The testimony of Ruth Hyde Paine was taken at 7:30 p.m., on March 23,
1964, at 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex., home of deponent by Mr.
Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. JENNER. Let the record show that this is a resumption of the
deposition of Mrs. Ruth Avery Hyde Paine, who appeared before the
Commission last week and whose supplemental deposition I took on
Saturday.
Since we are in a different jurisdiction now, Mrs. Paine, may I swear
you?
Mrs. PAINE. You may affirm me.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Do you affirm that the testimony that you are
about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth?
Mrs. PAINE. To the very best of my ability, I do so affirm.
Mr. JENNER. Present at the taking of this deposition is John Joe
Howlett, H-o-w-l-e-t-t [spelling] of the U.S. Secret Service.
We are at the moment in the dining room-kitchen area of Mrs. Paine's
home; is that correct, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Howlett and I have measured the rooms in the
presence of Mrs. Paine. The dining room-kitchen area is open. It's
full length from wall to wall is 25 feet and 4 inches in length and 12
feet, 4 inches in width. The distance from the west wall of the dining
room-kitchen area to the outside wall of the bedroom on the northeast
corner is 31 feet, 2 inches. That particular bedroom in the northeast
corner is 12 feet by 12 feet, 1 inch. The southeast corner of the house
consists of a bedroom directly to the south of the first bedroom I have
just described and it is 12 feet, 1 inch by 10 feet, 9 inches. That
particular bedroom opens by window, a large picture window onto West
Fifth Street. The northeast bedroom has two windows, one on the north
wall and one on the east wall. These are unlike the southeast bedroom
in that neither of these windows is a picture window.
Mrs. PAINE. The southeast bedroom also has two windows and the picture
window, I think, gives a slightly larger impression than I have of
it--it's around 43 inches wide.
Mr. JENNER. Shall we measure it, then?
(At this point Counsel Jenner and Agent Howlett took the measurements
discussed.)
Mr. JENNER. The picture window facing on Fifth Street is--why don't you
recite it, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT. Three feet, three inches and four feet, eight inches
high.
Mr. JENNER. Three feet, three inches wide and four feet, eight inches
high?
Agent HOWLETT. Right.
Mrs. PAINE. That's not very wide is it--39 inches?
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, would you be good enough to go outside at the
curb and stand at the place at which the FBI agent's automobile was on,
as I recall your testimony, November 5, 1963, so that we can observe
you through the picture window we have just mentioned and read it in
the evidence?
Mrs. PAINE. I'll do my best.
(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, left the house and proceeded to
comply with the request of Counsel Jenner and Counsel Jenner stationed
himself in the bedroom referred to before the window.)
Mr. JENNER. Back on the record. Mrs. Paine, I have asked you to locate
as near as you can, to the best of your recollection, the position of
the FBI agent's automobile where he parked on November 5, 1962, when he
made his second visit to you, and have you done so?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection I have to say to you that I
cannot be absolutely certain that the blue Oldsmobile was in front of
my house on that day. I don't remember for certainty. If my husband's
other car was being fixed, it was not in front of the house but that
should be easily determined by asking the repair shop.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you afford me your best recollection, however,
at the moment?
Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that it was on the street. You now
see Mr. Howlett's car.
Mr. JENNER. I will describe that and you listen to me as I describe it.
I am now in the southeast bedroom of Mrs. Paine's home, looking out the
picture window facing onto Fifth Avenue.
Mrs. PAINE. Street.
Mr. JENNER. On Fifth Street.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And I see two automobiles; first, there is a large--what is
that, an elm or oak?
Mrs. PAINE. It is an oak.
Mr. JENNER. An oak tree--I would say about 26 inches through, which is
in the center of the lawn in front of the house. We will measure it,
John Joe, and the lawn in due course, but the Secret Service automobile
is now parked at the curb on the northeast street, which is the curb
at the Paine home and directly in front of which is the blue and
cream-colored automobile. Is that a four-door or two-door?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know--I guess it is a two-door.
Mr. JENNER. It is a two-tone, two-colored car, blue body and a
cream-colored trim, which extends across the hood. The front bumper of
Agent Howlett's automobile is just about touching the rear bumper of
the automobile. The two cars together, or the combined length spans
substantially all of the space between the driveway on the left, which
is, I take it, the driveway to the Roberts' home.
Mrs. PAINE. No; they are on the other side of the street. It's a home
that's not now used.
Mr. JENNER. The house is not occupied--that home?
Mrs. PAINE. It has not been occupied for over a year.
Mr. JENNER. That home that I am talking about is the home to the east,
and as the witness has stated, it has not been occupied for a year.
It was unoccupied, then, during the time that Marina stayed with you
last fall?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And the front end or front bumper of the blue and cream
automobile is just a few feet east of the automobile drive over on the
west side of the Paine premises?
Mrs. PAINE. I would like to put my children to bed now.
Mr. JENNER. Could you wait just 1 second? I wish John Joe would check
me on this standing where I am, looking out this window.
It is impossible--at least impossible to see any license plate on
either of the two automobiles parked at the curb I have described.
Agent HOWLETT. Yes; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And, you are shining your searchlight on both automobiles?
Agent HOWLETT. I am shining a flashlight on the front and rear of both
automobiles and you cannot even see the license plate, much less any of
the numbers.
Mr. JENNER. You can't even see whether there are license plates, let
alone make out the numbers?
Agent HOWLETT. That's correct, you can't even see the numbers.
Mr. JENNER. All right, we will suspend for your convenience now.
(At this point Counsel Jenner, Agent Howlett, and Mrs. Paine, as
well as the court reporter, left the area of the bedroom heretofore
mentioned from which window the examination was being made of premises
outside the window, Mrs. Paine proceeding to care for her children
and Counsel Jenner, Agent Howlett and the court reporter returning to
the dining room-kitchen area where the deposition is primarily being
conducted. Shortly thereafter Mrs. Paine returned to the area of the
taking of the deposition and proceedings of same continued as follows:)
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you were present when I described the view or
described my observations looking through the picture window first on
Fifth Street?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And, was I accurate in my description of the lot area and
the automobiles parked in front and what could be seen and what could
not be seen in the way of a license plate?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; you were accurate.
Mr. JENNER. On the 5th day of November did an agent of the FBI come for
a second time to interview you?
Mrs. PAINE. I didn't recall the day, but I have been told it was that
day--yes.
Mr. JENNER. While you do recall that it was 4 or 5 days after the 1st
of November?
Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. What time of day was it, or night, if it was night?
Mrs. PAINE. I'm trying to think what else was going on.
Mr. JENNER. Go ahead.
Mrs. PAINE. My best estimate--it was afternoon.
Mr. JENNER. I'll ask you this, it was during the daytime?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was during the day.
Mr. JENNER. What is your recollection as to the state of the weather?
Mrs. PAINE. It was a fair day, and I think it was afternoon, but I'm
not sure--absolutely certain of that.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, was it Agent Hosty?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was. He had someone else with him that time.
Mr. JENNER. And did the other FBI agent come in with Agent Hosty?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, just barely across the threshold.
Mr. JENNER. Did either of these gentlemen give you the license number
of the automobile which they had parked in front of your home?
Mrs. PAINE. No; they did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ascertain that license number?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you make any attempt to do so?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I made no attempt to.
Mr. JENNER. Was Marina Oswald in your home on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. She was in my home.
Mr. JENNER. When they arrived, where was she in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. When they arrived, she was in the front bedroom.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said during the whole course of their presence
and even afterward by her, which indicated or led you to believe or by
implication or otherwise, that she had observed the license number on
the FBI automobile?
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing was said that might indicate that.
Mr. JENNER. Or any implication or anything from what you might have
drawn an inference, that she had paid attention to a license number?
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing at all.
Mr. JENNER. Did a discussion occur during that conference or interview
in which Agent Hosty made reference to the parking of his automobile on
the occasion of November 1 when he had interviewed you?
Mrs. PAINE. This is entirely possible. I recall distinctly that I
noticed that they were parked down the street or he was parked down the
street on the first interview, and it seems to me----
Mr. JENNER. You had noticed that at the time?
Mrs. PAINE. I had noticed that.
Mr. JENNER. And how did that come to your attention?
Mrs. PAINE. I think Mr. Hosty may have brought it up, brought it up to
his having talked to my neighbor a previous time. He made the point
that he tried not to be too obvious or upset the neighbors by their
visits.
Mr. JENNER. And having that delicacy in mind, he had parked the car
down the street?
Mrs. PAINE. The first time.
Mr. JENNER. The neighbor to whom you refer is Mrs. Roberts?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And her home is next door to the west?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right--2519.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we have used the general term "down the street;" which
way was "down the street," to the west or to the east?
Mrs. PAINE. How did we use the term?
Mr. JENNER. You said he said he parked down the street.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall exactly whether it was down--my best
recollection is that he was parked in front of the house that the
Ponders used to live in.
Mr. JENNER. The whom?
Mrs. PAINE. The Ponders.
Mr. JENNER. P-o-n-d-e-r-s [spelling]?
Mrs. PAINE. P-o-n-d-e-r-s [spelling]--Ponder is the name, but it is the
brick house on the southwest corner of Fifth Street and----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, that's east.
Mrs. PAINE. The southwest corner of the crossing of Fifth Street and
whatever it is--you know, Westbrook.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the crossroad?
Mrs. PAINE. In other words--yes--it's directly diagonal from the
Randles.
Mr. JENNER. Is it southeast and at a diagonal across the street from
your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; or, it may have been down the street farther the other
way, or I may be confused with what Mrs. Roberts told me about where he
parked when he first came to talk with her.
Mr. JENNER. Let me ask you: Did you see his car, his automobile on that
day--November 1st?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe I did--yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you watch him leave the premises and just watch the two
men drive away?
Mrs. PAINE. There was only one the first time.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I can't recall. But I would think it likely that I
did.
Mr. JENNER. Where was Marina on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. She was in the living room with me.
Mr. JENNER. Was she beside you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were you both looking out the window?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best I can recall.
Mr. JENNER. And had you so desired, could you have seen the license
plate on Agent Hosty's automobile on that occasion, to wit, November
1st?
Mrs. PAINE. Not with 20-40 vision.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have 20-40 vision?
Mrs. PAINE. It's 20-40 or 20-50--I forget.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion as to whether the license plate
could have been seen with 20-20 vision?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't have an opinion.
Mr. JENNER. Did Agent Hosty pass in front of your house?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall at all.
Mr. JENNER. Now, facing as you are, onto Fifth Street, do you have that
recollection now as to whether the FBI automobile passed when Mr. Hosty
left and drove away, did it pass in front of your house?
Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that I had already taken my
attention elsewhere, that I didn't try to notice, and certainly I did
not notice whether he passed in front of the house.
Mr. JENNER. At any rate, you did not look at the license plate?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. And seek to ascertain the number?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Marina did?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether she could have?
Mrs. PAINE. That's possible--she might have if one can see that with
normal vision.
Mr. JENNER. So that on the November 1st date, you are unable to fix
definitely whether she did or didn't, or could or could not have seen
the license plate and the number of Agent Hosty's automobile?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Would you give us your best judgment in the premises as to
whether she did--you had some feeling of her presence on that day, have
you not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I certainly didn't see her write anything down.
Mr. JENNER. And what was your impression, if you had any?
Mrs. PAINE. I have none.
Mr. JENNER. You just weren't thinking of license plates at all?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I wasn't.
Mr. JENNER. Were you thinking of them on the fifth?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I wasn't.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, the automobile of Agent Hosty was parked, as
you say, down the street and some few houses, at least a number of feet
away from your home on the first, whereas, he parked it in front of
your home as we have now noted on the fifth.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I notice you have a bathtub shower?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was Lee Oswald in the habit of taking a shower?
Mrs. PAINE. He often took a shower when he arrived home from work on
Friday, when he arrived here from work on a Friday afternoon and before
dinner.
Mr. JENNER. Did he take a shower, to your recollection, in the mornings
when he was here?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall his having done so.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection as to whether he took a shower
in any event on the morning of November 22?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no recollection of him at all on the morning of
November 22d, except an empty coffee cup.
Mr. JENNER. I take it that, and I should say in the presence of
yourself and Mr. Howlett, that the bathroom is located on the north
side of the house in between the wall of the northeast bedroom and the
back wall of the combination kitchen and dining room area.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Am I correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And when a shower is taken and you are in your bedroom
where you were as I recall on November 22 in the morning, it makes a
noise and it's quite noticeable to you, is it?
Mrs. PAINE. If I'm asleep, there are many things that are not
noticeable to me. I do leave my room door open.
Mr. JENNER. Well, apart from whether you were asleep, I just wanted to
get that--whether you could hear it.
Mrs. PAINE. I would certainly hear it.
Mr. JENNER. And does it make enough racket or noise so that it might
well awaken you if it's turned on?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; especially that close to morning.
Mr. JENNER. And you were not awakened this morning by any shower?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection as to whether you noticed, when
you performed your own ablutions that morning as to whether the shower
had been employed, that is, was the shower curtain moist or wet?
Mrs. PAINE. I made no notice such as that.
Mr. JENNER. Is it likely that had the shower been used you would have
noticed it?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I can't say as it is.
Mr. JENNER. You had, I gather, no sense of his presence that morning
and his leavetaking that morning at all until you arose and he was then
gone?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. You heard no moving about on his part prior to your
awakening?
Mrs. PAINE. No moving about on his part at all when I looked when I
awoke.
(At this point Counsel Jenner and Agent Howlett took other measurements
in the hallway of the Witness Paine.)
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Howlett and I have measured the bathroom and it is 5
feet wide and 8 feet 8 inches long. The hallway running north and south
at the entrance to the 2 bedrooms, using the wall instead of the jamb,
9 feet 6 inches long, and 3 feet 4 inches wide.
The living room, which faces on Fifth Street and is to the east of the
garage wall and to the west of the hallway, running across to the 2
bedrooms which we have just measured, and which faces out onto Fifth
Street, is 13 feet wide by 16 feet 8 inches long. Now, Mrs. Paine,
I'll stand beside you, if I may, and I am facing toward Fifth Street,
am I not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And we are sitting in the dining room portion of the
combination kitchen-dining room?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Directly in front of us--I am standing right behind you--on
the left is a doorway entering into your living room?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. There is a wall between that wall jamb and another door
jamb to the right or west?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that door opens onto what?
Mrs. PAINE. It goes into the garage.
Mr. JENNER. Now, John Joe, if you will measure the distance between the
outer edge of the door jamb of the living room door and the door jamb
of the garage door, however, let's get the outside.
Agent HOWLETT. It would be 1 foot 2 inches from outside jamb to outside
jamb.