Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A rifle.
Mr. JENNER. A rifle, in the closet?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the closet, right in the beginning. It wasn't
hidden or anything.
Mr. JENNER. Standing up on its butt?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I show you Commission Exhibit 139. Is that the rifle that
you saw?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It looks very much like it.
Mr. JENNER. And was it standing in the corner of the closet?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You want me to show you how it was leaning? Make
believe I open the closet door this way. And the rifle was leaning
something like that.
Mr. JENNER. Right against the wall?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and the closet was square. I said, what is
this?
Mr. JENNER. It was this rifle?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know. It looks very much like it,
because something was dangling over it, and I didn't know what it was.
This telescopic sight. Like we had a rifle with us on the road, we just
had a smooth thing, nothing attached to it. And I saw something here.
Mr. JENNER. I say your attention was arrested, not only, because
when the closet door was opened by Marina you saw the rifle in the
closet--you saw a rifle?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That surprised you, first?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of course.
Mr. JENNER. And then other things that arrested your attention, as I
gather from what you said, is that you saw a telescopic sight?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but I didn't know what it was.
Mr. JENNER. But your attention was arrested by that fact, because it
was something new and strange to you?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You were accustomed to your husband having weapons?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we had only one rifle on our trip. But my
father was a collector of guns, that was his hobby.
Mr. JENNER. And being accustomed to rifles, to the extent you have
indicated, you noticed this telescopic lens, because you had not seen
a rifle with a telescopic lens on it before? Had you seen a rifle with
the bolt action that this has?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't ever know. I read it was bolt
action, but I would not know.
Mr. JENNER. But you did notice this protrusion, the ball sticking out?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't recall. The only thing there was
something on it. It could be that it was the telescopic sight or
something, but it was something on the rifle. It was not a smooth,
plain rifle. This is for sure.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when you saw that, and being surprised, were you
concerned about it?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I just asked what on earth is he doing with a
rifle?
Mr. JENNER. What did she say?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She said, "Oh, he just loves to shoot." I said,
"Where on earth does he shoot? Where can he shoot?" When they lived
in a little house. "Oh, he goes in the park and he shoots at leaves
and things like that." But it didn't strike me too funny, because I
personally love skeet shooting. I never kill anything. But I adore to
shoot at a target, target shooting.
Mr. JENNER. Skeet?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I just love it.
Mr. JENNER. Didn't you think it was strange to have someone say he is
going in a public park and shooting leaves?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. But he was taking the baby out. He goes with
her, and that was his amusement.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say that?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that was his amusement, practicing in the
park, shooting leaves. That wasn't strange to me, because any time I go
to an amusement park I go to the rifles and start shooting. So I didn't
find anything strange.
Mr. JENNER. But you shot a rifle at the rifle range in these amusement
parks?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Little .22?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know what it was.
Mr. JENNER. Didn't you think it was strange that a man would be walking
around a public park in Dallas with a high-powered rifle like this,
shooting leaves?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know it was a high-powered rifle. I had
no idea. I don't even know right now. Is it a high-powered rifle? Or
just a regular one-bullet rifle, isn't it?
Mr. JENNER. It is a one-bullet rifle, but it is a pretty powerful one.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't know that. What caliber is it?
Mr. JENNER. 6.5.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I don't understand. We had 16--shotgun with
us.
Mr. JENNER. Had anything been said up to this point in your
acquaintance with the Oswalds of his having had a rifle, or a shotgun,
in Russia?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. No discussion of any hunting in Russia?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In fact, we never even knew that he was a
sharpshooter or something. We never knew about it.
Mr. JENNER. No discussion of that?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No discussion at all. She just said, we are so
short of money, and this crazy lunatic buys a rifle. This is what she
told me. And you know what happened after that.
Mr. JENNER. Please. Tell me everything she said on this occasion.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think the most important thing is, that crazy
lunatic bought a rifle when we really need money for other things.
Mr. JENNER. And she also said he took it out in the park and was
shooting it?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Something like that; yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, then, what did you do? Go into some other
part of the house?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It wasn't very much. I believe it was only two
rooms. And then I returned back, and told George--do you know what they
have in the closet? I came back to the room, where George and Lee were
sitting and talking. I said, do you know what they have in the closet?
A rifle. And started to laugh about it. And George, of course, with his
sense of humor--Walker was shot at a few days ago, within that time. He
said, "Did you take a pot shot at Walker by any chance?" And we started
laughing our heads off, big joke, big George's joke. And later on,
according to the newspapers, he admitted that he shot at Walker.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when George made that remark in the presence of
Lee Oswald, "Did you take a pot shot at Walker?" Did you notice any
change----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We were not looking for any. I wish I would know.
Mr. JENNER. Please--I want only your reaction. Your husband has told me
his. You noticed nothing?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't notice anything.
Mr. JENNER. Were you looking to see whether he had a change of
expression?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; none at all. It was just a joke.
Mr. JENNER. As far as you were concerned, it was a joke?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sure.
Mr. JENNER. But you did not look at him to see if he reacted?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't take it seriously enough to look at
him.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't.
Mr. JENNER. How long did you remain after that at their home?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not very long. I think we went on the terrace.
And I don't even remember whether we had a drink, a soft drink, or not.
And we left. She got me some roses. They had a big rose tree right by
the staircase. And she got me a lot of roses, and we went home. The
baby was asleep.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see the Oswalds on any subsequent occasion?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Never saw them?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I don't think so. What day was
Easter, by the way? Do you remember--1963?
Mr. JENNER. No; I don't.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Because the 19th of April, we left.
Mr. JENNER. You left for New York on the 19th of April?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nineteenth, from what I recall. I think so.
Mr. JENNER. I think Easter was late that year, but I am not certain. In
any event, it was the day before Easter?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I believe so; yes. The night before Easter.
Mr. JENNER. When you left for New York, you were in New York a few
weeks, a couple of weeks?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We spent about 6 weeks between New York,
Washington, Philadelphia.
Mr. JENNER. And you returned to Dallas in May?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. End of May.
Mr. JENNER. Did you call the Oswalds?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; we didn't. We heard that they were already
gone. I wanted to see them before we went to Haiti. But I understood
that they were gone, or they were going. I had no time. So we didn't
get in touch with them. But we had a card from them from New Orleans,
with their address. But I don't think we ever wrote to them. I don't
remember writing. We were going to send them a Christmas card.
Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall an occasion in February of 1963 when
there was a gathering in the evening at the home of, or apartment of
Everett Glover?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you and your husband take part in that?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we were showing our movies to Everett's
friends.
Mr. JENNER. How did that party come about?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, you know, we have this quite unusual film,
and quite a few people interested to see it. And, in fact, we showed
that film--the film so many times, at clubs and gatherings. And he had
still quite a few friends that wanted to see it, and we had a couple
of friends. So we decided to have it. And then he mentioned he knew a
woman, Ruth Paine.
Mr. JENNER. You are talking about Glover?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and he said that would be very nice. I was
sort of looking for American couples to introduce Lee and Marina to
American people--not to Russian refugees--to get her out of that. So he
mentioned that it would be very nice for Marina to meet this girl, and
it was. She was a young woman, she was interested in Russian.
Mr. JENNER. What was her name?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Ruth Paine. And that we thought was very good,
because she could help Marina in English and Marina would help her in
Russian, that it would work very well. From what I understand later on
from the papers, she did help a lot, Marina. She did a lot for her.
Mr. JENNER. Did you talk to Marina about this in advance?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I think maybe I did. I don't
remember. I really don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. A few weeks before this, Marina and Lee had visited in your
home, isn't that correct?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very possible, very possible. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. Had you known Ruth Paine at all prior to this time?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Met her the first time that evening, and we
liked her very much, because she is an outgoing, warm, and wonderful
person. I thought that would be terrific for Marina to be close to
somebody because I didn't have time. I just couldn't, and I don't have
any patience. When I see somebody is clicking right away I respond to
advice, but she wasn't, you know. She was too slow, and we have too
much problems with our own children.
Mr. JENNER. Who is too slow?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Marina. We had too many problems with our own
children, and I was just tired of it, you know. After all, she was not
my child. I did everything I could, so let somebody else take over
and do something else because I was too busy, and we were planning
this trip. George--through next month to Haiti actually to seal this
contract. We had our heads busy with other things.
Mr. JENNER. What occurred during that evening? The movie was shown?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We just showed the movie and discussed it, and
the people asked different questions, peculiar questions about the life
of Indians--or----
Mr. JENNER. About your trip?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. About our trip, and that was all.
Mr. JENNER. Weren't these people interested in Marina and Oswald?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Some were.
Mr. JENNER. Who was present?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From what I recall at that particular time, it
was just Ruth Paine that we noticed was the most interested in her. I
don't even remember who was there besides. I don't remember who was
there.
There were some young people from a mobile research laboratory that
worked with Everett.
Mr. JENNER. From Everett Glover's place?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; there were people there. I do believe,
I think we invited the person that owned the apartment house. This
time we showed movies twice at Everett's house, I believe. I think we
showed it twice, and we invited the people that own the apartment house
because they were interested in that.
Mr. JENNER. What are their names?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. She is teaching in a
university, in Dallas University now. They like to travel a lot, too. I
am sure you can get the name, the list of names of people from Everett.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee have a good time at this party, or meeting?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know, because it was always dark when
the movies were shown, so I wasn't observing anybody.
Mr. JENNER. Did you bring Lee and Marina to the party?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't believe so. I think somebody else got
them, because I think we had people, out of town guests, and in fact we
came in very late, I think. We arrived quite late that day.
Mr. JENNER. You arrived at the party late?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; once we were late. I forgot which showing
it was. We had a couple of people out of town. We invited them for
dinner, and then we brought them over.
Mr. JENNER. That was the only purpose of the meeting that you have
indicated?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The only purpose of?
Mr. JENNER. The meeting, the only purpose was the one you have
indicated?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you attend a combination Christmas and New Year's party
in December of 1963 at the Fords?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know the date.
Mr. JENNER. 1963.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know the date, but there was a party,
and we attended it.
Mr. JENNER. Please, when you say you don't know the dates, was it in
December? Was it in the holiday period?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was in the holiday period, but was it
December or was it early January, I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. And who was at that party?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. There were quite a lot of people from this
Russian colony and among them there was a little Japanese girl. Do you
know about Yaeko?
Mr. JENNER. Y-a-e-k-o?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you know Yaeko before?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we knew Yaeko before.
Mr. JENNER. What was her last name?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember her last name because we always
called her Yaeko.
Mr. JENNER. Where was she working?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know whether she was working at the time
or not, but she was imported by some American family. She came with the
family. She is supposed to be from a very fine Japanese family. She was
wealthy. It was strange she worked almost as a servant in some family.
I know she had only one day off, because I remember when we wanted to
invite her it was only one day, Thursday, that we could invite her.
Then she did some work with Neiman Marcus.
Mr. JENNER. Neiman Marcus?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Then she was a musician. She played the Japanese
special long, long instrument, and she was playing with the Dallas
Symphony, and she was also playing at exhibits, Neiman Marcus gives
exhibits, you know, oriental exhibits, whatever it was, that fall, and
she was participating in it. That is what we know about Yaeko. But
then we heard that she was in New York.
To tell you frankly I never trusted Yaeko. I thought there was
something fishy, maybe because I was brought up with Japanese, you
know, and I knew what treachery it is, you know. I just somehow--she
was very pleasant, but was very strange to me the way she was floating
around, you know, and everything. There is another strange thing
happened, too, with that Yaeko.
Mr. JENNER. Involving the Oswalds?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was very funny because they practically
spent all evening together at that party, and Marina was furious, of
course, about it. And the party that brought Yoico to the party was
furious about it, too, and I don't blame him for it. And from what
I understand, Marina told me that Oswald saw Yaeko after, which was
very unusual, because I don't think Oswald wanted to see anyone, let's
put it that way. He would rather just sit by himself and--locked in a
house, not to see anyone. And, in fact, Marina was jealous of it, from
Yaeko. She was the only person we know that Oswald really liked.
Mr. JENNER. Can you recall the names of the family with whom Yaeko--by
whom Yaeko was employed?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; but I can find out very easily.
Mr. JENNER. How?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Through Dallas. They know the people that
actually introduced Yaeko. It will be Henry Rogatz who knows Yaeko very
well.
Mr. JENNER. Spell that, please.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Two people who can give you everything about
Yoico because they have been carrying on helping her all the time.
Henry Rogatz, also in----
Mr. JENNER. Henry Rogatz, R-o-g-a-t-z, and Lev Aronson, A-r-o-n-s-o-n?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and I believe I have Lev's address in my
phone book, if I need it. I can phone you. I don't know if we have
Henry's address now. They are both very nice people, charming people.
Mr. JENNER. Would you do this. Call my hotel, The Madison?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Call later on?
Mr. JENNER. And leave a message at my hotel as to Mr. Aronson's address
and telephone number, if you have it?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and maybe we have Henry's address. Maybe
somebody sent it to us because we asked. We didn't have it with us when
we left. We just moved. Voshinin liked Yaeko.
Mr. JENNER. Voshinin?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but I think Henry can tell you much more
than anybody.
Mr. JENNER. How, otherwise, did Oswald act at this Christmas party. He
paid a great deal of attention, apparently, to----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; they talk, talk, talk, talk, talk.
Mr. JENNER. To the Japanese girl?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; what did they talk about, I don't have the
slightest idea. But everybody remarked and we were laughing about it.
We were teasing Marina how he had a little Japanese girl now, you now.
That was just as fun, of course, you know. But evidently they not only
talked because she said he saw her later and he liked her. That is what
she told me. He really liked Yaeko.
Mr. JENNER. Did you bring the Oswalds to the party?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think we brought them. In fact, I had a fight
almost to get them to that party because Cathy didn't want them and we
weren't giving any parties. We gave a big party before, and I wanted
Marina to be at some Christmas party because it was her first Christmas
in the United States, she could have some kind of fun, so I talked her
into it finally. She objected, because she could not bring the baby
because the baby would wake up.
I said okay, I'm going to leave the baby with somebody else. So I have
another friend which I talked into babysitting for the baby. So we
went, we got there, and we left the baby with the friend and then we
took them to the party, and then we went back to the friend, picked up
the baby. It was midnight or whatever it was, and took them back.
Mr. JENNER. Earlier in raising this Christmas party matter with you,
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, I stated that it was in December of 1963. That
was a slip of the tongue, and it was in December of 1962, because in
December of 1963 you were in Haiti.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was after this.
Mr. JENNER. Of course, it couldn't be December of 1963.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was dead already.
Mr. JENNER. By that time, he was not alive. You took the Oswalds home
that evening?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I believe we did. We just had to, because we
had to go pick up the baby. The baby was crying all evening. That poor
woman was up with her all the time. It was just impossible, that baby
was so spoiled, all the time with her, with her mother, or with Lee,
because so few people came to see them. They lived like mice, you know.
That is why we were so sorry for them.
I wanted for them to meet American couples to get out of it. We tried
to get Marina friendly with George's daughter because she had a little
boy, too.
Mr. JENNER. With whose daughter?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. With George's daughter.
Mr. JENNER. Alexandra?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but Alexandra couldn't understand her. She
thought it was horrible the way she treats that baby. It is true she
doesn't know how to raise the baby. Alexandra told me she was lazy,
also, and she wasn't clean, and things like that.
Now I remember how come it was that she wasn't clean. Alexandra was
complaining about her. So Alexandra--it didn't hit off exactly with
Alexandra, but it was very nice. Her husband went to visit them after,
and I think they helped them to move, even.
Mr. JENNER. Gary Taylor?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Gary is insignificant but a good soul, a
good boy, you know. He is nothing at all.
Mr. JENNER. You mean he is not a man of attainment?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but he is a good soul. He is really good,
so I could never be very angry for what happened. It was just a child's
prank that he ran off so early and got married. In fact, I was sorry
for him because I knew he is not going to be happy, not to start with.
I knew he was not going to be. I believe kids helped them quite some
and maybe the kids consoled them after.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything ever said by Marina or your husband that she
sought to have Oswald leave Russia and come to the United States?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think so. It is just impressions we had.
Mr. JENNER. Now, was there any discussion at any time, or did anything
come to your attention that Lee Oswald sought to have Marina return to
Russia?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. None at all.
Mr. JENNER. That is entirely new to you?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely new. Was it such a thing? I shouldn't
ask you any questions. I am sorry, because I am so curious about the
whole thing, myself. In fact, we learned from press 10 times more than
we ever knew about them.
Mr. JENNER. You may have gotten a lot of misinformation from the press,
as well.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Could be, I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Are you aware of your husband's letter to Mrs. Auchincloss,
Jacqueline Kennedy's mother?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Did I what?