Mrs. PAINE. It is a little closer than that but blocks in Irving are
not well defined, I might say, so it is hard to say.
Mr. JENNER. When Lee came to your home on weekends, did he eat all of
his meals there at your home?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; he did.
Mr. JENNER. I have already questioned you about breakfast. He always
had his breakfast at your home but it consisted primarily of merely a
cup of coffee?
Mrs. PAINE. He would eat a sweet roll if there was one.
Mr. JENNER. On occasion did he pack a lunch?
Mrs. PAINE. I remember one occasion when Marina packed a lunch or
packed some food for him to take.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say there was anything regular about that?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Any effort on her part to prepare a packet of lunch for him?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You recall only that one occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever discuss any finances in your presence?
Mrs. PAINE. I have already testified that we once in New Orleans, in
September, discussed where he had worked and how to establish his
residence in Texas. This involved giving me the remaining portion from
a paycheck from the place where he had worked, and he discussed how
much he was earning per hour at the two places he worked, the three
places he worked when I knew him. But beyond that, I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Have you told us all the discussions that occurred between
you and Marina with respect to their financial position and their
finances and finances generally?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know what the busfare is from Dallas to Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't.
Mr. JENNER. I will exhibit to you transcripts of three letters that you
wrote your mother, which she permitted an agent of the FBI to copy.
I am going to mark those three transcripts Exhibit 461 for
identification.
They appear as pages 14, 15, and 16 of a report of agents Wilson and
Anderson, dated December 4, 1963.
(The documents referred to were marked "Ruth Paine Exhibit 461," for
identification.)
Mr. JENNER. The first of those is a "Dear Mom" letter dated September
30. I take it that was September 30, 1963. Perhaps I should go at it
this way. Do you recall that letter?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall that letter.
Mr. JENNER. And was it in 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was.
Mr. JENNER. I wish to call your attention to a couple portions of the
letter and ask you a question or two.
In the second paragraph which I have underlined for my notes it reads:
"He has been out of work"--I will read the whole paragraph.
"To my surprise Lee was willing for Marina to come here to have the
baby."
That is Irving, Tex.?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. "Even grateful." Then you say, "He has been out of
work since August, and their income was $33 a week unemployment
compensation, not much."
Now, this letter was written from where and followed what event?
Mrs. PAINE. This was written from Irving on September 30, and it
followed our arrival in Irving on the 24th of September.
Mr. JENNER. From New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. From New Orleans. I had forgotten that I had heard the sum
or the amount of money he was receiving in unemployment compensation.
Mr. JENNER. But this does not refresh your recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. It does?
Mrs. PAINE. It refreshes my recollection that my mother has shown me
the same letter. I registered the same surprise then. I had quite
forgotten that sum.
Mr. JENNER. Now, in the next paragraph it says:
"But I feel now that he does want to keep his family together, and will
send for them as soon as possible."
That was your feeling at that time?
Mrs. PAINE. It certainly was.
Mr. JENNER. After New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you will notice in the letter, you say: "I spoke both
to Lee and to Marina of my expectation that you would be here February
to June. Lee asked how this would affect Marina's tenure, and I said
she can have a place as long as they have need for it."
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Now was there, then, at that time, a feeling or expectation
that Marina would remain with you possibly for some considerable period
of time?
Mrs. PAINE. I had not that feeling, as is shown by what is written
in the above sentence, that he will send for his family as soon as
possible. However, I had made it clear that I was willing for her to
stay if that was necessary.
Mr. JENNER. So that the text of that letter was not intended by you to
convey the impression that you then expected at least at that time and
that Lee also might have expected and Marina, also, that she would be
at your home for any considerable period of time?
Mrs. PAINE. I did not expect that.
Mr. JENNER. As to your expectation--was that dependent on his securing
employment and sending for her, and at that time both of you, meaning
Marina and yourself, expected that when he obtained work he would send
for Marina and they would be together again?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the second letter, which is dated October 15, 1963,
and apparently at your home, it says 2575, it is 2515, isn't it?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. West 5th Street--and it is also a "Dear Mom" letter. Would
you look at that and see if you did dispatch that letter to your mother?
For the record, Mr. Reporter, this present letter commences in the
middle of page 15 of this document.
Do you recall the letter?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you report the fact the big news as of that day, that
Lee had obtained a position.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Was that his position with the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. You don't mention the place of work in your letter.
Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't.
Mr. JENNER. You go on to say in the second paragraph of the letter:
"It is likely that Marina will stay on here for some time, perhaps
through Christmas or New Year's anyway, with Lee coming weekends as he
has the past two."
Had there been some change now that even though he had a position with
the Texas School Book Depository, that Marina's joining him was being
deferred?
Mrs. PAINE. I think that is clear in the next sentence.
Mr. JENNER. All right; read the next sentence.
Mrs. PAINE. "He has a room in Dallas at $8 a week currently, that
he'd like to save a bit before getting an apartment, I think, and,
of course, Marina should be here until she has rested some from
childbirth."
We talked for some time of her being there both up to the birth of the
baby and then for a time after so that I could help her with the care
of the house, and with June.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have an expectation that that stay might be on into
the following year?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. 1964?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. I notice you say in the last paragraph of this particular
letter: "I have mentioned to Marina that I'd like to have you here in
February and that I have given up the idea of a trailer."
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, to me that is an indication that you expected that
Marina might be with you as late as February 1964. Do I misinterpret?
In other words, Mrs. Paine, you were considering the possible
difficulties that might arise from the fact that you were expecting
your mother.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You hoped she might join you in February of 1964, and that
Marina might still be with you?
Mrs. PAINE. I feel that mentioning this to Marina was more an
indication that it would be difficult for me to have her after
February. I didn't make mention of this until such time as it was clear
to me they could well get an apartment and support themselves.
Mr. JENNER. And you were thinking in terms that if your mother did come
that it would probably be necessary that Marina join her husband?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. In Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. During this period of time, did you have any feeling at all
that Lee was--there might be an anticipation on his part that he would
not rejoin Marina, or she him, that something might possibly intervene,
an action on his part that would keep them separated?
Mrs. PAINE. I had no such feeling.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a contrary feeling?
Mrs. PAINE. I had a contrary feeling from both, from each.
Mr. JENNER. And what was that?
Mrs. PAINE. Marina talked to me of her hopes that what problems they
had in the marriage would work out, and Lee appeared to me happy when
he was with Marina and June, and glad to see them, and I also felt that
Marina remained somewhat uncomfortable accepting from someone else,
that she preferred the more independent situation.
Mr. JENNER. State?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But you had no inkling at all or any feeling, the sense on
his part either directly from him or through Marina that he might not
continue in the position, that is the Texas School Depository or might
not continue to live in the Dallas area?
Mrs. PAINE. I had no such feeling. My expectation was contrary.
Mr. JENNER. When you read Commission Exhibit 103, which I have
described as the Mexico letter that you found on your desk secretary,
did you have any feeling after you read that that Lee might have in
mind going to Havana or going back to Russia through Mexico, or some
other manner or means?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I really didn't.
Mr. JENNER. Did you think that letter was by and large something of a
figment of the imagination of Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. It seemed to me that a goodly portion of it, the part upon
which I could judge, was false.
Mr. JENNER. The third of the letters that your mother made available
appears on page 16. It is dated October 27. I take it from the context
of that letter, it was written by you on October 27, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you recall sending that letter to your mother?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.
Mr. JENNER. And it was written after the baby Rachel had been born?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
What? It was written some time after the baby had been born?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, 7 days. One week, as a matter of fact, is that right?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 461 the three
letters which I have identified and which the witness herself has
identified as having been her letters and having been dispatched to her
mother.
(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Ruth Paine
Exhibit No. 461, were received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. I don't know if I asked you if the second and third had
actually been dispatched by you.
Mrs. PAINE. They had all been dispatched by me, yes.
Mr. JENNER. During the period of your contacts with each of the
Oswalds, was there any discussion between them in your presence or with
you directly by either of them respecting his family and members of his
family?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I should limit that first to up to November 22, 1963. If
so, would your answer be the same?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And what was that discussion? Try and fix the time and
places if any particular discussion stands out.
Mrs. PAINE. I have already testified to Marina's comment on wishing
she could reach her mother-in-law to announce the baby's coming birth.
Marina also talked to me----
Mr. JENNER. And that Lee did not give her the telephone number or
advise her of means whereby she could reach her mother-in-law?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate to you that he, in turn, had indicated he
didn't wish her----
Mrs. PAINE. She indicated that he did not wish to make contact.
Mr. JENNER. Did it go beyond that, that he did not wish members of his
family to know that the child Rachel had been born?
Mrs. PAINE. Not that specifically.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. Marina told of having stayed with Lee's brother Robert and
Robert's wife in Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. When they first returned from Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. And of her sorrow that she hadn't been
able to talk more, having virtually no English, but that she had liked
both of them.
I also learned from her that Robert had been assigned by the same
company for which he worked in Fort Worth to a different town, I think
in Alabama for a brief period, and then I heard in October or early
November that he had been----
Mr. JENNER. Of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that he had been transferred to Denton.
Mr. JENNER. Denton, Tex.?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Anything else?
Mrs. PAINE. Part of the correspondence that I have given to the
Commission contains a reference by Marina to Lee's brother, to the best
of my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Brother Robert?
Mrs. PAINE. I can look that up. It doesn't say. But I assumed so.
Mr. JENNER. Are you aware now that Lee had two brothers?
Mrs. PAINE. I am now aware of that.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware during their contact with you up to November
22, 1963, that he had two brothers?
Mrs. PAINE. I have a vague recollection that Marina had mentioned there
being another brother, but I am not certain.
Mr. JENNER. Did anything occur in the way of conversation or otherwise
that brought to your attention the fact, if it be a fact, that Lee was
avoiding contact with his brother and his mother?