CONVERSATIONS WITH MR. SENIOR.

_St. Cyr, Tuesday, February_ 21, 1854.[1]--On the 20th I left Paris for

Le Trésorier, a country-house in the village of St. Cyr, near Tours,

which the Tocquevilles have been inhabiting for some months. It stands in

a large enclosure of about fifteen acres, of which about ten are orchard

and vineyard, and the remainder are occupied by the house, stables, and a

large garden. The house has a great deal of accommodation, and they pay

for it, imperfectly furnished, 3,000 francs a year, and keep up the

garden, which costs about 500 francs more, being one man at one and

a-half francs a day.

This is considered dear; but the sheltered position of the house, looking

south, and protected by a hill to the north-east, induced the

Tocquevilles to pay for it about 1,000 francs more than its market value.

I will throw together the conversations of February 22 and 23. They began

by my giving to him a general account of the opinions of my friends in

Paris.

'I believe,' said Tocqueville, 'that I should have found out many of your

interlocutors without your naming them. I am sure that I should Thiers,

Duvergier, Broglie, and Rivet; perhaps Faucher--certainly Cousin. I

translate into French what you make them say, and hear them speak. I

recognise Dumon and Lavergne, but I should not have discovered them. The

conversation of neither of them has the marked, peculiar flavour that

distinguishes that of the others. You must recollect, however, that some

of your friends knew, and most of the others must have suspected, that

you were taking notes. Thiers speaks evidently for the purpose of being

reported. To be sure that shows what are the opinions that men wish to be

supposed to entertain, and they often betray what they think that they

conceal. Still it must be admitted that you had not always the natural

man.' 'I am sorry,' he added, 'that you have not penetrated more into the

salons of the Legitimists. You have never got further than a Fusionist.

The Legitimists are not the Russians that Thiers describes them. Still

less do they desire to see Henri V. restored by foreign intervention.

They and their cause have suffered too bitterly for having committed

that crime, or that fault, for them to be capable of repeating it. They

are anti-national so far as not to rejoice in any victories obtained by

France under this man's guidance. But I cannot believe that they would

rejoice in her defeat. They have been so injured in their fortunes and

their influence, have been so long an oppressed caste--excluded from

power, and even from sympathy--that they have acquired the faults of

slaves--have become timid and frivolous, or bitter.

'They have ceased to be anxious about anything but to be let alone. But

they are a large, a rich, and comparatively well-educated body. Your

picture is incomplete without them, _et il sera toujours très-difficile

de gouverner sans eux._[2]

I quite agree,' he continued, 'with Thiers as to the necessity of this

war. Your interests may be more immediate and greater, but ours are very

great. When I say ours, I mean those of France as a country that is

resolved to enjoy constitutional government. I am not sure that if Russia

were to become mistress of the Continent she would not allow France to

continue a quasi-independent despotism under her protectorate. But she

will never willingly allow us to lie powerful and free.

'I sympathise, too, with Thiers's fears as to the result. I do not

believe that Napoleon himself, with all his energy, and all his

diligence, and all his intelligence, would have thought it possible to

conduct a great war to which his Minister of War was opposed. A man who

has no heart in his business will neglect it, or do it imperfectly. His

first step would have been to dismiss St.-Arnaud. Then, look at the other

two on whose skill and energy we have to depend. One is Ducos, Minister

of Marine, a man of mere commonplace talents and character. The other is

Binneau, Minister of Finance, somewhat inferior to Ducos. Binneau ought

to provide resources. He ought to check the preposterous waste of the

Court. He has not intelligence enough to do the one, or courage enough to

attempt the other. The real Prime Minister is without doubt Louis

Napoleon himself. But he is not a man of business. He does not understand

details. He may order certain things to be done, but he will not be able

to ascertain whether the proper means have been taken. He does not know

indeed what these means are. He does not trust those who do. A war which

would have tasked all the powers of Napoleon, and of Napoleon's Ministers

and generals, is to be carried on without any master-mind to direct it,

or any good instruments to execute it. I fear some great disaster.

'Such a disaster might throw,' he continued, 'this man from the eminence

on which he is balanced, not rooted. It might produce a popular outbreak,

of which the anarchical party might take advantage. Or, what is perhaps

more to be feared, it might frighten Louis Napoleon into a change of

policy. He is quite capable of turning short round--giving up

everything--key of the Grotto, protectorate of the orthodox, even the

Dardanelles and the Bosphorus--to Nicholas, and asking to be repaid by

the Rhine.

'I cannot escape from the _cauchemar_ that a couple of years hence France

and England may be at war. Nicholas's expectations have been deceived,

but his plan was not unskilfully laid. He had a fair right to conjecture

that you would think the dangers of this alliance such as to be even

greater than those of allowing him to obtain his protectorate.

'In deciding otherwise, you have taken the brave and the magnanimous

course. I hope that it may prove the successful one.

'I am sorry,' continued Tocqueville, 'to see the language of your

newspapers as to the fusion. I did not choose to take part in it. I hate

to have anything to do with pretenders. But as a mere measure of

precaution it is a wise one. It decides what shall be the conduct of the

Royalist party in the event--not an improbable one--of France being

suddenly left without a ruler.

'Your unmeasured praise of Louis Napoleon and your unmeasured abuse of

the Bourbons are, to a certain degree, the interference in our politics

which you professedly disclaim. I admit the anti-English prejudices

of the Bourbons, and I admit that they are not likely to be abated by

your alliance with a Bonaparte. But the opinions of a constitutional

sovereign do not, like those of a despot, decide the conduct of his

country. The country is anxious for peace, and, above all, peace with

you--for more than peace, for mutual good-feeling. The Bourbons cannot

return except with a constitution. It has become the tradition of the

family, it is their title to the throne. There is not a _vieille

marquise_ in the Faubourg St.-Germain who believes in divine right.

'The higher classes in France are Bourbonists because they are

Constitutionalists, because they believe that constitutional monarchy is

the government best suited to France, and that the Bourbons offer us the

fairest chance of it.

'Among the middle classes there is without doubt much inclination for the

social equality of a Republic. But they are alarmed at its instability;

they have never known one live for more than a year or two, or die except

in convulsions.

'As for the lower classes, the country people think little about

politics, the sensible portion of the artizans care about nothing but

cheap and regular work; the others are Socialists, and, next to the

government of a Rouge Assembly, wish for that of a Rouge despot.'

'In London,' I said, 'a few weeks ago I came across a French Socialist,

not indeed of the lower orders--for he was a Professor of

Mathematics--but participating in their feelings. "I prefer," he said, "a

Bonaparte to a Bourbon--a Bonaparte must rely on the people, one can

always get something out of him." "What have you got," I asked, "from

this man?" "A great deal," he answered. "We got the Orleans

confiscation--that was a great step. _Il portait attente à la propriété_.

Then he represents the power and majesty of the people. He is like the

people, above all law. _Les Bourbons nous chicanaient._"'

'That was the true faith of a Rouge,' said Tocqueville 'If this man,' he

added, 'had any self-control, if he would allow us a very moderate degree

of liberty, he might enjoy a reign--probably found a dynasty. He had

everything in his favour; the prestige of his name, the acquiescence of

Europe, the dread of the Socialists, and the contempt felt for the

Republicans. We were tired of Louis Philippe. We remembered the _branche

aînée_ only to dislike it, and the Assembly only to despise it. We never

shall be loyal subjects, but we might have been discontented ones, with

as much moderation as is in our nature.'

'What is the _nuance_,' I said, 'of G----?'

'G----,' answered Tocqueville, 'is an honest man, uncorrupt and

public-spirited; he is a clear, logical, but bitter speaker; his words

fall from the tribune like drops of gall. He has great perspicacity, but

rather a narrow range. His vision is neither distant nor comprehensive.

He wears a pair of blinkers, which allow him to see only what he looks

straight at--and that is the English Constitution. For what is to the

right and to the left he has no eyes, and unhappily what is to the right

and to the left is France.

'Then he has a strong will, perfect self-reliance, and the most restless

activity. All these qualities give him great influence. He led the

_centre gauche_ into most of its errors. H---- used to say, "If you

want to know what I shall do, ask G----."

'Among the secondary causes of February 1848 he stands prominent. He

planned the banquets. Such demonstrations are safe in England. He

inferred, according to his usual mode of reasoning, that they would not

be dangerous in France. He forgot that in England there is an aristocracy

that leads, and even controls, the people.

'I am alarmed,' he continued, 'by your Reform Bill. Your new six-pound

franchise must, I suppose, double the constituencies; it is a further

step to universal suffrage, the most fatal and the least remediable of

institutions.[3]

'While you preserve your aristocracy, you will preserve your freedom; if

that goes, you will fall into the worst of tyrannies, that of a despot,

appointed and controlled, so far as he is controlled at all, by a

mob.'[4]

Madame de Tocqueville asked me if I had seen the Empress.

'No,' I said, 'but Mrs. Senior has, and thinks her beautiful.'

'She is much more so,' said Madame de Tocqueville, 'than her portraits.

Her face in perfect repose gets long, and there is a little drooping

about the corners of the mouth. This has a bad effect when she is

serious, as everyone is when sitting for a picture, but disappears as

soon as she speaks. I remember dining in company with her at the

President's--I sat next to him--she was nearly opposite, and close to her

a lady who was much admired. I said to the President, looking towards

Mademoiselle de Montigo, "Really I think that she is far the prettier of

the two." He gazed at her for an instant, and said, "I quite agree with

you; she is charming." It may be a _bon ménage_'

'To come back,' I said, 'to our Eastern question. What is Baraguay

d'Hilliers?'

'A _brouillon_,' said Tocqueville. 'He is the most impracticable man in

France. His vanity, his ill-temper, and his jealousy make him quarrel

with everybody with whom he comes in contact. In the interest of our

alliance you should get him recalled.'

'What sort of man,' I asked, 'shall I find General Randon?'

'Very intelligent,' said Tocqueville. 'He was to have had the command of

the Roman army when Oudinot gave it up; but, just as he was going, it was

discovered that he was a Protestant. He was not so accommodating as one

of our generals during the Restoration. He also was a Protestant. The Duc

d'Angoulême one day said to him, "Vous êtes protestant, général?" The

poor man answered in some alarm, for he knew the Duke's

ultra-Catholicism, "Tout ce que vous voulez, monseigneur."'

[Footnote 1: My conversations with M. de Tocqueville during this visit

were written out after my return from Paris and sent to him. He returned

them with the remarks which I have inserted.--N.W. SENIOR.]

[Footnote 2: Le portrait va plus loin que ma pensée.--_A. de

Tocqueville_. The picture expresses more than my idea.]

[Footnote 3: Cela va plus loin que ma pensée. Je crois que le vote

universel peut se concilier avec d'autres institutions, qui diminuerait

le danger.--_A. de Tocqueville._

This goes farther than my idea. I think that universal suffrage may be

combined with other institutions, which would diminish the danger.]

[Footnote 4: Cela aussi va plus loin que ma pensée. Je crois

très-désirable le maintien des institutions aristocratiques en

Angleterre. Mais je suis loín de dire que leur abolition mènerait

nécessairement au despotisme, surtout si elles s'affaiblissaient peu à

peu et n'étaient pas renversées par une révolution.--_A. de Tocqueville_.

This also goes farther than my idea. I think the maintenance in England

of aristocratic institutions very desirable. But I am far from saying

that their abolition would necessarily lead to despotism, especially if

their power were diminished gradually and without the shock of a

revolution.]

_To N.W. Senior, Esq._

St. Cyr, March 18, 1854.

Your letter was a real joy to us, my dear Senior. As you consent to be

ill lodged, we offer to you with all our hearts the bachelor's room which

you saw. You will find there only a bed, without curtains, and some very

shabby furniture. But you will find hosts who will be charmed to have you

and your MSS. I beg you not to forget the latter.

My wife, as housekeeper, desires me to give you an important piece of

advice. In the provinces, especially during Lent, it is difficult to get

good meat on Fridays and Saturdays, and though you are a great sinner,

she has no wish to force you to do penance, especially against your will,

as that would take away all the merit. She advises you, therefore, to

arrange to spend with us Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and

Thursday, and to avoid Friday and Saturday, and especially the whole of

the Holy Week.

Now you are provided with the necessary instructions. Choose your own

day, and give us twenty-four hours' warning.

Correspondence & Conversations of Alexis de Tocqueville with Nassau William Senior from 1834 to 1859, Volume 2 · 第 28 / 83 题