Mrs. PAINE. There was a fan in it for a while--is there now?
Agent HOWLETT. There's an edge of a fan sticking out.
Mrs. PAINE. It has been more recently moved over.
Agent HOWLETT. It's actually 1 foot 9 inches.
Mr. JENNER. Rather than 2 feet by 2 feet. Was that fan in place in the
fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection it was--yes.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, however, that that fan is a movable fan?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Which you can push up and slide over easily?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Are you able to do it yourself?
Mrs. PAINE. I never have.
Mr. JENNER. So, you don't know its heft or weight?
Mrs. PAINE. I can lift it from the floor, I know that about it, but I
have never tried to lift it with my arms up.
Mr. JENNER. And is it a fan made for that particular spacing?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Or, is it really a floor fan that you sometimes use in your
home itself and then sometimes place over that opening to draw the heat
out, I guess it would be, wouldn't it?
Mrs. PAINE. It's a portable fan.
Mr. JENNER. It's a portable fan, and is it your recollection that on
the morning of the 22d of November that fan straddled the opening in
the ceiling?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection one way or the other?
Mrs. PAINE. None.
Mr. JENNER. Since it is portable, it might have been moved back and,
if moved back, the blanket wrapped package could have been stored up
there, correct?
Mrs. PAINE. It could have been.
Mr. JENNER. Did you enter that crawl space at any time in the fall of
1963?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. And, in particular, did you examine it on the afternoon of
the 22d or any time on the 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. When the police came here on the afternoon of November 22,
did they climb up and look in the crawl space above the ceiling of your
house?
Mrs. PAINE. I did not see anyone do that.
Mr. JENNER. I am only asking while you were present--while you were
present, did the police look in the storage room we have now described?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection they did.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the length of the garage extends from the Fifth Street
side back to your dining room area, does it not?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And the width of the garage runs from the wall of the
living room to the wall of the house on the west?
Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please go out in the garage and in our
presence put your foot in the spot--and the two places--that you
noticed the blanket wrapped package, as you testified last week?
Mrs. PAINE. All right.
(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, complied with the request of
Counsel Jenner.)
The blanket was lying approximately here from about here--in front of
the work bench, halfway to the band saw.
Mr. JENNER. Will you listen to me please: We are approximately in the
center of the lengthwise plane of the garage and there is on the west
wall a work bench. On the work bench is a drill, a South Bend drill,
a heavy industrial type drill, with a number of packages, and then
underneath the work bench is a small desk--is that a child's desk?
Mrs. PAINE. No; a student desk.
Mr. JENNER. And in the knee hole in the center of that desk on the left
and right of which are sets of two drawers is what; what is that?
Mrs. PAINE. That's an ice chest.
Mr. JENNER. Was that ice chest there on the 22d of November?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is the desk underneath the work bench and is the work bench
also--are all these things now in the position they were on November
22d?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And, are they in the position they were substantially from
October 4, 1963, to and including November 22, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. They are in the same position.
Mr. JENNER. The work bench I have described is at its top 8 feet 1 inch
in length and 2 feet 3 inches wide or deep, extending out from the west
wall into the garage. It's a good substantial work bench, though it is
piled high with various boxes and cartons. Is the top of the work bench
in approximately the same condition now as it was on November 22, 1963,
Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. A little fuller.
Mr. JENNER. And is it in approximately, in that respect, the condition
it was from October 4, 1963, to and including November 22, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I will now measure the distance east and west from the
outside leading edge of the work bench to the east wall of the garage.
Agent HOWLETT. It's 7 feet 9 inches.
Mr. JENNER. The south edge of the work bench is 8 feet 5 inches from
the inner side of the overhead garage door, which is now in place.
There is a band saw to the south of the work bench also against the
west wall of the garage. It stands--it looks like a pretty solid piece
of equipment and it stands 5 feet 7 inches high from the floor and the
band saw, Mrs. Paine, is a solid piece of equipment--metal, that is,
resting on the garage floor itself, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. And it is, John Joe, how wide a space?
Agent HOWLETT. One foot five inches.
Mr. JENNER. It's a powermatic band saw that has an identification plate
"Machinery Sales" and the like on it.
The distance from the south edge of the bench to the north edge of the
band saw is what, John Joe?
Agent HOWLETT. Two feet eight inches.
Mr. JENNER. Would you measure off 45 inches on that--we have taken a
piece of corrugated box board, measured off 45 inches in length, and
I will ask Mrs. Paine to take that piece of corrugated box board and
place it in the position in which the blanket-wrapped package was.
Mrs. PAINE. That's it.
(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, complied with the request of
Counsel Jenner.)
Mr. JENNER. Now, may I describe for the record, Mrs. Paine has placed
that 45-inch corrugated box board in the position she recalls it was
when you first saw it, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. No; that's the second time--it's where it was on November
22.
Mr. JENNER. This is where it was on November 22d and one end is how
many inches from the base of the band saw, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT. It's 8 feet from the base of the band saw.
Mr. JENNER. Is that correct, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. As I recall--yes.
Mr. JENNER. And, it extends in a northerly direction 45 inches and
ends up how many inches north of the south edge of the work bench, Mr.
Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT. One foot eight inches.
Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Paine has placed that, is that correct, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I'm not sure but it wasn't somewhat more to the north.
My recollection is not that clear.
Mr. JENNER. But have you placed it approximately as you can best
recall, and that is all we can ask you to do now?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. How many inches is it out from Mr. Howlett, the front of
the desk underneath the work bench?
Agent HOWLETT. The center of it is about 3-1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER. Don't get the center, because the package was wider than
that piece is.
Mrs. PAINE. I'll place it where--where the outside edge is--where the
outside edge of the package was.
Agent HOWLETT. The inside edge?
Mr. JENNER. Which do you say is inside?
Mrs. PAINE. Let me take more packages--I'm trying to refresh my memory
as to where this was. I do recall standing on it, and whether it was
when I stood here or here?
Mr. JENNER. When she says, "Here," she is standing, are you not, Mrs.
Paine, facing north with your hand on the southeast corner of the work
bench?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you are standing rather near to the work bench?
Mrs. PAINE. I'm trying to recall where I saw it on the 22d, but anyway,
that would be the width of the package between those two boards.
Mr. JENNER. What is the distance from the bottom of the desk underneath
the work bench to the nearest edge of the package?
Agent HOWLETT. Four and one-half inches.
Mr. JENNER. And the distance from the bottom of the desk to the outside
edge, or most easterly edge of the package?
Agent HOWLETT. One foot two and one-half inches.
Mr. JENNER. Now, did I ask you, and I just want to make certain, when
was it that you observed the blanket-wrapped package on the floor the
second time?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I recall the package was on the floor on the 22d, and
that it was not the first time I had seen it there, but I cannot answer
just when I first saw it in that position--I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Your testimony was, as I recall, that to the best of your
recollection the blanket-wrapped package occurred in two places in the
garage.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When you noticed it at any time from the 4th of October to
and including the 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you have now located it as where you saw it--it will be
better for you to tell us where it was located when you first noticed
it.
Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is--I first noticed it somewhere in
the vicinity of the rotary saw.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we have a rotary saw which is pushed up against the
east wall of the garage and is located really, on that wall, but
between the south edge of the work bench and the north edge of the band
saw; am I correct about that?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And it is a Craftsman saw--it is also a substantial piece
of equipment. The saw plane or table is how long?
Agent HOWLETT. Three feet four inches.
Mr. JENNER. And how wide?
Agent HOWLETT. One foot nine and one-half inches.
Mr. JENNER. And that stands how many feet from the wall, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT. The saw table is 3 feet 2-1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER. And the distance from the floor to the top of the saw
itself, that is, all of the saw instrument itself?
Agent HOWLETT. It is 4 feet 7 inches.
Mr. JENNER. And what is the distance of extension of the saw table,
measuring from the east wall of the garage to the westerly most portion
of the saw table?
Agent HOWLETT. It is 2 feet 7-1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER. Have I located that saw, Mrs. Paine, in your presence so
that the locations I have given are as you have observed accurate?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The south edge of the saw table is how many feet and
inches, Mr. Howlett, from the inside facing of the overhead garage
door, which is down in place?
Agent HOWLETT. It is 5 feet 6 inches.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, would you please locate--take the 45-inch
package and relocate it where you first saw it?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't think there is any point in my doing that--I can't
remember whether it went east or west or north or south.
Mr. JENNER. Well, regardless of how it was facing, whether east or west
or north or south, where was it when you saw it?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I can recall distinctly that the area between the saw
table and the two chests of drawers was filled with boxes of belongings
of things that belonged to Lee and Marina Oswald. The package was
either under the saw table or out in front of those boxes some way.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I will locate the things you have described.
The saw table, the height of which has been stated into the record, is
suspended from the floor by 2 by 4 braces, which angle from the east
wall of the garage up to the underside west end of the circular saw
table, and except for those two braces running up from the floor and
the saw to the underside of the circular saw table, there is nothing
underneath there.
Was that the condition in which that space was when you noticed the
package on the floor earlier--the first time?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection it was for the most part--it
was.
Mr. JENNER. The witness has mentioned two--what do you call those?
Mrs. PAINE. Chest of drawers.
Mr. JENNER. They are located 1 foot 6 inches south of the south edge of
the saw table. They are themselves how wide?
Agent HOWLETT. Two feet one inch.
Mr. JENNER. They are 2 feet 1 inch wide and extend out from the joist
of the garage wall on the east garage wall how many feet, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT. Two feet five inches.
Mr. JENNER. The south edge of the set of chests, did you say these were?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The south edge of the set of chest of drawers is 2 feet
1 inch to the inside portion of the overhead garage door, which is
in place. Now, would you with that description again state where the
package was when you first saw it, first was the space you said was
filled with the goods and wares of the Oswalds located in the space
between the south edge of the saw table and the north edge of the chest
of drawers?
Mrs. PAINE. With some overlapping of the area of the saw table.
Mr. JENNER. With that in mind, tell us where the blanket-wrapped
package was.
Mrs. PAINE. I do not have a distinct recollection of where it lay on
the floor.
Mr. JENNER. Locate it the best you can.
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection it was partially under the
saw table or out towards the front of their boxes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see the blanket-wrapped package upended in
your garage?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. I notice a ball of string which I have just taken from a
box, which is on the surface of the work bench.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You have testified that the blanket-wrapped package was in
turn tied or wrapped with string?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You think perhaps, around in four places?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was the string of the weight and character of that which I
have in my hand, that is, this ball of string?
Mrs. PAINE. It could have been that weight or it could have been as
heavy as this other short piece that's on the floor.
Mr. JENNER. The short piece which Mrs. Paine has picked up and has
exhibited to me, we will mark "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 270," and we will
cut a piece of the other twine or string and mark that as "Ruth Paine
Exhibit No. 271."
(Materials referred to marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibits
Nos. 270 and 271," for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, Mrs. Paine, and John Joe,
Exhibit No. 271 is the lighter and thinner of the two pieces of string
which the witness has identified, is it not?
Agent HOWLETT. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. I will state, and will everybody agree with me or disagree
with me, if I misstate the facts that it would be utterly impossible to
get an automobile into this garage in the condition that it is now, is
that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. It would be utterly impossible.
Mr. JENNER. And, is its condition now in that sense substantially the
same as it was on October 4 and from thence forward through November
22, 1963, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Now, as I understand it, Mrs. Paine, you, Marina, and the
policeman came out into this garage on the afternoon of November 22?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right?
Mr. JENNER. Did you lead the procession into the garage, or did Marina,
or someone with the policeman?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall saying that most of the Oswalds' things were in
the garage, and I don't recall whether it was a policeman or myself who
first entered. I would guess it had been myself.
Mr. JENNER. Had there been some conversation before you entered the
garage on the subject of whether Lee Oswald had a rifle and was there a
rifle located in the home?
Mrs. PAINE. There was no such discussion before we entered the garage.
Mr. JENNER. What was the purpose of your entering the garage on that
occasion and the circumstance as to why you entered the garage with the
police, and I take it Marina was with you, was she?
Mrs. PAINE. Marina followed. They had asked to search--I told them that
most of the Oswalds' things were in the garage and some were in the
room where Marina was staying.
Mr. JENNER. Now, trying to reconstruct this situation and to stimulate
your recollection, would you walk into the garage and tell us as you
walk in, what occurred and when the first conversation took place, if
any took place, about a weapon in the premises? Would you start back
here at the garage entrance?
(At this point the witness complied with the request of Counsel Jenner,
entering the garage.)
Mr. JENNER. I take it, Mrs. Paine, you and Marina, and how many
policemen were there?
Mrs. PAINE. Two or three.
Mr. JENNER. Two or three policemen walked into your garage?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And for what purpose?
Mrs. PAINE. To see what was in it.
Mr. JENNER. Well, for you to point out to them where the Oswald things
were in your garage?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you entered then and walked east toward the overhead
garage door?
Mrs. PAINE. That's south instead of east.
Mr. JENNER. That's south, I'm sorry; you are right.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was that garage door in place on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was.
Mr. JENNER. The four or five of you, depending on how many policemen
there were, walked to the place that you have now heretofore described
to us as where the Oswalds' things were located in the main part,
however, the blanket wrapped package was not at that----
Mrs. PAINE [interrupting]. We didn't get as far as the area where most
of the Oswald things were located.
Mr. JENNER. All right. You got about what--halfway into the garage
facing south?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Then, what happened?
Mrs. PAINE. Then, one of the officers asked me if Lee Oswald had a
rifle or weapon, and I said, "No."
Mr. JENNER. This was in the presence of Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you were then--at that point you were standing where?
Mrs. PAINE. I was at that time standing here [indicating].
Mr. JENNER. And would you remain there--Mrs. Paine is now standing at
the corner of the--southeast corner of the work bench about a foot away
from the work bench; is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Go ahead.
Mrs. PAINE. The officer asked me if Oswald had a rifle and I answered,
"No," to him and he turned to Marina who was standing at the----
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you move to where Marina was standing?