The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.
Mr. McCLOY. (presiding). We are ready.
Mr. RANKIN. Chief Curry, I was asking you just as we closed your
examination before lunch about Exhibits 709, 711 particularly, and you
will recall those are the documents concerning the conversation between
Agent Hosty of the FBI and Jack Revill who is your lieutenant of
criminal intelligence section, is that right?
Mr. CURRY. It was reported to me, I was given a report to that effect.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know anything about the matters described in those
letters?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us what you know about them? Do you want to
see them?
Mr. CURRY. Yes. One of the documents tells me that Lieutenant Revill
states that about 2:50 p.m. on the 22d----
Mr. RANKIN. Of what?
Mr. CURRY. November 1963, that he met Special Agent Jim Hosty of the
FBI in the basement of the city hall, and at that time Agent Hosty
related to Revill that the subject, Oswald, was a member of the
Communist Party, and that he was residing in Dallas.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you make any further inquiry after you got that
information?
Mr. CURRY. None other than I had a report from V. J. Brian, a detective
in criminal intelligence, who was present at the time this conversation
took place.
Mr. RANKIN. That later report was as of April 20?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. 1964?
Mr. CURRY. The last report.
Mr. RANKIN. What was the occasion for that?
Mr. CURRY. I just asked Revill if anyone was with him at the time, and
he recalled that Detective Brian was at the time.
Mr. RANKIN. Otherwise, did you know anything more about that matter?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I believe Captain Fritz said that he, he told me he
knew they had been out to talk to Mrs. Paine.
Mr. RANKIN. By they, who do you mean?
Mr. CURRY. Some of the FBI agents, and that he did know that Oswald
apparently knew Hosty, because Hosty was present in the interrogation
room.
Mr. RANKIN. By he there at that point who do you mean?
Mr. CURRY. Oswald.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes; but you say he knew.
Mr. CURRY. That Oswald knew Hosty.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mr. CURRY. Because according to Fritz he said that he was quite bitter,
Oswald was quite bitter toward Hosty because he had made the statement
that "you mistreated my wife."
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know how Captain Fritz learned that?
Mr. CURRY. He was in Captain Fritz's office when this statement was
made, according to Captain Fritz.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, after the assassination, did you give any orders of
your staff, making any reports about anything they knew about either
the assassination or the Tippit killing?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; we had all of our officers who knew anything at
all about it to submit reports which is a normal procedure in any
unusual incident.
Mr. RANKIN. How did you direct that that be done?
Mr. CURRY. Just through my staff.
Mr. RANKIN. Was that in writing?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. You just told them?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. And was that direction promptly given?
Mr. CURRY. I am sure it was passed on immediately. All orders are.
Mr. RANKIN. How soon after the assassination?
Mr. CURRY. I would say probably within the next day after we met and we
decided that an investigation should be conducted into all phases of
this.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you give any directions about furnishing information
immediately about what anyone knew about the killing of Oswald?
Mr. CURRY. No specific directions. After Oswald was killed, I called
and I talked with Deputy Chief Stevenson of the criminal investigation
division the next morning of the next day, I believe this was Monday,
and we decided we should appoint an investigative group.
Mr. RANKIN. Who was that?
Mr. CURRY. That was Inspector Sawyer, headed by Inspector Sawyer.
Mr. RANKIN. Who else?
Mr. CURRY. And Captain O. A. Jones, and then I think they had some
lieutenants assigned to it and some detectives. Their assignment was to
find out every person who was present in or around the city hall at the
time that Lee Oswald was killed, and to get a report from them.
I know Lieutenant Revill was also in on this, and then they would also,
in addition to getting a report, they would personally interrogate each
one of them to see whether or not any information they had knowledge of
might be left out of the reports.
And you have a copy of all of these reports, both the reports the
officers made, the additional interrogation made by members of this
investigating group.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether they inquired as to the knowledge of
any of these people about conversations with Ruby immediately after the
shooting of Oswald?
Mr. CURRY. I believe they have some reports to that effect.
Mr. RANKIN. Was that a part of their responsibility to get those
reports?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; anything that they had, that they could get regarding
this.
Mr. RANKIN. And you would expect the police officers to tell anything
they knew at once?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. So far as you know has all of that information been
supplied to the Commission?
Mr. CURRY. So far as I know.
Mr. RANKIN. It has?
Mr. CURRY. So far as I know it has been supplied.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn about the claims of some police officers that
Ruby had said something about the killing to them shortly after killing
Oswald?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. When did you first learn that?
Mr. CURRY. I don't recall exactly, the exact date that I learned of
this. But I think the first time it came to my knowledge was that Agent
Sorrels of the Secret Service, sometime after this told me, he said,
"Now Chief, I don't know that, they could--that I could testify to
this," but he said, "immediately after Oswald was shot, I went to his
cell"----
Mr. RANKIN. Whose cell?
Mr. CURRY. To Oswald's--I mean to Ruby's cell, "and I went in and
talked to him, told him who I was, and"----
Mr. RANKIN. Was anyone else present?
Mr. CURRY. There was a patrolman and a guard, I think, and perhaps a
detective.
Mr. RANKIN. Who were they?
Mr. CURRY. I believe Dean was present, Sergeant Dean, I don't know who
these officers were but it is revealed in these reports that have been
made.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mr. CURRY. Sorrels told me, he said, "I asked Ruby why he did it and he
said somebody had to kill the son-of-a-bitch and the police department
couldn't do it."
I believe he also said, "I couldn't think, stand the thought of having
Jacqueline Kennedy having to return to Dallas and go through a trial
for him." I told him this was not for the Secret Service or not for
publication, I just asked him the question but he said, "I did not warn
him against himself, about his constitutional rights, so I don't know
that I would be allowed to testify to this."
Mr. RANKIN. When did Sorrels first tell you that?
Mr. CURRY. This was the--it seems to me like several days after this
occurred.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you report that to anyone?
Mr. CURRY. I believe I told Chief Stevenson about it or whoever was--or
perhaps Captain or Inspector Sawyer or some of them. This information
was relayed on to the investigating group.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether they recorded it any place?
Mr. CURRY. No; we called the officers, when I say we, the investigating
team did talk with the officers and they recall hearing this testimony.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know when they first gave you any information that
they knew of any such conversation?
Mr. CURRY. I don't recall that; no, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that the officers ever said to you or placed
in writing in any memorandum or communication to you that they heard
Ruby say anything beyond what you have described Mr. Sorrels to say?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. If your records show that the first time any such
information was communicated to you, was around February 18, 1964,
would you think that was a correct record?
Mr. CURRY. Perhaps it is. When Sorrels, if that is when he says it is
when it was, perhaps that is when it was. But this was prior to Ruby's
trial that I know that he came forward with this information and he
said, "It is possible they can use this testimony in the trial of
Ruby", but he didn't feel like that he could testify to it because he
had not warned him of his constitutional rights.
But that these officers were present, and if they overheard it, then he
said, "You ought to at least talk to Henry Wade about it and he might
be able to get that in his testimony on that basis."
Mr. RANKIN. You think that Dean was one of the officers involved who
overheard it?
Mr. CURRY. I believe he was.
Mr. RANKIN. And who else?
Mr. CURRY. I don't recall now. It is in our reports.
Mr. RANKIN. Was the officer Archer?
Mr. CURRY. I believe Officer Archer was there.
Mr. RANKIN. Was it Officer Newcomb?
Mr. CURRY. I believe so.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you believe whether they testified to something like
that at the trial?
Mr. CURRY. I was not present during the trial but I understand they did
testify.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not those officers made a report
about what they knew about the killing of Oswald prior to February 18?
Mr. CURRY. I don't believe they did.
Mr. RANKIN. You don't think they made any report to you or to the FBI
or anybody else?
Mr. CURRY. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. RANKIN. So if they did not include such information in any report
or statement prior to February 18, 1964, you don't know it?
Mr. CURRY. That is correct, I do not know it.
Mr. McCLOY. May I ask, when was, has there been testimony as to when
Agent Sorrels told the chief that he had heard this?
Mr. RANKIN. I don't recall the date.
Mr. CURRY. But it was--I don't recall the date but it was sometime
after the shooting of Oswald.
Mr. RANKIN. Was it 1 day or 2 days?
Mr. CURRY. It was several days but it was prior to the trial of Jack
Ruby.
Mr. RANKIN. Was it a week later?
Mr. CURRY. I would say perhaps it was more than a week later, it was
several weeks, I would say, but prior to the trial, Sorrels talked to
me and he said that this may be important in a trial of the case.
"Some of the things that Ruby told me immediately following the
shooting of Oswald," and he said, "I don't think I can testify to
it, but you might talk to Mr. Wade and he might be able to get the
testimony entered because these officers were not talking they just
overheard the conversation."
Mr. McCLOY. This was a substantial period after the date?
Mr. CURRY. The assassination.
Mr. McCLOY. The date of the assassination?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. And the date that Sorrels was alleged to have heard this
from Ruby?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Was it before or after Christmas?
Mr. CURRY. I believe it was after Christmas. I just couldn't be sure
because I was not----
Mr. RANKIN. Where did the conversation occur?
Mr. CURRY. On the telephone.
Mr. RANKIN. Was anybody present?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir.
Mr RANKIN. Did you make a written record of the information?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I just told Chief Stevenson, who is in charge of
criminal investigation, to attempt to determine who was present at that
time; that Oswald was--I mean that Ruby was talking to Sorrels, and to
see what they heard at that time, which they did, and the officers then
made a report.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell Chief Stevenson at that time what Sorrels had
told you?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he made any record of it?
Mr. CURRY. I doubt that he did.
Mr. RANKIN. You haven't tried to find out?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I haven't.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any practice in the police force about
recording statements by the accused in first-degree murder cases?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Now changing to another subject, do you recall--you said
that you had made some comments upon the evidence in regard to Oswald
and to the media--do you recall what you said about that?
Mr. CURRY. I believe I told them it had been reported that we had an
FBI report that they had been able to trace that weapon where he had
ordered it from Chicago, and it had been picked up under the name of
Hidell and that the handwriting was the same on the order blank as
Oswald's.
Mr. RANKIN. Was this told to a news conference or over the TV?
Mr. CURRY. Well, the TV was there. It was not a news conference. I was
walking down the hall, and they surrounded me.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell them anything else about the evidence you had
against Oswald?
Mr. CURRY. I only told them I believed that we had some other evidence,
but I didn't tell them what it was.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever tell them any more about the evidence that you
had against Oswald?
Mr. CURRY. I don't believe so; I don't recall it.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever tell them about the evidence you had against
Oswald concerning the Tippit shooting?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I don't believe I made any comment.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know about when this was made, these statements were
made about the evidence?
Mr. CURRY. I believe this was on Friday, the 22d, during the late
evening.
Mr. RANKIN. Is it a common practice for you or someone for the police
department to tell about the evidence that you had?
Mr. CURRY. It wouldn't be an uncommon practice. There is no law against
it.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you often do it then?
Mr. CURRY. Well, I would say this was not really unusual. It might
be--this was an exceptional case; ordinarily I am not involved in
these investigations or in making statements, but this would not be an
unusual thing to say.
Mr. RANKIN. Someone from the police department often does it; is that
right?
Mr. CURRY. Well, frequently, if they are asked about it.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether it is possible to monitor conversations
between the prisoner and the visitor on the intercom?
Mr. CURRY. Not by intercom. It would be--they are brought into--when a
prisoner is brought in to visit with an attorney or a relative he is
placed on one side of a wall and the prisoner--I mean the visitor--on
the other side, but we don't have any means of recording this. They
talk through by telephone. There is a glass that separates them.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you monitor any conversations between Lee Oswald and
his brother Robert, or Lee Oswald and Marina at any time?
Mr. CURRY. I did not, and I don't know of any. We don't have any way of
doing it. I mean we have no setup for doing this.
Mr. RANKIN. You don't know of any that was done?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. RANKIN. In regard to arrangements, do you know the Texas law as to
how soon after an arrest an arraignment is required?
Mr. CURRY. Excuse me now; I am not an attorney.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mr. CURRY. It is my understanding that, so far in Texas, being brought
immediately before a magistrate would be during the normal course of
that court's business.