Mrs. PAINE. On what day?
Mr. JENNER. Fourth of October 1963.
Mrs. PAINE. No. He arrived at my home before I did on the 4th of
October.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I said that.
Mrs. PAINE. But it was on the 21st of November that he was out on the
front lawn when I arrived. My recollection is that----
Mr. JENNER. Please. I am referring back to the time that he came from
Dallas initially. That was the 4th of October.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection as to any luggage of any kind
or character that he might or did bring with him on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. None.
Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever. Did you ever see him take any luggage out
of your home anytime after he had come to your home on October 4?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And, as I believe I have testified, it is my
impression that I took him to the bus station in Irving on the 7th of
October, and then he carried both shirts over his arm freshly ironed,
and this green zipper bag. But this is my impression.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, at no time from October--including October 4
to November 22 did you see him have in his possession any luggage other
than the green zipper bag?
Mrs. PAINE. That he was carrying?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. My statement is correct?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no recollection of any other kind of luggage being
used by him.
Mr. JENNER. Did the subject of abortion--was the subject of abortion
ever one discussed between you and Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And I think I have so testified. When--part of our
first meeting, as we talked in the park, or close to the first meeting,
after having left her apartment in March, and walked to the park--she
told me that she was going to have a baby, and she said that she didn't
believe in abortion.
Mr. JENNER. Is that when the discussion occurred on birth control?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And was that discussion on birth control directed towards
her avoiding a larger family?
Mrs. PAINE. Future pregnancies; yes.
Mr. JENNER. It was devoted solely to that?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Representative Ford has left with me some questions. I
think probably I might have covered them all.
Would you give us, please, your views with respect to what you
understand to be the Russian system or philosophy--that is, I am not
seeking your views as to what it is, but as to either your sympathy or
empathy or aversion to it.
Mrs. PAINE. I am of the opinion that--saying the Russian system is
rather a larger statement than saying the Communist system. But it may
be that the question was intended to speak about the Communists, or
governmental system.
Mr. JENNER. I think that probably is the thrust of Representative
Ford's inquiry.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, as I have already testified, I dislike deception in
any form. I might go on to say that I think the people of Russia on the
whole have very little choice about their leaders at elections or----
Mr. JENNER. It is the antithesis of democracy?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is certainly a dictatorship.
Mr. JENNER. And that is abhorent to you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, far from having any sympathy with or
admiration for communism or what we might call the Russian system or
philosophy, you have an aversion?
Mrs. PAINE. I have an aversion.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever studied Karl Marx?
Mrs. PAINE. No; not in the sense of studied. I think one history course
in college included a few readings from Karl Marx.
Mr. JENNER. Your readings of Karl Marx's writings have been confined to
your work at Antioch College as a student?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And they were very brief.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever read the Manifesto?
Mrs. PAINE. The Communist Manifesto?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. That was part of the same course.
Mr. JENNER. But there, again, your studying of it or reading of it was
limited to the college course?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And you did not pursue it thereafter?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. And if I asked you the same question with respect to Das
Capital, would your answers be the same?
Mrs. PAINE. I have seen the size of the book, and I certainly would not
want to read it.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, you have not read it?
Mrs. PAINE. I have not read it.
Mr. JENNER. Even in connection with a college course?
Mrs. PAINE. Even in connection with a college course. I think I would
have fudged on that assignment, had it been assigned.
Mr. JENNER. I gather from your testimony you certainly do not consider
yourself a Communist.
Mrs. PAINE. I certainly do not.
Mr. JENNER. And quite the contrary.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us what your activities--you are a member of the
American Civil Liberties Union?
Mrs. PAINE. I am.
Mr. JENNER. What have been your activities in connection with that
organization?
Mrs. PAINE. Primarily to send in my membership fee each year. I have
been a member for some years prior--that is to say, going back to the
time prior to my marriage. I have recently, perhaps a year ago, became
on the membership committee for the local chapter in Dallas. That
chapter, I might say, only just opened a year and a half ago.
Mr. JENNER. And have you, as part of those activities, sought to enlist
others to become members of the American Civil Liberties Union?
Mrs. PAINE. I have talked to perhaps half a dozen people, to encourage
them; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss this organization with Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Have you told us in your testimony up to this moment all of
your discussion of that organization with Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. I call your attention to my testimony of a
conversation with Lee over the phone saying that I thought that if he
was losing his job because of his political views, that this would be
of interest to the Civil Liberties Union.
Mr. JENNER. Did any of those discussions embrace the question of what
possible help this organization might be to him if he got into trouble
eventually?
Mrs. PAINE. My judgment is that he took that statement I have just
referred to as an implication of the possibility of help from that
organization to him personally.
Mr. JENNER. With reference particularly to the possible need at any
time for counsel?
Mrs. PAINE. He may have assumed such a thing. My understanding of the
Civil Liberties Union is that they are not interested in just defending
people, but in defending rights or entering a case where there is doubt
that a person's civil liberties have been properly upheld.
Mr. JENNER. Or might be?
Mrs. PAINE. Or there might be such doubt; yes. I wouldn't know whether
Lee understood that.
Mr. JENNER. At least your discussions with him do not enable you to
proceed to the point at which to enable you to voice any opinions in
this area or subject than you have now given?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of the name John Abt before you received the
telephone call you testified about from Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I had not heard that name.
Mr. JENNER. And, therefore, you never suggested it to Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. No; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. You are a modest person, but could you indicate for us
how fluent you are or you think you are in the command of the Russian
language? Please don't be too modest about it. Be as objective as you
can.
Mrs. PAINE. It is a very hard thing to describe, but I might start by
saying that I have perhaps an 8 or 10-year-old's vocabulary.
Mr. JENNER. You are using as an example the vocabulary of a native
Russian citizen of the age of 8 to 10 years old?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do not have that much fluency. If the subject I am
talking about is something in which I have developed a vocabulary--and
these subjects are mostly in terms of home or the things that one
does--then I can proceed with an ability to convey my meaning. If it
gets into anything technical which would use terms such as insurance or
taxes, I have to look it up. I approach any writing of a letter with
some dread, as it is difficult for me. I might say in this connection
that I presume to teach Russian, not because I am fluent, but because
I think my pronunciation is particularly good for a nonnative, and
because I have gone the route of the beginning student and know how to
do this, and have thought a great deal about what helps a person to
learn. I would not presume to teach English to people who didn't know
the language, though I am fluent in it.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; you are.
You used a 10-year-old comparison as to vocabulary. What would you say
as to your Russian grammar--that is, command of the technicalities of
grammar? Would it be superior to an 8-to 10-year-old?