Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I could have been if I saved the money, but I
didn't.
Mr. JENNER. You made a comfortable living, and that is about it?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is it.
Mr. JENNER. But at this particular time, you were not in a position to
assist the Oswalds financially in any material sense?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly; none at all.
Mr. JENNER. But you were in a position that you could afford them time?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And attention?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Not them--actually with Marina, because we
couldn't do much for Oswald--just talk to a couple of people about him,
and maybe get him a job. But even the job he had--I don't know who got
it--I think it was an agency that got him the job he had.
Mr. JENNER. At Leslie Welding?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know the name of the firm. He worked in
a darkroom.
Mr. JENNER. That was later.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't even know the name of it.
Mr. JENNER. You are not clear in your mind, I take it, that when you
first met the Oswalds; you don't know whether you went to their home
or----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I really don't remember.
And, believe me, I had enough time to think about it. I was trying
to remember every little detail that can be useful. I cannot still
remember exactly how it came about--whether they were brought to our
house. I don't think we drove and got them for the first time. Maybe we
took them back, you know, to Fort Worth. It could be. I don't know.
Of course, they had the baby with them. They always had to bring the
baby--couldn't leave the baby with anyone.
Mr. JENNER. But in due course you did enter their home in Fort Worth?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never entered their home in Fort Worth.
George, I think, did once. George walked in, because Lee was asleep, I
think, when we brought Marina--so he maybe walked in the house--because
he went out to the door. I never did. They lived somewhere--there was a
tremendous store, Montgomery Ward or something.
Mr. JENNER. Sears?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I think it was Montgomery Ward. I don't
remember. That is where they lived. It was a miserable-looking house.
That is what I saw. A wooden building.
Mr. JENNER. You found them to be in destitute circumstances, did you?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I wouldn't say they were completely
starving, but they were quite miserable--quite, quite miserable, you
know. Even if they were not destitute, the personality that Lee had
would make anybody miserable to live with.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Tell us about Lee Oswald.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What I think of the fellow?
Mr. JENNER. Your impressions of him, what you thought of him.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Disagreeable. He was very, very disagreeable,
and disappointed. He is like a puppy dog that everybody kicked. And he
was sort of withdrawn within himself. And his greatest objection was
that people helped them too much, they were showering things on Marina.
Marina had a hundred dresses given to her. The baby had a crib. My
daughter didn't have it when I came to the United States, and I didn't
have one-hundredth of what Marina had, because I didn't know anybody,
and I didn't want to know anybody when I came over. I was in such
circumstances. So, anyway, he objected to that lavish help, because
Marina was throwing it into his face.
Mr. JENNER. She was?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely--see people, how nice they are? And
she is always telling me--the people are nice, giving all these things,
and he is insulting them for it. He was offensive with the people. And
I can understand why, and maybe I was the only one that understood him,
while he was offensive, because that hurt him. He could never give her
what the people were showering on her. So that was very difficult for
him, no matter how hard he worked--and he worked very hard. He worked
overtime, he used to come in at 11 o'clock, she said, at night, and
when he come home, he started reading again. So he was not running
around.
He didn't drink, he didn't smoke. He was just hard working, but a very
difficult personality.
And usually offensive at people because people had an offensive
attitude to him.
I don't think he was offensive for that, because of the things we did,
he could have killed us.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, you see, he mistreated his wife
physically. We saw her with a black eye once.
Mr. JENNER. And did you talk to him and to her about it?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we did. I called him just like our own
kids, and set them down, and I said, "Listen, you have to grow up, you
cannot live like that. This is not a country that permits such things
to happen. If you love each other, behave. If you cannot live with each
other peacefully, without all this awful behavior, you should separate,
and see, maybe you really don't love each other."
Marina was, of course, afraid she will be left all alone, if she
separate from Oswald--what is she going to do? She doesn't know the
language, she had nobody to turn to. I understand they didn't get along
with Oswald's family.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this is what you learned in talking with them?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes; through them actually, by facing them.
Mr. JENNER. I want you to identify your sources of information.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes.
Mr. JENNER. You learned through Marina and Oswald, also, that they
didn't get along well with their----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I cannot say through them, because maybe people
talked about it, you know. She couldn't live in her sister-in-law's
home, they didn't get along. And I understand that later on somebody
mentioned that the reason was that she was just too lazy. She slept in
the morning.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She is lazy. You see, there are people that
actually are no good, but still they have something very nice about
them, that you cannot really be furious with them or mad, you really
can't. She is lazy, and I know it, because she stayed once overnight.
Mr. JENNER. Where? At your home?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; with the baby. And I tell you--if I stay
with somebody overnight, I will jump up the first thing in the morning,
see what I can do to help, knowing I will be doing everything.
She didn't. She slept. I actually had to waken her up. She did the same
thing--she stayed in our daughter's home overnight. Because when her
teeth were pulled, she was not in condition to go back. She was the
same way--very lazy. And I just couldn't understand it--a young person.
Maybe she was ill. We talked about it--maybe we have just too much
energy. For a young girl to sleep late, and not to be active.
The proof of her laziness is that she didn't do much about learning
English, in spite I gave her the records, and we gave her one of our
little phonographs. I had beautiful records to learn English--I bought
them in New York when I arrived.
Mr. JENNER. Is it that she was lazy that she didn't pursue learning
English, or did Oswald object to her learning English?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. According to her Oswald objected, and he also
told us himself that he wants to speak with her in Russian, because he
doesn't want to forget Russian.
But then we got onto Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me about it now.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He didn't want to forget his Russian. That was
his reason--not to let his wife learn English--because she was the only
person he could speak Russian to.
Mr. JENNER. He could still speak Russian to her, even though she
learned English, couldn't he?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of course, that is what we told him. We said,
"You are crippling her, she has to learn English. She cannot live in
this country without the language, she cannot do anything."
He was strange in many, many ways.
But he never appeared to be violent or anything. He was a little
violent once, when we came to the point that we said we are taking your
wife and child away. That is the only time he showed real nastiness.
Mr. JENNER. Please.
You reached the point where you and your husband took Marina and the
child out of the home and away from Oswald against his objections.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Against his objections. Actually, we talked him
into doing it peacefully.
Mr. JENNER. And where did you take Marina and June?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We took Marina and June to the house of Meller.
Mr. JENNER. Anna Meller?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Anna Meller, yes. Very poor people--they put
the baby's crib right in the dining room and everything. That is how
nice people were, trying to help her. That was supposed to be temporary
until we find another place where she could live with somebody for 2 or
3 months. We were trying to put her with Ford, with Declan Ford's wife,
because she had a big house, and she had a newborn baby. But she is not
a very easygoing person. She refused. I was furious with her that she
refused, because she really could take Marina very nicely.
And I believe finally she was talked into it, and she had Marina maybe
for a little while with her. I don't know. I am not sure.
Mr. JENNER. In October or November?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe, yes. I don't even know.
Mr. JENNER. But why did you take Marina from the home?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Because he was beating her, and we didn't think
it was right. We thought that a separation for them--they will decide
whether they really love each other, they cannot live without each
other, or they forget about each other. But that was absolutely useless
to continue to live the way they were.
In fact, Bouhe had the same idea, but he was afraid to do it. He was
always afraid of Lee. Naturally, being a bachelor--perhaps, Bouhe's
type of person is afraid of his own shadow--there are people like that.
Mr. JENNER. Well, he is an older man.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think he saw a lot in his life, maybe.
Mr. JENNER. He is not a man of great physical stature, like your
husband?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is it. Lots of things contribute to the
personality.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, you had discussions with both
Marina and Lee about their difficulties?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we had them at the same time, in the same
room.
Mr. JENNER. Now, what were the reasons that she advanced as to any--as
to her dissatisfaction?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What was the reasons what?
Mr. JENNER. What were the reasons she said why she was dissatisfied
with him?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, there was quite a few reasons. And I tell
you--it was strange for me to hear from a young girl like that to speak
so, how you say it--so boldy, about sex, for instance. I was shocked by
it, you know--because in my times, even I was twice as old as she.
Mr. JENNER. Will you please tell me what she said?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, she said her husband doesn't satisfy her.
She just--and he is just too busy with his things, he doesn't pay
enough attention to her.
Mr. JENNER. That was one reason?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is one of the main reasons, yes.
And the second reason, he was cruel with her--for instance, she likes
to smoke, and he would forbid her to smoke. Any little argument or
something--like once something--she didn't fill his bathtub, he beat
her for it. And, also, he didn't like for her to have a drink of wine.
She liked wine very much. She wasn't a drunk or anything, but she likes
to drink wine. And he would object to that, too. And that was their
main disagreements.
And then with the baby, he was absolutely fanatical about the child.
He loved that child. You should see him looking at the child, he just
changed completely. He thought that she was not too good with the
child. The child was already spoiled to no end. Every time the child
makes a noise, she picked it up. If she is not there in a second to
pick the child up, Lee is after her--why is the baby crying? And the
baby is extremely difficult, because it doesn't know anybody but her
or Lee. Nobody could pick her up. And she is constantly with her. She
had the child with her all the time, from our observations. She just
couldn't take it. It was very, very difficult. And still at the same
time, she didn't do much to free herself from it.
Mr. JENNER. What were Marina's personal habits? Was she clean and neat?
Did she keep her home clean and neat? Or did her laziness spill over
into those areas?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, it was halfway, because it seems to be
neat, and still not very--she was not a woman to arrange the home
or make a home. I don't think so. And I don't know enough about it,
because they had so few things, and they were so poor. So what can you
make a home out of, nothing. You cannot really judge. You cannot. I am
sure if she has things to do it with, I am sure she will.
At that particular time, she could not. She didn't have enough things
to make a home. The apartments they were living in in Dallas were
miserable, very, very poor.