr. FRITZ. Both homicide officers; yes. I had other officers assigned
to different places. I had two of my officers assigned to ride in the
car that was in front of the parade a half mile, with Chief Lumpkin.
That was Senkel and Turner.
Mr. BALL. You were at the Trade Mart when you heard the President had
been shot?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. That was about what time you heard that? You have a little
notebook there.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I have a notebook.
Mr. BALL. Did you make notes as of that time?
Mr. FRITZ. We made this, not at that time, we made this after the
tragedy.
Mr. BALL. How long after?
Mr. FRITZ. We started on it real soon after, and we have been working
on it ever since.
Mr. BALL. Did somebody assist you in the preparation of that notebook?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who was that?
Mr. FRITZ. I had several officers assist me with this, and some
secretaries, of course, that helped us with it. I had my lieutenant, T.
L. Baker, help me to put this book together, this larger book, I think
you have a copy of it there, and to make some additional books like
this.
Of course, we worked the whole office ever since it happened so it is
hard to say just who helped.
Mr. BALL. Now, the book you are talking about is a notebook that you
have with you, the book at which you are looking now?
Mr. FRITZ. This is the book I am talking about.
Mr. BALL. You made a formal report, didn't you, to the attorney general
of Texas?
Mr. FRITZ. We, we didn't make it for the attorney general of Texas.
At the time we made this we were just making, we were told that we
would probably need a report for this investigation, and we started
immediately to making this. We didn't know at that time the attorney
general would need one of these but when we were told he would need one
we, of course, sent him one, too.
Mr. BALL. What I want to do is distinguish between the books you are
looking at for this record.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You have a book that is of some size there?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you call that what?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, "Investigation of the Assassination of President
Kennedy."
Mr. BALL. That is the same as Commission's Document No. 81B. So, then,
you have a smaller book before you, haven't you?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes; a little index book.
Mr. BALL. An index.
Mr. FRITZ. It really is an index book for this larger file but it is
kind of a quick reference book.
Mr. BALL. I see. Now, what time did you, what time was it that you
heard the President had been shot?
Mr. FRITZ. I show that he was shot at 12:35, and one of the Secret
Service men who was assigned the same location where we were assigned,
got a little call on his, evidently got a call on his little transistor
radio and Chief Stevenson, who was also assigned to some part of the
building there, came to me and told me that the President had been hit
at the underpass, and asked me to go to the hospital and see what I
could do.
Mr. BALL. You say you know he was shot at 12:35?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You mean that is the time you heard about it?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, we heard about it immediately after that, and we
arrived and we checked----
Mr. BALL. What time did you hear about it?
Mr. FRITZ. Just when Chief Stevenson came to me and told me.
Mr. BALL. Did you make a note of it at the time?
Mr. FRITZ. No sir; I didn't make a note of it at the time.
Mr. BALL. When you heard of this what did you do?
Mr. FRITZ. Immediately left, and I told the two officers with me, Mr.
Sims and Boyd that we would run to our police car that was parked
nearby, listened to radio call to see whether it was a hoax or whether
it was the truth. It was only 10 minutes' time for the President's
arrival, we didn't want to leave unless this was a genuine call, and a
true call.
When we got to the radio, of course, we began to get other news. We
went to Parkland Hospital as we had been instructed, and as we drove
up in front of the hospital, we I suppose intercepted the chief, Chief
Curry, between the curb and the hospital, and I told him we had had a
call to the hospital but I felt we were going to the wrong place, we
should go to the scene of the crime and he said, "Well, go ahead," so I
don't think our car ever quit rolling but we went right to the scene of
the crime.
Mr. BALL. Did you go directly to a building?
Mr. FRITZ. Directly to the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. BALL. What time did you arrive there?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, sir; we arrived there--we arrived at the hospital at
12:45, if you want that time, and at the scene of the offense at 12:58.
Mr. BALL. 12:58; the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Were there any officers there at the time?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. In the front?
Mr. FRITZ. Several officers; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you know who they were?
Mr. FRITZ. I couldn't give you the name of all of them.
Mr. BALL. What did you do when you got to this building?
Mr. FRITZ. Some officer told us they thought he was in that building,
so we had our guns----
Mr. McCLOY. Thought who was in the building?
Mr. FRITZ. The man who did the shooting was in the building. So, we,
of course, took our shotguns and immediately entered the building and
searched the building to see if we could find him.
Mr. BALL. Were there guards on the doors of the building at that time?
Mr. FRITZ. I am not sure, but I don't--there has been some question
about that, but the reason I don't think that--this may differ with
someone else, but I am going to tell you what I know.
Mr. BALL. All right.
Mr. McCLOY. By all means.
Mr. FRITZ. After I arrived one of the officers asked me if I would like
to have the building sealed and I told him I would.
Mr. BALL. What officer was that?
Mr. FRITZ. That is a uniformed officer, but I don't know what his
name was, he was outside, of course, I went upstairs and I don't know
whether he did because I couldn't watch him.
Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?
Mr. FRITZ. We began searching the floors, looking for anyone with a gun
or looked suspicious, and we searched through hurriedly through most
all the floors.
Mr. McCLOY. Which floor did you start with?
Mr. FRITZ. We started at the bottom; yes, sir. And, of course, and I
think we went up probably to the top.
Different people would call me when they would find something that
looked like something I should know about and I ran back and forth from
floor to floor as we were searching, and it wasn't very long until
someone called me and told me they wanted me to come to the front
window, the corner window, they had found some empty cartridges.
Mr. BALL. That was on the sixth floor?
Mr. FRITZ. That is right; the sixth floor, corner window.
Mr. BALL. What did you do?
Mr. FRITZ. I told them not to move the cartridges, not to touch
anything until we could get the crime lab to take pictures of them just
as they were lying there and I left an officer assigned there to see
that that was done, and the crime lab came almost immediately, and took
pictures, and dusted the shelfs for prints.
Mr. BALL. Which officers, which officer did you leave there?
Mr. FRITZ. Carl Day was the man I talked to about taking pictures.
Mr. BALL. Day?
Mr. FRITZ. Lieutenant Day; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you know whether he took the pictures or not?
Mr. FRITZ. I feel like he did but I don't know because I didn't stay to
see whether he could.
Mr. BALL. You didn't know whether he took the pictures?
Mr. FRITZ. I went on searching the building. I just told them to
preserve that evidence and I went right ahead.
Mr. BALL. What happened after that?
Mr. FRITZ. A few minutes later some officer called me and said they had
found the rifle over near the back stairway and I told them same thing,
not to move it, not to touch it, not to move any of the boxes until we
could get pictures, and as soon as Lieutenant Day could get over there
he made pictures of that.
Mr. BALL. After the pictures had been taken of the rifle what happened
then?
Mr. FRITZ. After the pictures had been made then I ejected a live
shell, a live cartridge from the rifle.
Mr. BALL. And who did you give that to?
Mr. FRITZ. I believe that I kept that at that time myself. Later I gave
it to the crime lab who, in turn, turned it over to the FBI.
Mr. BALL. Did you put any marking of yours on the empty cartridge?
Mr. FRITZ. On that loaded cartridge?
Mr. BALL. On that loaded cartridge.
Mr. FRITZ. I don't know, I am not sure, I don't think so.
Mr. BALL. Was there any conversation you heard that this rifle was a
Mauser?
Mr. FRITZ. I heard all kinds of reports about that rifle. They called
it most everything.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear any conversation right there that day?
Mr. FRITZ. Right at that time?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. I just wouldn't be sure because there were so many people
talking at the same time, I might have; I am not sure whether I did or
not.
Mr. BALL. Did you think it was a Mauser?
Mr. FRITZ. No sir; I knew--you can read on the rifle what it was and
you could also see on the cartridge what caliber it was.
Mr. BALL. Well, did you ever make any--did you ever say that it was a
7.65 Mauser?
Mr. FRITZ. No sir; I am sure I did not.
Mr. BALL. Or did you think it was such a thing?
Mr. FRITZ. No sir; I did not. If I did, the Mauser part, I won't be too
positive about Mauser because I am not too sure about Mauser rifles
myself. But I am certainly sure that I never did give anyone any
different caliber than the one that shows on the cartridges.
Mr. BALL. Did you initial the rifle?
Mr. FRITZ. The rifle; no, sir.
Mr. BALL. You didn't. Who did you give the rifle to after you ejected
this live cartridge?
Mr. FRITZ. I believe that that rifle, I didn't take the rifle with me,
Lieutenant Day took that rifle, I believe, to the city hall, and later
I asked him to bring it down--I don't believe I ever carried that rifle
to city hall. I believe Lieutenant Day carried it to city hall, anyway
if you will ask him he can be more positive than I.
Mr. BALL. While you were there Mr. Truly came up to you?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; where the rifle was found. That was about the
time we finished Mr. Truly came and told me that one of his employees
had left the building, and I asked his name and he gave me his name,
Lee Harvey Oswald, and I asked his address and he gave me the Irving
address.
Mr. BALL. This was after the rifle was found?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; after the rifle was found.
Mr. BALL. Another witness has testified that the rifle was found at
1:22 p.m., does that about accord with your figures or your memory?
Mr. FRITZ. Let's see, I might have that here. I don't think I have that
time.
Mr. BALL. Do you have the time at which the shells were found?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't have that time.
Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there at the Texas School Book
Depository?
Mr. McCLOY. Can I ask one question there, did you take any precautions
as to fingerprints before you ejected this?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. So in your opinion your fingerprints wouldn't show?
Mr. FRITZ. He could have taken mine but I let him dust first before I
ejected a shell.
Mr. BALL. How long did you stay at the Texas School Book Depository
after you found the rifle?
Mr. FRITZ. After he told me about this man almost, I left immediately
after he told me that.
Mr. BALL. You left almost immediately after he told you that?
Mr. FRITZ. Almost after he told me that man, I felt it important to
hold that man.
Mr. BALL. Did you give descriptions to Sims and Boyd?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I told them to drive me to city hall and see if
the man had a criminal record and we picked up two other officers and
my intentions were to go to the house at Irving. When I got to the city
hall, I asked, because, I will tell you why I asked because while we
were in the building we heard that our officer had been killed, someone
came in and told me, I asked when I got to my office who shot the
officer, and they told me his name was Oswald, and I said, "His full
name?" And they told me and I said, "That is the suspect we are looking
for in the President's killing."
So, I then called some of my officers to go right quickly, and asked
them about how much evidence we had on the officer's killing and they
told me they had several eye witnesses, and they had some real good
witnesses, and I instructed them to get those witnesses over for
identification just as soon as they could, and for us to prepare a real
good case on the officer's killing so we would have a case to hold him
without bond while we investigated the President's killing where we
didn't have so many witnesses.
Mr. BALL. Now, you instructed some other officers to go to Irving,
didn't you?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. And you told Sims and Boyd to stay with you?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I don't believe I sent them to Irving, I have the
names of the officers I sent to Irving.
Mr. BALL. Who did you send to Irving?
Mr. FRITZ. To Irving, Officer Stovall, Rose, and Adamcik.
Mr. BALL. After you had done that what did you do?
Mr. FRITZ. I sent some officers--you mean right at that time? I also
sent officers over to the Beckley address, you know, as soon as we got
there, I don't believe we had the Beckley address at this part of this
question.
Mr. BALL. You didn't have it at that time, did you?
Mr. FRITZ. Not right at this time, but as soon as I got to that address.
Mr. BALL. Let's come to that a little later and we find out when you
got there.
Mr. FRITZ. When I got there?
Mr. BALL. Yes. What did you do after you had sent the officers to
Irving?
Mr. FRITZ. When I started to talk to this prisoner or maybe just before
I started to talk to him, some officer told me outside of my office
that he had a room on Beckley, I don't know who that officer was, I
think we can find out, I have--since I have talked to you this morning
I have talked to Lieutenant Baker and he says I know maybe who that
officer was, but I am not sure yet.
Mr. BALL. Some officer told you that he thought this man had a room on
Beckley?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Had he been brought into the station by that time?
Mr. FRITZ. He was at the station when we got there, you know.
Mr. BALL. He was?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; so then I talked to him and I asked him where his
room was on Beckley.
Mr. BALL. Then you started to interrogate Oswald, did you?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you called him into your room?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Will you describe the interrogation room, what it looks like
and where it is located?
Mr. FRITZ. It is on the, room 317, on the third floor of the courts
building, and it isn't a large office. I believe it is 9-1/2 feet by 14
feet, I have the exact measurements that I think are correct. Glass all
around, and it has a door leading out into a hallway. My secretaries
are seated in the front. There is a lieutenant's office and desk across
the hall from me. To my right and through the back window out of my
office would be the squadroom where the officers write their reports.
And at the end of the hall I have an interrogation room and one
interrogation in back of the squadroom.