The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order.
Chief, we have asked you to come here this morning, you and some of
your officers, for the purpose of taking their testimony concerning the
matters surrounding the arrest and the death of Lee Oswald at the time
of the assassination of the President.
I think we will take the testimony of you, Captain Fritz, Lieutenant
Day, and Lieutenant Baker. I want to say to you, Chief, before I leave,
I will have to leave after an hour or so in order to sit on some cases
we are hearing in the Supreme Court but I want to say to you beforehand
that our staff was very much pleased with the cooperation that it
received from your people when they were down in Dallas, and from the
help that you personally gave to them, and made it very helpful, they
were very helpful, and we did need to have speed at that particular
time, because, as you know, we were obliged to wait until the Ruby
trial was over before we could come down there at all.
So, we appreciate the assistance that your people gave us throughout
that proceeding.
Now, would you please rise, Chief, and raise your right hand to be
sworn.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this
Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mr. CURRY. I do.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rankin, our Chief Counsel, will interrogate you,
Chief. Mr. Rankin, will you proceed?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes; Mr. Chief Justice. Chief Curry, you gave a deposition
for the Commission recently, did you not?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; I did, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. That was about April 15, 1964?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. And that was down in Dallas that you gave it?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. RANKIN. And Mr. Hubert examined you?
Mr. CURRY. That is true.
Mr. RANKIN. That was taken down by a court reporter?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you have anything to add to what you said at that time
or wish to correct it in any way?
Mr. CURRY. I can't recall of anything that I should correct or add to.
Mr. RANKIN. I ask you those questions in a general way, we will go back
to certain parts of that but I would like to proceed at this time in
view of the fact that the Chief Justice and possibly other members of
the Commission who will come may not be able to be here all the time
that you are being examined and I would like to get to certain crucial
matters if I may.
When did you learn of the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. CURRY. While I was out at Parkland Hospital.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know about what time that was, the day?
Mr. CURRY. It was on the 22d and the best I recall it was around 1
o'clock or maybe a little after 1 o'clock.
Mr. RANKIN. How did that come to your attention?
Mr. CURRY. Some of my officers came to me and said they had arrested a
suspect in the shooting of our Officer Tippit.
Mr. RANKIN. What else did they say?
Mr. CURRY. They also told me a little later, I believe, that he was a
suspect also in the assassination of the President.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you do then?
Mr. CURRY. I didn't do anything at the time. I was at the hospital, and
I remained at the hospital until some of the Secret Service asked me
to prepare two cars that we were informed that President Kennedy had
expired and we were requested to furnish two cars for President Johnson
and some of his staff to return to Love Field.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you do that?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; I did.
Mr. RANKIN. What else--what did you do after that?
Mr. CURRY. After the planes departed from Love Field, I was there for
the inauguration of the President, and then we left the plane, and
Judge Sarah Hughes and myself, and I remained at Love for some, I guess
perhaps an hour.
Mr. RANKIN. By inauguration, you mean the swearing in of the President?
Mr. CURRY. That is right, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. On the plane?
Mr. CURRY. On the plane; yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And then you left Love Field?
Mr. CURRY. I talked to Mayor Cabell and his wife for a little while and
after the plane left Love Field then I left Love Field.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you go with Judge Hughes or she go with you?
Mr. CURRY. No; she was in her own car.
Mr. RANKIN. I see.
Mr. CURRY. And I returned to the city hall.
Mr. DULLES. Did I understand correctly, how long were you at Love Field
after the plane of the President left?
Mr. CURRY. As I recall it was approximately an hour.
Mr. DULLES. That is what I thought.
Mr. CURRY. We waited there until the casket bearing the President, and
then the cars bearing Mrs. Kennedy arrived, and it was, I would judge
an hour perhaps.
Mr. RANKIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. CURRY. I returned to my office at city hall.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you do anything about Lee Harvey Oswald at that time?
Mr. CURRY. No. As I went into the city hall it was overrun with the
news media.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you do about that?
Mr. CURRY. I didn't do anything. They were jammed into the north hall
of the third floor, which are the offices of the criminal investigation
division. The television trucks, there were several of them around the
city hall. I went into my administrative offices, I saw cables coming
through the administrative assistant office and through the deputy
chief of traffic through his office, and running through the hall
they had a live TV set up on the third floor, and it was a bedlam of
confusion.
Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone of the police department give them permission to
do this?
Mr. CURRY. I noticed--well, I don't know who gave them permission
because I wasn't there. When I returned they were up there.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you inquire about whether permission had been given?
Mr. CURRY. No; I didn't. We had in the past had always permitted free
movement of the press around the city hall but we had never been faced
with anything like this before where we had national and international
news media descending upon us in this manner.
Mr. RANKIN. Could you describe to the Commission the difference this
time as compared with the ordinary case that you have handled?
Mr. CURRY. Well, the ordinary case, perhaps we have two or three or
maybe a half dozen reporters, we have a room for them on the third
floor where they normally on assignment at city hall they stay in this
room.
As prisoners are brought to and from the interrogation offices, it is
necessary to bring them down the main corridor, and they usually are
waiting there where they take pictures of them as they enter and as
they leave and they sometimes try to ask them questions.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, how was this different?
Mr. CURRY. That there was such total confusion here. We had to post men
on the door to keep them actually from going into the office where they
were interrogating. We had some men, police reserves and a sergeant, I
noticed on the third floor when I come off the elevator.
They were stationed there, and they were screening people to see
whether or not they had business on the third floor because we did have
to carry on our other normal business, the burglary and theft and the
juvenile bureau and the auto theft bureau, the forgery bureau all of
these are on the third floor in this wing.
The CHAIRMAN. Chief, is this building just a police building or a
municipal building, general purposes?
Mr. CURRY. It is a section of the municipal building.
The CHAIRMAN. A section of it. Is it isolated from the rest of it?
Mr. CURRY. No; it is connected.
The CHAIRMAN. Connected?
Mr. CURRY. Yes. And on the first floor we have the courts and the
traffic violations bureau.
In the basement it is principally police offices. On the second floor
we have the city planning commission, and we have part of our traffic
division and special service bureau on the second floor.
Then on the third floor we have the criminal investigation division.
We have the police dispatcher's office, and we have the administrative
offices and we have the personnel offices.
The CHAIRMAN. I see.
Mr. CURRY. But all these are connected with the municipal building,
each floor is.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have anything to do with the interrogation of Lee
Harvey Oswald?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I did not. I was in the office once or twice while
he was being interrogated but I never asked him any question myself.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who did?
Mr. CURRY. Captain Fritz principally interrogated him, I believe.
Mr. RANKIN. Was that his responsibility?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; it was. There were several people in the office. It
seems to me we were violating every principle of interrogation, the
method by which we had to interrogate.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you explain to the Commission what you mean by that?
Mr. CURRY. Ordinarily an interrogator in interrogating a suspect will
have him in a quiet room alone or perhaps with one person there.
Mr. RANKIN. Is that your regular practice?
Mr. CURRY. That is the regular practice.
Mr. RANKIN. Tell us how this was done?
Mr. CURRY. This we had representatives from the Secret Service, we had
representatives from the FBI, we had representatives from the Ranger
Force, and they were--and then one or two detectives from the homicide
bureau. This was, well, it was just against all principles of good
interrogation practice.
Mr. RANKIN. By representatives can you tell us how many were from each
of these agencies that you describe?
Mr. CURRY. I can't be sure. I recall I believe two from the FBI, one
or two, Inspector Kelley was there from Secret Service, and I believe
another one of his men was there. There was one, I recall seeing one
man from the Rangers. I don't recall who he was. I just remember now
that there was one.
Captain Fritz, and one or two of his detectives--this was in a small
office.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you do anything about this when you found out there
were so many, did you give any instructions about it?
Mr. CURRY. No; I didn't. This was an unusual case. In fact, I had
received a call from the FBI requesting that they have a representative
from there in the hearing room. And we were trying to cooperate with
all agencies concerned in this, and I called Captain Fritz and asked
him to permit a representative of the FBI to come in.
Mr. DULLES. Who was directing the interrogation, Captain Fritz?
Mr. CURRY. Captain Fritz.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know how Lee Harvey Oswald was treated by the police
department?
Mr. CURRY. So far as I know he was treated as any other prisoner is
treated. He was not handled in any manner any different from any other
prisoner. He had a scratch or two on his face which he received when he
was wrestling with the police over in this theater in Oak Cliff. Other
than that he had no marks on him.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever complain that you know of about his treatment
while he was there?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you give any instructions about the security or how he
should be protected during this time?
Mr. CURRY. No; I personally didn't. Deputy Chief Lumpkin, who has
charge of the service division which is the jail security, he told me
that he had ordered that two guards be placed on him right outside his
cell and kept there 24 hours a day as long as we had him.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what was done about that?
Mr CURRY. It was carried out. He told me that this was carried out.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any further difficulty with the media, the
various press and radio and television representatives during this time?
Mr. CURRY. Well, every time we would walk out of the office they would
besiege you with questions and wanting statements and asking what we
had found out, and did we think this was the right man, and they almost
ran over you.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you do about that?
Mr. CURRY. I tried to maintain some order. I didn't order them out of
the building, which if I had it to do over I would. In the past like I
say, we had always maintained very good relations with our press, and
they had always respected us, and this was something, the first time we
experienced anything like this, to this degree.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any tape recordings of the interviews with Mr.
Oswald?
Mr. CURRY. I do not have.
Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone?
Mr. CURRY. Not to my knowledge. Unless someone from the FBI or the
Secret Service, if they recorded it, I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. How many times was he interrogated, do you know?
Mr. CURRY. No; I do not know that.
Mr. RANKIN. You never examined him yourself at any time?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe the place where he was kept while he was
there in the jail?
Mr. CURRY. Well, it is in one of our maximum security cells, much
the same as any other jail. But he was isolated away from the other
prisoners, and there was two jail guards set immediately outside his
cell.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you isolate him or was that in accordance with your
instructions?
Mr. CURRY. No; this is customary with a prisoner of this type and Chief
Lumpkin in charge of the service division had issued these orders.
Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by maximum security in your prison?
Mr. CURRY. Well, we have some cells where they have cells that are
locked and then you come out of the cell into a corridor and that is
locked, and these are maintained from a master control box. That is a
maximum security cell. Some of the others they just have a lock on the
door and it opens out into the hallway.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you do anything about furnishing him clothing?
Mr. CURRY. We removed his clothing except for his underwear in order
that he couldn't harm himself. When he was removed from the cell, of
course, his clothes were given to him.
Mr. RANKIN. Was he allowed to shower and clean up.
Mr. CURRY. I don't think he ever asked for a shower while he was there.
Had he asked for one he would have been permitted to shower and he
would have been permitted to shave.
Mr. RANKIN. Was he treated any differently in any way that you know of
than other prisoners?
Mr. CURRY. Except perhaps a little more security placed on him, a
constant security. Ordinarily we wouldn't, except in unusual cases
would we have a constant surveillance on a prisoner, and this is
usually, if we felt like he might try to harm himself we would have
someone there to immediately prevent it.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question?
What was Oswald's attitude toward the police? Have you any comment on
that?
Mr. CURRY. The only things I heard him say, he was very arrogant. He
was very--he had a dislike for authority, it seemed, of anyone. He
denied anything you asked him. I heard them ask once or twice if this
was his picture or something, he said, "I don't know what you are
talking about. No; it is not my picture," and this was a picture of him
holding a rifle or something. I remember one time they showed him and
he denied that being him.
I remember he denied anything knowing anything about a man named Hidell
that he had this identification in his pocket or in his notebook, and
I believe a postal inspector was in this room at the time, too, and
someone asked him about the fact that he had a post office box in the
name of Hidell and he didn't know anything about that. He just didn't
know anything about anything.
Mr. RANKIN. Did it ever come to your attention that he ever asked for
or inquired about counsel?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; I heard him say something. I asked if he had had an
opportunity to use the phone and Captain Fritz told me they were giving
him an opportunity to use the phone.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about counsel?
Mr. CURRY. As I recall he said he wanted to try to get in touch with
John Abt.
Mr. RANKIN. A-b-t?
Mr. CURRY. A-b-t, I believe an attorney in New York, to handle his case
and then if he couldn't get him he said he wanted to get someone from
Civil Liberties Union.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you do about that?
Mr. CURRY. I told them to let him talk to them in an attempt to get his
attorney and in an attempt to get some of his relatives so they could
arrange for it.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe how it was handled for him to be able to
talk on the telephone?
Mr. CURRY. We take them from their cells and we have two telephones
that they are taken to, and they are put on these telephones and they
are locked in, and a guard stands by while they make their calls.
Mr. RANKIN. Is that call secret or is there any listening in on it?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; it is not supposed to be secret. I mean it is
supposed to be secret. It is privileged communication as far as we are
concerned, we don't have a tap on the phone or anything.
Mr. DULLES. Did he use this?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; he did.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether an attorney from Dallas was offered to
him and came to the jail?
Mr. CURRY. There were some members of the Civil Liberties Union came
to see us that night, and they said they were concerned with whether
or not he was being permitted legal counsel.
Mr. RANKIN. Did they talk to you?
Mr. CURRY. No; they didn't talk to me. They talked to Professor Webster.
Mr. RANKIN. How did this come to your attention?
Mr. CURRY. He told me.
Mr. RANKIN. I see. Now, tell us what he said.
Mr. CURRY. He said that they had come down to see whether or not he
was being permitted legal counsel, and Professor Webster is in the law
school out at Southern Methodist University and he told them he thought
he was being given an opportunity to get in touch with legal counsel,
and they seemed satisfied then about it. We also got Mr. Nichols.
Mr. RANKIN. Who is he?
Mr. CURRY. He was president of the Dallas Bar Association or criminal
bar. I don't know which, Louis Nichols, and----
Mr. RANKIN. What did he do?
Mr. CURRY. He came down, he said he had heard that he was not being
allowed the right to counsel, and they wanted to see and so I took him
myself up to Lee Harvey Oswald's cell and let him go in the cell and
talk to Lee Harvey Oswald.
The CHAIRMAN. Who was Mr. Nichols, did you say?