Mr. JENNER. A reputation, whether she was or was not--what did the
Russian community as a whole, now, not just your mother-in-law?
Mr. MAMANTOV. All right--you want the Communist Party of the United
States or Communist Party of the Soviet Union?
Mr. JENNER. All right, I'll take both of them--I'll take the Communist
Party of the Soviet Union first.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Everybody knew that she was a member of the Communistic
Youth Organization--she didn't even hide this, but I never have heard
of somebody implying that she would be a member of the Communist
Party of the United States, so as community, I don't think everybody
considered her as well tied to the Communist Party as the community did
Oswald himself.
Mr. JENNER. What was the general reputation, if any, of Marina in the
Russian community on the subject of whether she had any fixed political
views and might actively support those views here in the United States?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I don't know this--I mean--I don't have any opinion.
I haven't heard anything--I know that she didn't--she avoided political
discussions, I'll put it this way.
Mr. JENNER. She did?
Mr. MAMANTOV. She did avoid political discussions.
Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony, you are acquainted with the
Fords?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. I think you said Mr. Bouhe was a bachelor?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. He is a bachelor now--he was
married--he's divorced.
Mr. JENNER. He's a grass widower?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, but he was a very short time widower--he could be
married.
Mr. JENNER. Were you and your family aware of Bouhe's efforts, if they
were efforts, to collect clothing and otherwise be helpful to the
Oswalds?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. You were aware of that?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.
Mr. JENNER. And was that in your opinion a good faith, charitable
impulse on his part?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You think it might have been ulterior?
Mr. MAMANTOV. We objected immediately when we heard about this. We
objected to every person who took Marina in their own house, in trying
to collect money and clothing, and this supposedly happened after her
husband beat her up.
Mr. JENNER. When there went through the Russian community a report
that Lee Oswald had inflicted physical violence on Marina, then the
community objected to assistance being afforded the Oswalds?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't know--I think they were especially helping her,
after they left Fort Worth, and they had domestic disagreements.
Supposedly, she was attacked by him--then the Russian community here in
Dallas tried to help her by taking her into the houses or collecting
money and collecting clothing and stuff like that, so I opposed this
more and more violently.
Mr. JENNER. But you do know that the Russian community, as such, of
which Mr. Bouhe was a member, was seeking to assist her?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. By collecting clothing?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Gathering money and taking her into their homes on
occasions?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right--assigning for certain families to keep for
a couple of weeks or a week.
Mr. JENNER. That included Mrs. Meller?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That included Mrs. Meller, Fords, and he tried to get
this person----
Mr. JENNER. When you say "he" you mean Mr. Bouhe?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Mr. Bouhe.
Mr. JENNER. He tried to place her with whom--Mrs. Grolle?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; she's an elderly person and lives by herself and had
a few rooms for rent and as far as I know, she didn't take her into her
home.
Mr. JENNER. Well, we have no information that she did.
Mr. MAMANTOV. As far as I know, I don't think that she did, but I don't
think that she did, but Mellers and the Fords took her for a week or
for 2 weeks.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever heard of a Mrs. Elena Hall?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Elena Hall--how do you spell it?
Mr. JENNER. H-a-l-l [spelling], E-l-e-n-a [spelling].
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; the first name--Elena Hall?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; you see, we have a secretary, Helene,
H-e-l-e-n-e [spelling] Hall, which couldn't be that person.
Mr. JENNER. No, that's a different person.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Paul Gregory or Peter Gregory?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir; father, I think, is Peter.
Mr. JENNER. You mean one is the father and one is son?
Mr. MAMANTOV. One is father's name and one is son's name--that's
correct, but his father is not living. Do you know how Russians call
your name--if I would refer to you, it is your name first and your
father's name second, instead of saying Mr. so and so, so that's how it
appears.
Mr. JENNER. What do they say in case--since my name and my father's
name are the same?
Mr. MAMANTOV. The same--it would be, if you are, for instance, Oswald,
it would be Oswald Oswald, each ending implies you are a son of Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. You have already mentioned Volkmar Schmidt.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.
Mr. JENNER. He was a roommate or lived with Mr. Glover.
Mr. MAMANTOV. And a close friend of Dick Pierce.
Mr. JENNER. P-i-e-r-c-e [spelling]?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Also a geologist.
Mr. JENNER. Or, P-e-a-r-c-e [spelling]?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, P-i-e-r-c-e [spelling].
Mr. JENNER. What was his first name?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Richard, R-i-c-h-a-r-d [spelling].
Mr. JENNER. Is Mr. Norman Fredricksen a student?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I was teaching scientific Russian for the Socony Mobil
Research Lab in Duncanville, and this student joined. Actually, the
class was carried out first, well, first semester and Mr. Fredricksen
was hired by Socony Mobil and joined the class.
Mr. JENNER. How old a man is he?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, I would guess around 28 plus.
Mr. JENNER. He is a young man?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; he came to--he served in the Army.
Mr. JENNER. Do you--the United States Army?
Mr. MAMANTOV. United States Army, was in Germany, and studied Russian
in Heidelberg. When he came back, he did graduate work after the Army.
He did graduate work at the University of Pennsylvania and had studied
Russian, so when he came to my class he had a very good background of
the Russian language already.
Mr. JENNER. Now, there was an occasion, was there not, in which this
student, Norman Fredricksen, said something to you about Oswald; isn't
that correct?
Mr. MAMANTOV. May I point out, I lost him for a while after I finished
that semester, that interrupted Russian, and this was in the spring of
1961, and if I am right, about a semester or two semesters later, he
and Volkmar Schmidt came to my home and asked me to conduct private
lessons for both of them.
Mr. JENNER. Had you also been tutoring Volkmar Schmidt?
Mr. MAMANTOV. They came--right now, they came to my house. Not
before--the first time I met Volkmar Schmidt was when Fredricksen and
Volkmar Schmidt came to my home, and I said, "All right, I'll take both
of you," and I talked to Fredricksen, and Volkmar Schmidt was described
as knowing the same amount of the Russian language, and I found out he
didn't know half as much as Fredricksen did and I offered to split and
I would continue to teach for the same amount of money Fredricksen,
and Volkmar Schmidt would take from my mother-in-law, who had time and
willingness to teach individual students, so we split--I was tutoring
Fredricksen and she was teaching Schmidt.
Mr. JENNER. And did there come this occasion when Fredricksen spoke to
you about the Oswalds one night?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right, and Fredricksen and his wife came to visit
with us.
Mr. JENNER. Your home?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, and this was, I would say,
sometime--March, April, might be of 1963, and so they told us yesterday
or day before yesterday that they went to a very interesting party
where the person present just came in from the Soviet Union and his
wife, and the party was held at Glover's home. I asked him who was
present. He said Mrs. Paine was present, of course, both Oswalds were
present, and the De Mohrenschildts were present. Of course, Glover was
present and I don't remember who else he mentioned, and we started the
conversation.
Mr. JENNER. Was Fredricksen present?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, Fredricksen and his wife, he and my wife, my
mother-in-law and myself violently jumped into the conversation, and
I said, "Folks, you just don't know with whom you are associating.
You shouldn't be at that party, and you shouldn't be going into those
houses," and, of course, they said, "We just wanted to speak Russian.
Mrs. Paine wanted to learn Russian, so we wanted to learn Russian and
we just decided to get together and learn Russian." And they didn't
speak Russian very much except with Marina. She was very shy and
didn't talk very much. Most of the evening was spent conversing with
Oswald on political questions, because he understood.
Mr. JENNER. This was the report they made to you?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. In the questioning by the Federal Bureau of Investigation,
you mentioned either a Mr. Clark or a Mrs. Clark.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, those people from Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. What are their names--do you remember a given name?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, I don't remember, but he is a lawyer and his wife,
she is a Russian from France. He married her, I think, during the
American occupation of Europe.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, Mr. Gregory is a native-born Russian?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, he is Grigor'er. He has changed his name--it isn't
his original name.
Mr. JENNER. Originally, it was Gregoria and he changed it to Gregory,
spelled G-r-i-g-o-r'e-r [spelling]?
Mr. MAMANTOV. It could be--he spelled it also with an "e", but that's
originally his name.
Mr. JENNER. He is a petroleum consultant of some type?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Petroleum engineer--correct.
Mr. JENNER. Is he part Russian--part of the Russian emigre group here
in the Dallas-Fort Worth area?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right. You see, we are not meeting with them for
quite a while as a group. We broke away, but individually, I have been
with Gregorys on a few occasions--I have been with the Clarks on few
occasions together. I have been with Mr. Bouhe quite frequently in
the past--whom else--the same I know them very well personally but we
didn't meet--we don't meet as a group any more.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Mamantov, do you have anything that occurs to you
that you think I would like to add to the record that you think might
be helpful to the Presidential investigation of the assassination of
President Kennedy, in connection with its work in investigating the
assassination of President John F. Kennedy; if so, would you please
state what you have in mind?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I have grave doubts of Marina's exit of the Soviet Union
so easily. Of course, I don't have any proof one way or the other--but
knowing her life from what I translated, I have more doubt of her
arrangement--how the woman could come out so easy from the Soviet
Union, because if I liked to get--if I would have liked to take some of
my family out it would take for me years and thousands of dollars to
get my closest relative out of the Soviet Union. Besides, she should be
old, practically as a laborer help not useful to the Soviet Union, and
here, a young lady--20 or 21, just married an American citizen came out
and--but I don't want to accuse her--maybe she's completely innocent. I
know other cases where people would use all possible means to get out
of the Soviet Union. Maybe this is the case, but there is still in my
mind quite a doubt of her coming out so easy.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything else you want to add?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, not on this particular case, I think that's
everything.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we have had some off the record discussions and I had
a short talk with you before we began this deposition.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that occurred during the course of our
off the record discussions or preliminary talks before the deposition,
that you think is pertinent here that I have failed to bring out?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, I think you brought out everything that I think of.
Mr. JENNER. Was there anything you said to me in the off-the-record
discussions or the preliminary discussions which, in your opinion, is
inconsistent with any testimony that you have given on the record?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, I don't think it is.
Mr. JENNER. And, as you sit there, do you have any feeling that at any
time, on or off the record, that I directly or indirectly sought to
influence you in any statements you might have made?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Well, we very much appreciate your cooperation and help and
in sticking with us now and going into all of this with us, and at the
moment, I don't have in mind anything further, but it is possible that
while I am still here in Dallas this week or next week, or afterwards,
I might wish to get in touch with you and have you further extend your
deposition.
Mr. MAMANTOV. All right, sir.
Mr. JENNER. We will close the taking of the deposition of Mr. Mamantov
at this point.