16,820. You examined a small parcel of oatmeal, No. 1 in the
report, which you value at 1s. per 7 lbs.: how much is that per
boll?-There is 140 lbs. in the boll, so that it would be exactly
20s. per boll. At the time I made the valuation that was a fair
average price for it in Edinburgh.
16,821. Was it a good quality of meal?-It was not; not so good as
some samples which I have frequently seen. I could not sell it in
my premises, for instance.
16,822. Would it be considered inferior quality in Canongate?-
Yes.
16,823. Could you not sell it at all?-Perhaps I could sell it; but I
should not like to trust selling it to my customers, as they might
not like to come back again.
16,824. Is it above or below the average quality of meal that is sold
in country districts?-I think that in Shetland it will perhaps be
about the average quality sold there, as it has likely been made
from oats grown in [Page 433] that country; but it is not like meal
made from oats grown in Midlothian.
16,825. Do you know that from any knowledge which you have of
Shetland trade?-I don't know anything about it, further than from
seeing the quality of the meal which was submitted to me; and
comparing it with what could be made in Midlothian, I should say
that it was inferior in quality to anything that would be sold as
good meal here.
16,826. Perhaps you do not know much about the business which
is carried on in country districts?-I cannot say that I have carried
it on, but I know a good deal about it.
16,827. Have you examined any samples of meal from districts
similar to Shetland?-I have had meal from Aberdeenshire and
from Caithness.
16,828. Was this meal which you examined inferior to the average
quality of Caithness meal?-It was.
16,829. Was it much inferior?-I could not exactly say that, but it
was inferior.
16,830. The sample of tea, No. 2, submitted to you, you have
valued at 2s. 4d. per lb.; and you state at the end of your report,
that of course an allowance must be made for carriage, etc. to
Shetland?-Yes. Of course, tea must be sent to Shetland; they
must get it either from Aberdeen, Edinburgh, Glasgow, or London.
16,831. Is the value of 2s. 4d., which you have put upon it, what
you consider the retail price of that tea would be in Edinburgh?-
Yes.
16,832. Would it be reasonable to charge a much higher price than
that, in respect of the carriage to Shetland?-I think about 1s. per
cwt., or from that to 2s. at the outside, would be the expense of
carriage to Shetland.
16,833. That would make a very slight rise upon the price per
lb.?-It would be a mere trifle; because there would be about 84
to 90 lbs. in a chest, and they could get that sent down for 1s.
16,834. Would you consider 2s. 10d. an extravagant charge for that
in Shetland?-I would; because the value of 2s. 4d. which I put
upon it includes the profit of the merchant here.
16,835. Would 2s. 10d. be an extravagant charge for it in Shetland,
even as a credit price?-Yes; it would be so anywhere.
16,836. The tea No. 3 you also value at 2s. 4d. per lb.: is there any
difference between these two teas?-So far as I could see, I think
they are very like the same value. There is a little difference
between the style of the two teas, but nothing to affect the actual
value of them.
16,837. Could you account for one of them being sold at 81/2d. per
qr. and the other at 7d. per qr. lb.?-No; unless the party may have
bought the one too dear. The merchant must have his profit in any
case; but if he is not a judge of what he is buying, the wholesale
merchant will get a larger profit out of him than another.
16,838. Would you be surprised to be informed that these teas
were sold at these different prices?-I could not be done in that
way.
16,839. But you suppose the Shetland retail merchants may be
done in that way?-They may be ignorant of their business, for
anything I know. There are a great many small people in the
country who carry on such a business as selling tea and who know
very little about it.
16,840. Still you think the teas are of the same quality, although
one of them was sold at 2s. 4d. and the other at 2s. 10d. per lb.?-
So far as I can judge, they are of the same quality; but I could
easily suppose there would be a difference of 6d. per lb. in the way
I have mentioned.
16,841. From a mistake on the part of the retailer?-Yes; or from
his ignorance of his business and the wholesale dealer taking
advantage of that.
16,842. Might he not have purchased the No. 3 tea as a bargain,
and given his customers the advantage of that?-He might have
done that; but it is not likely a Shetland man would do that.
16,843. The sample No. 4 was a specimen of sugar which you
value at 41/2d. per lb.: was that a fair quality of sugar?-Yes; a
very fair quality of sugar at that price.
16,844. Would 6d. per lb. be an extravagant price for it?-It would
be so here.
16,845. Would you consider it an extravagant price in a country
district also?-I think it would be. I think 5d. would be about the
value of that sugar in Shetland; it would not be more.
16,846. No. 5 is a sample of tea also which you value at 2s. 6d. per
lb.?-Yes; it is better than the others.
16,847. Would 2s. 10d. per lb. be an extravagant price for it in
Shetland?-I think it might sell there for 2s. 10d., or even 3s. I
consider it to be a very good tea.
16,848. You value it at 2s. 6d?-Yes, here; but I think 2s. 10d.
would be a fair value for it in Shetland.
16,849. You allow a greater advance upon that tea as sold in
Shetland than you did upon the others?-Yes. The higher the
price of the tea is, generally speaking, there is a larger profit upon
it.
16,850. Do you think a merchant would be fairly entitled to take a
larger profit upon No. 5 than upon No. 2?-Yes; a little.
16,851. Then 2s. 10d. would not be a very extravagant charge for
it?-I don't think it.
16,852. No. 6 is a sample of sugar which you value at 41/2d. per lb.:
was that of the same quality as the other sugar?-There was very
little difference between them.
16,853. Would that be fairly charged at 5d. per lb.?-I think it
would sell for about the same as the other.
16,854. No. 7 is a sample of tobacco which you value at 1s. per
lb.?-Yes; that is the retail price. I cannot say that I am a great
judge of tobacco; but that is the retail price in Edinburgh for
something like the same quality.
16,855. That is 3d. per oz.: would you consider 4d. per oz. an
overcharge for it in a country district?-Yes, I think it would be
1d. of an overcharge. They buy it for about 3s. 4d. per lb., and I
consider that 8d. upon a pound of tobacco is a very fair profit.
16,856. No. 8 is also a sample of tobacco which you value at 4s.
per lb.: was it of the same quality?-So far as I am able to judge
it was.
16,857. No. 9 was a sample of tea which you value at 3s. per lb.:
would 1s. 1d. per qr. lb. be too much to charge for it?-It would be
too much to charge for any of the teas that were submitted to me.
16,858. Was this the best of the teas?-I thought so.
16,859. Was it considerably superior to the others?-I thought so;
but 4s. 4d. would be far too much to charge for it.
16,860. No. 10 is a sample of loaf sugar which you value at 6d.:
would 8d. per lb. be too much for it?-It would be too large a
price to charge for it.
16,861. Even in Shetland?-I think so.
16,862. You have stated in your report that the sample of flour,
No. 11, was not fit for use?-I considered so.
16,863. Do you think that arises from it having been kept too long
after being got from the shop?-No, I don't think it is flour at all.
It seems to be a sort of mixture that I would not like to give to a
pig.
16,864. I now show you the sample No. 11 again: is that [showing]
the flour you refer to?-Yes.
16,865. You don't think it is fit for use at all?-I do not; at least I
don't think it would do in Edinburgh.
16,866. What is it?-My opinion is, that there is good deal of
barley-meal in it, not flour at all.
16,867. Then, if that is the case, it would in your opinion be
overcharged at 2d. per lb.?-Yes. That would be 14d. per peck
of 7 lbs., or 46s. per bag, which is about the price of the best flour
just now.
16,868. What was it in December or January last?-It was cheaper
than it is now.
16,869. Then you think that 2d. per lb. would have been an absurd
charge for that flour at that time?-Perfectly absurd.
[Page 434]
16,870. No. 12 is a sample of rice which you have valued at 21/2d.
per lb.: was that rice of good quality?-Yes; it was of fairish
quality.
16,871. Would 31/2d. be too much for it?-It would be more than
could be got for it here.
16,872. Would it be extravagant to charge that price for it in an
outlying country district?-I think it would. I think 3d. would be
the outside that could be got for it.
16,873. Are you aware that the expense of carriage to some
of these places must be pretty high?-They have direct
communication to Lerwick twice a week, which, as I said
before, cannot exceed 2s. per cwt., and that would be about
1/4d. per lb.
16,874. Supposing it had to be conveyed thirty miles from
Lerwick, that of course would increase the expense?-Of course
it would add to the expense; but I have been speaking of the
direct communication between Edinburgh and Lerwick.
16,875. No. 13 is a sample of soap, which you value at 4d. per lb.:
was that a good quality of soap?-It was middling; but it was in
such a state from being dried up, that one could scarcely judge of
it. However, I think that would be about its value.
16,876. Had it been injured by being kept?-It gets dry and hard
from the moisture getting out of it. If I had seen it cut from the
bar, I might have come nearer a proper judgement of it.
16,877. Do you think 6d. per lb. would be too high for it?-
Decidedly; either for it or any kind of soap.
16,878. You think that even although you had seen it cut from
the bar you could not have put so high a value as that upon it?-I
could not.
16,879. Can you say generally with regard to the samples, that any
of them were deteriorated by having been kept for some time after
leaving the shop?-I do not think they had been much affected.
The sugar may have changed its character a little by being dry, and
also the soap; but I don't think any of the other articles could be
much deteriorated in value by that.
16,880. Would you make any allowance in your estimate of their
value on that account?-No; I just valued them as I saw them,
according to the best of my judgement.
16,881. Do you think it would be fair to make any such
allowance?-No, I don't think it would be necessary.
16,882. Is it usual to charge a higher price for such goods in
country districts than in the town?-Generally it is the case
that a rather higher price is charged. There is less competition
in business, and there can be no doubt that in a country district
you pay more for articles than in town.
16,883. But, on the other hand, rents are lower in the country than
in the town?-No doubt they are; but the amount of business is
usually much less.
16,884. Making full allowance for that, however, do you think that
certain of the articles which have been submitted to you have been
overcharged?-I think the whole of them have been. There is one
thing I may mention, which is, that looking back fifty years ago
they had then no direct communication between Shetland and the
large towns in the country, and the merchants there were longer in
being paid for what they sent south; but now they are paid within
ten days of the time when they send their goods to Edinburgh or
Glasgow or Newcastle, or wherever it is, and that makes a very
considerable difference to these merchants.
16,885. What goods do you refer to?-Any kind of goods that the
islands furnish. If the merchants send eggs, butter, bacon, or
anything of that kind, to people in Edinburgh or Glasgow, they get
a remittance in cash within ten days for the amount of the goods
sent. Formerly that could not be the case, because they had to wait
perhaps for a sailing vessel once a month, or something like that;
and that makes a great difference to the people in Shetland.
16,886. Do you receive large consignments of eggs and butter
from Shetland?-I get large consignments from Caithness, but not
from Shetland.
16,887. But you know that the practice with Shetland is to remit
back at once for that?-Yes, at once.
*Mr. Lewis's report stated the following as his valuation of the
different samples submitted to him:-
No. 1 Oatmeal, per 7 lbs. £0 1 0
No. 2. Tea, per lb., 0 2 4
No. 3. Tea, do., 0 2 4
No. 4. Sugar, do., 0 0 41/2
No. 5. Tea, do., 0 2 6
No. 6. Sugar, do., 0 0 41/2
No. 7. Tobacco, do., 0 4 0
No. 8. Tobacco, do., 0 4 0
No. 9. Tea, do., 0 3 0
No. 10. Loaf Sugar, do., 0 0 6
No. 11. Flour, not fit for use.
No. 12. Rice, per lb., 0 0 21/2
No. 13. Soap, do., 0 0 4
The samples Nos. 1, 2, 3, and 4 were those purchased at Mossbank
by the witness A.T. Jamieson, 7954; Nos. 5 and 6 were samples
obtained by the Commissioner personally, at Messrs. Spence &
Co. at Uyea Sound; No. 7 was obtained at the shop at Grutness;
No. 8 from the shop of Mr. Gavin Henderson, Scousborough; and
Nos. 9 to 13 were produced by the witness Charlotte Johnston, as
having been purchased at the shop of Mr. Morgan Laurenson,
Lochend.
Edinburgh, April 18, 1872, MAGNUS MOWAT, examined.
16,888. Are you a boat-builder in Newhaven?-I am.
16,889. Do you do a large business there in building boats for
fishermen?-Yes, I do a pretty large business.
16,890. Do you know the style of boat that is built in Shetland?-
Yes. I have seen one or more of them at Wick, when I was there at
the herring fishing.
16,891. You mean the six-oared boat of about 21 or 22 feet
keel?-Yes. I have seen one at least of those dimensions.
16,892. Do you build boats of that kind yourself?-No. Our boats
are much superior to the boats there.
16,893. Can you say at what price you could build a of 22 feet keel
in the style of the Shetland boat?-I could hardly say.
16,894. What do you get for a boat of that size, such as you are in
the habit of building?-£22, 10s. That is just for the shell of the
boat, with the ironwork attached to it. The men have the masts,
sails, and oars to supply on their own responsibility.
16,895. How much would the mast and ropes and other fittings
cost, including the sail?-I don't know what quantity of ropes they
would require, but with the yawls which are used in fishing in the
Firth of Forth, it generally costs about £1, 10s. to fit them with
mast and oars, and the necessary spar, without the sail. The sail, I
think, would cost about £4.
16,896. You have seen a Shetland boat: have you any idea whether
such a boat as is used there would cost more or less than a boat
such as you have been speaking of?-The Shetland boats of the
same size would not be half the value of our boats here.
16,897. Why?-Because the timber is inferior, and they are
lighter. I might have 24 timbers in a side, when they would
only have 10 or 12.
16,898. Are your boats built in the same style as the Shetland
boats? Are they clinker-built?-Yes; but I don't suppose they
use the same materials. I think it is Norwegian timber they use;
and if that is so, the cost of them would be considerably less.
16,899. About how much less would it be?-I cannot calculate
that exactly, because wages there are less than they are here.
16,900. What would be the difference in the cost of the timber?
Would it be so much as one half?-No. Larch is about 14s. per
100 feet of planking, and the timber they use would be from 8s. to
10s.
16,901. I suppose boat-builders' wages are considerably less in
Shetland and Caithness than here?-Yes; they are from 6s. to 8s.
a week less, at any rate. I pay 24s. here, and I should think that
16s. would be about their figure there.
16,902. How long will one of your boats last?-From seventeen to
twenty years.
16,903. Is that the ordinary calculation as to the life of a boat?-It
depends a great deal upon the kind of work they are put to. In
some cases they do not last so long; but if they are preserved from
accident, they may last for that time.
16,904. Will a Shetland boat, such as you have seen, last its long
as that?-It will not last so long, according to my judgement.
16,905. Suppose it were used only for three or four months in the
summer, would it last longer than it would do if it were more
used?-Certainly it would.
16,906. But you think it would not last so long in any case its
seventeen or eighteen years?-No. The frame is much weaker:
there are fewer ribs in it than in our boats; because, while in a
Shetland boat there might be a rib every 2 or 3 feet, I might have
them 10 or 12 [Page 435] inches apart, and of course the ribs are
the strength of the boat.
16,907. Would twelve or fourteen years be the outside of the life
of a Shetland boat?-I would suppose that would be about as long
as they could run them with safety.
16,908. About how much do you think it takes to keep up a boat of
that size?-1s. a day during the time she is at work would keep her
up amply.
16,909. Suppose she were at work for 100 days in the year, that
would be £5. Do you mean to say that for every year a boat is
at work she will require £5 for repairs to keep her up?-The
Newhaven fishermen allow that for their 25 feet yawls. A sail is
not supposed to last above five years, or not more than three years
without repairs; and then they have the chance of breaking oars, or
any other accident that may occur. The allowance of 1s. a day
may be it little too much to cover all that; but there is an eighth
share allowed for the repairs of a boat in the case of the large
decked boats.
16,910. Are these the new boats which you have now got at
Newhaven?-No, they are the boats which were built in Caithness
nine or ten years ago. There is an eighth or a ninth share allowed
to the owner to keep them up.
16,911. Is that a ninth share of the fish taken?-Yes, or of the
money; but these Caithness boats are much dearer in price and
of better value than the Shetland boats.
16,912. From whom do you generally take your orders for building
boats? Is it from the fishermen or from the curers?-From the
fishermen altogether. I built one for Westray, in Orkney, last year,
and I also built a little one that went to Stromness.
16,913. Were these open boats or half-decked?-They were small
boats of about 18 feet keel. The one that went to Westray, I built
her for £14, because she was so light.
16,914. Do you think that £20 would be about the cost of one of
the Shetland six-oared boats ready for sea?-I would think they
were not too dear at that, if the sail and everything was provided.
16,915. Do you know anything about the practice of hiring boats
to fishermen on any part of the coast?-Yes. I was twelve years at
the herring fishing at Wick, and I knew about it there.
16,916. But the boats you had there were of a different class?-
Yes, they were far better boats than the Shetland boats. I had a
boat myself that cost me £94.
16,917. Are you able to say what would be a fair hire to charge for
one of the Shetland six-oared boats?-No; it depends altogether on
the material of which the boat is made. If I had seen the boat, I
could at once have given an opinion.
16,918. Suppose a fisherman was hiring one of the boats such
as you have seen for a season, that is, for about 31/2 months in
summer, what would be a fair rate of hire to pay, supposing the
boat had cost £20?-The boat would require about one half of a
man's share, whatever was the income, unless they made a bargain
for so many pounds for the three months, or the two months, or
whatever period was fixed.
16,919. Would £2, 10s. be an extravagant hire for that period?-I
don't think it would.
Edinburgh, April 18, 1872, DONALD DAVIDSON, examined.
16,920. What are you?-I am a fish-curer in Burntisland.
16,921 Were you for a long time in the employment of Mr.
Methuen?-Yes.
16,922. Have you again gone into his employment?-Yes.
16,923. Are you acquainted with the system of agreements
between the fish-merchants and fishermen throughout all the
Scotch fishings, both on the east and west coast?-Yes; I have
had a good deal of experience of them.
16,924. Had you anything to do with Mr. Methuen's fishing
transactions in Shetland?-Not particularly. I occasionally sent
stock there when ordered, such as empty barrels and salt to supply
the stations.
16,925. How long is it since these stations were given up?-About
two years ago, I think.
16,926. Do you refer to the stations in the Sandwick district?-
Yes.
16,927. Had Mr. Methuen any shop there?-No.
16,928. Do you know how the fishermen there got their supplies
during the fishing season?-I understand that a party who held the
land where the fishermen resided agreed for the boats with the
proprietor, and paid the proprietor at the end of the season, and
then the proprietor settled with the men. If they required any
goods during the fishing season, I think they got a line from the
proprietor to go to the shops in Lerwick or Scalloway for them.
16,929. But I thought it was Mr. Methuen who agreed the boats?-
I think that most of the boats that he had were agreed in that way.
16,930. Had he an agent in Shetland?-Yes. The men who fished
for him belonged to a certain district, and the proprietor of that
district had a control over the boats, and it was him who arranged
with Mr. Methuen.
16,931. Do you know whether Mr. Methuen's agent there was in
the habit of giving lines to the fishermen to enable them to get
supplies from the shops in Lerwick?-I am not aware of that.
16,932. I thought that was what you said?-No; it was the
proprietor of the land in the district where Mr. Methuen had
the fishing station that gave the lines to the fishermen.
16,933. Was that Mr. Bruce of Sandlodge?-Yes.
16,934. Were Mr. Methuen's arrangements to get these boats to
deliver their fish to him all made with the proprietor?-Yes.
16,935. Then he had no direct agreement with the fishermen?-I
understand not.
16,936. Have you any personal knowledge about that?-The
information I received was from the men who had charge there
for Mr. Methuen.
16,937. Are any of these men now in Edinburgh?-I don't think
they are.
16,938. Do you know whether Mr. Methuen was in the habit of
making payments to the fishermen during the fishing season, or
whether all his payments to the fishermen were made at the end
of the season?-I understand that if any advance was given to the
men, it was given through the proprietor, Mr. Bruce.
16,939. What is the nature of the contract entered into with the
men employed in the cod and ling fishing in Lewis and the western
islands?-The boats are agreed at a certain time, sometimes in
March, to commence to fish about 20th May, and they get so much
per cran and so much of bounty.
16,940. Have you made such contracts yourself, both on your own
and on Mr. Methuen's account?-Yes; but principally for Mr.
Methuen.
16,941. Do the men receive the bounty at the commencement, or
before the commencement of the season?-The way in which it is
done is this: the fish-curer and the fishermen make the contract in
March, and then the men generally get the bounty a fortnight or a
month after the time of agreeing, or at all events they generally get
it before they commence to fish.
16,942. What is the purpose of giving the bounty?-I suppose
there is no particular reason for it. I understand some curers
like to give it in order to procure the best boats, and to be an
inducement to the men to contract with them.
16,943. Is the price per cran invariably fixed before the beginning
of the season?-If the boats are agreed, as they generally are on
the Moray Firth-
16,944. But I am speaking of the Lewis fishery alone. You
mentioned about a price per cran, which I suppose applies only
to the herring fishing, while I was asking you about the cod
and ling fishing?-I don't know [Page 436] much about the
arrangements with the cod and ling fishermen; but I understand
they get it certain amount per cwt. or per dozen of fish.
16,945. I thought you said you had made arrangements with the
Lewis and West Highland fishermen?-Not for the cod and ling
fishing. I have made arrangements with them for the herring
fishing; but I understand the bargains are made on the same
principle.
16,946. Have you made bargains for the herring fishing at the
Lewis?-Yes. I have agreed boats at the Lewis for Mr. Methuen.
16,947. Were these boats belonging to the Lewis, and were the
fishermen living there?-Yes; both the fishermen and the boats
belonged to the Lewis.
16,948. In that case, when did the settlement take place?-I was
there two seasons, and I settled with them generally at the end of
the season-in the end of June.
16,949. Did the men get advances before the end of the season to
any extent?-Yes; they generally got pretty large advances.
16,950. In what form were these advances given?-In some cases
they got them in nets and ropes and bark, and sometimes in cash
too.
16,951. Do you supply them with the nets and bark, and other
things they require?-Yes; that is the general practice in
Stornoway.
16,952. Do they also get supplies of food and meal before the end
of the season?-Yes; sometimes.
16,953. Where do they get them?-It is generally from the curers
that they get their supplies of nets and ropes, so on.
16,954. But Mr. Methuen has not a shop in Stornoway?-No; but
he generally supplies the fishermen there with these things if they
cannot get them otherwise. He does not prohibit them from
getting them from the native merchants; but he usually keeps a
supply for any one who may require them.
16,955. Does he supply any meal at all?-None that I am aware of.
16,956. But what I asked you was, whether the men required
supplies of meal during the fishing season, if you know where they
get them?-I suppose they get them from the native merchants.
16,957. Do you know whether the curers have to make such
supplies or to guarantee such supplies in the Lewis?-Yes. I
understand they give the men a line or a letter stating that they
will be responsible for the price.
16,958. Have you had to do that in your own experience?-No; but
I am aware that it is done at Wick, and I think at Stornoway too.
16,959. Do you know of any cases at Stornoway in which it had to
be done?-No.
16,960. Are the fishermen in the Lewis very much indebted to the
curers?-They are.
16,961. Is that chiefly for nets and boats?-Yes. In some cases the
fish-curers give them boats, and perhaps nets too, and when they
don't make it good fishing they get into debt in that way.
16,962. Have you had any experience at all of the cod and ling
fishery?-No.
16,963. Have you not had any management of the fisheries in Fife
or on the east coast of Scotland?-I have been at Fraserburgh and
Rosehearty, but that was principally in connection with the herring
fishing.
16,964. Are you not acquainted with the cod and ling fishing on
the cast coast of Fife?-No; but I understand that in Fife the fish
are sold each day. The supply regulates the demand; and the men
are not generally agreed at all.
16,965. Would there, in your opinion, be any difficulty in settling
for the fish as they are delivered, in the western islands and in
Shetland?-No. Perhaps it might take a little time to bring about
the proper arrangements; but I think it would work better if such a
system were adopted.
16,966. Would it work better in the Wick herring fishery too?-I
see no reason why it should not.
16,967. Would it be more convenient for the curers?-They would
not make such large profits, I would suppose.
16,968. Why would the system of paying for the fish as they are
delivered lessen the curers' profit?-My experience, on the east
coast at least, has been, that the free boats are much more
independent than the others. The men seem to have a better
class of boats, and better material generally, when they can get
their money daily or weekly or monthly, as they may call for it.
These men can get their money daily if they wish it.
16,969. I thought these free boats were settled with at the end of
the season, just like the others: is not that so?-Not generally.
They don't have a regular place for delivering their fish. They
may deliver them at one place today, and at another place next
day, and when they fish in that way they generally collect their
money daily; but at some places, such as North Sunderland, where
the Fisherrow boats fish, they sometimes do not take the whole
amount until the end of the season, except the small amount they
get in supplies.
16,970. Do you say that at some places the free boats are paid just
as they deliver their fish?-Yes.
16,971. Where is that?-At Burntisland, for instance. When boats
come up from Anstruther or Buckhaven, they deliver their fish,
and we pay them on delivery, the same day.
16,972. Are these fish for curing, or for the fresh market?-For
both.
16,973. Does that lead to any difficulty?-None whatever. I have
had about twenty-eight years' experience of that system of paying
daily.
16,974. I suppose it saves you keeping accounts with the
fishermen?-We keep an account of the fish we have received,
but we have no running accounts with the men.
16,975. What kind of fish do you refer to as being delivered in that
way at Burntisland?-Principally herrings.
16,976. Do you take delivery of cod and haddocks in that way
too?-No; it is very seldom that boats come up in that way with
them. When they do, they sell them to the inhabitants and get cash
for them.
16,977. Have you had any management of the fisheries at
Anstruther?-Yes; I was two winters there, during the time of the
winter fishing, buying herrings, and we paid in the same way as we
do at Burntisland-just when the fishermen liked to call for their
money, which was generally weekly. Some boats were paid daily,
but others did not come asking for the money until the end of the
week.
16,978. The quantity of fish delivered was marked down in the
fish-book each time?-Yes.
16,979. So that you knew exactly how much the men had to get?-
Yes. The price was extended in the book.
16,980. Had the price been fixed at the beginning of the season?-
No. The price was fixed daily, according to the market, the supply
regulating the demand. That is the system at Burntisland, and at
Anstruther, Pittenweem, and St. Monance.
16,981. Are the fishermen at these places in a prosperous
condition under that system?-I think so.
16,982. Has there been a material change in their circumstances
within your recollection?-Yes; a very great change. The boats
and material have been very much improved.
16,983. Were the men at one time considerably in debt?-I don't
know if they were much in debt, but they did not have the same
class of boats, nor so good material, such as nets, and the like of
that. Their boats are much better now than they used to be.
16,984. Do the boats there belong to the men themselves?-Yes.
16,985. Do you know whether many of the men in that district are
now in debt to the curers or merchants?-A few of them may be
but they are not so generally.
16,986. Was there formerly a system there of settling at longer
intervals?-Yes. I think that generally they did not make a final
settlement with the local curers until the end of the season; but
there have been so many strangers going there within the last few
years, that it seems to have been adopted as a rule to [Page 437]
pay daily, or when the fishermen like to call for the money, which
is at least once a week.
16,987. I suppose the railway has made a difference in that
respect?-Yes; it has made a great change in the value of the fish.
16,988. Is the cod and haddock fishery prosecuted to great extent
at Anstruther and Pittenweem?-It is.
16,989. Is it prosecuted chiefly for the fresh market?-Yes,
principally.
16,990. Is it carried on with the same boats which are used in the
herring fishing?-No. I think they are generally a larger class of
boats-decked boats-that are used for that fishing. A number of
the fishermen go in the same boats which they use in the herring
fishing, but some of them have a class of boats in which they go
out to sea for two or three days, and these are decked and very
comfortable.
16,991. Do you buy any of these fish for curing?-Not generally;
but Mr. Methuen does at Anstruther and the other stations there.
He keeps an establishment at Anstruther.
16,992. Does he cure herrings only, or also cod and haddocks?-
He buys cod and ling, and sends them away fresh, I think, and he
buys a good number of haddocks and smokes them. Haddocks are
what he buys principally there.
16,993. How are these settled for?-I am not quite sure, but I think
it is once a week.
16,994. There is no yearly settlement?-No.
16,995. Do you know any reason why a settlement once a week or
at delivery should not be made in districts like Shetland or the
Lewis, which you know better?-No. I think the fishermen prefer
to get their money once a week, and the curers now like it as well
too. They find less trouble with that system, and the fishermen are
more independent and do not require advances as they did before.
16,996. Do you think that system of frequent payments has
enabled the fishermen to do without advances to the same extent
as they required them formerly?-I think so.
16,997. Would there be any practical difficulty in settling in that
way in remote and thinly inhabited districts, such as Shetland and
the Lewis, where the stations may be a long way from towns?-
There would be a difficulty, to a certain extent. One great
difficulty would be in getting cash daily, but they might perhaps
get it weekly. I think, in the western islands, perhaps once a week
might be adopted as a very good plan, if it could be managed, and
they could arrange to get their money from Stornoway.
16,998. The man might get an order to receive the money due to
him for his fish at the principal countinghouse of the merchant?-
Yes. The general system adopted with Mr. Methuen's boats, and
those of the other curers belonging to Wick, is, that they generally
agree so many boats belonging to the Lewis, and so many
belonging to Caithness, and they return to the Wick fishing after
leaving the Lewis; then at the end of the Wick fishing they are
settled with for both fishings.
16,999. Have you been in the habit of supplying boats to
fishermen?-When I was at Stornoway for Mr. Methuen, I
generally supplied them with nets and bark, and they got boats
in some cases too.
17,000. What kind of boats were these?-They got the Caithness
boats; but that is not so much the practice now. The fishermen
seem to get them from the boat-builders now, and make their own
arrangements for them.
17,001. Have you seen any of the Shetland boats?-Yes, I have
seen them at Wick. I think they generally have four oars.
17,002. Have you seen any of the six-oared boats?-Yes. I think
there are two or three classes of them. They have a small boat,
then a four-oared boat, and then the larger six-oared boat.
17,003. But they depend most on the six-oared boats now: have
you any knowledge of the cost of such boats?-There are very few
of the Shetland boats that come to Wick; but I have seen some of
the Orkney boats there, which I believe are very similar, and I
think a boat of that kind, with masts, sails, and oars complete,
would cost about £50.
17,004. Were these boats half-decked?-There was no deck on
them when I saw them. They were all open.
17,005. What was the size of them?-I would suppose about 24
feet keel.
17,006. However, you don't know much about the Shetland
boats?-No; it is the Orkney boats that I have seen coming to
Wick.
17,007. Do you purchase salt for curing your fish?-It is generally
supplied from Liverpool.
17,008. What is the usual price that is paid for salt for curing?-It
varies in price. Last year I think it would be about 12s. per ton in
Liverpool.
17,009. Have you been able to get salt in Liverpool for curing as
low as 7s. per ton?-No. I have never bought it, but I have an idea
about what it costs. It is generally from 9s. to 11s.; I never heard
of it being under 9s.
17,010. How do you take it up to the north?-By sailing vessels.
17,011. What is the freight?-We have paid 9s., and as low as 7s.
6d.; but about 8s. is the general thing to Burntisland. It is brought
from Liverpool round by the north of Scotland and up the Firth.
17,012. Do you think 10s. would be about the freight to
Shetland?-I would suppose so; but we generally get the
freights cheaper to Burntisland than they would be there, as
it is going to a loading port. Perhaps about 12s. would be a
fair freight to Lerwick, because the vessel has to come away in
ballast again.
17,013. What allowance would you make for wastage, if you were
calculating the cost of curing?-About 21/2 per cent. is the usual
thing; if there is more waste than that, then we charge the captain.
17,014. Have you ever made any estimate of the cost of curing a
ton of cod or ling?-No; but I would suppose that in Shetland it
would cost about £1 per ton to split them and cure them and dry
them. There is a great deal of work connected with it.
Edinburgh, April 18, 1872, CATHERINE BROWN, examined.
17,015. Have you been a knitter of Shetland goods for a long
time?-Yes, for about fifteen years.
17,016. Did you live in Lerwick at one time?-Yes.
17,017. Were you employed to knit a shawl for the Princess of
Wales?-Yes; a cloth or burnous.
17,018. Have you an appointment as knitter to Her Royal
Highness?-Yes.
17,019. I believe some of your shawls obtained high prizes at the
London Exhibition of 1870?-Yes.
17,020. Are you now going to begin business in Edinburgh?-I
think so.
17,021. Have your knitted for Mr. Robert Sinclair?-I have sold to
him. I have always been in the habit of knitting with my own wool
and selling my goods.
17,022. Have you never knitted with the merchants' wool at all?-
No.
17,023. Have you seen Mr. Sinclair within the last ten days?-Yes.
17,024. Are you aware that he and some other merchants in
Shetland desired that you should be examined before this
Commission?-I know that he wished me to be examined.
17,025. I have been asked by Mr. Sinclair to put certain questions
to you on the subject of your dealings with him. Do you know
whether, as a usual thing, the merchants in Lerwick pay higher or
lower prices for hosiery articles than you could get from private
individuals?-They pay lower prices.
17,026. Is that taking the price in goods?-I never sold for goods,
always for money.
17,027. Did you never do that from the very first?-I was in the
habit of selling to private individuals then.
17,028. Did you never sell for goods at all?-When I wished
goods, I exchanged my articles for them; but I got money
whenever I wanted it.
17,029. How did you succeed in obtaining cash for [Page 438]
your hosiery whenever you wished?-The merchants always
came to me and asked for the goods. I did not go to them.
17,030. But you were not always such a good knitter as you are
now. Did you not go through any apprenticeship?-Not with the
merchants.
17,031. Was the merchants' money price for the goods lower than
the money price which you got from private individuals?-Yes. I
always gave it to them a little lower, perhaps 1s. or 2s. or 3s. less
on a shawl, than I asked from a private individual.
17,032. Did you sell your shawls for a lower price to the
merchants in Lerwick than you sell them for to the merchants
in Edinburgh?-No. I sell them at the same price to the
merchants in Lerwick as to the merchants in Edinburgh.
17,033. Have you ever sold a shawl to a merchant in Edinburgh?-
Yes.
17,034. Have you not got more for it from him than you would
have got from a merchant in Lerwick?-That was some years ago.
17,035. Was Mr. White the merchant in Edinburgh to whom you
sold?-Yes.
17,036. Do you know whether knitters in Lerwick, who depend
entirely on knitting for their living, are able to get money for their
work?-I do not know about any person but myself.
17,037. Did you ever hear of lines or goods being sold by knitters
which they had got for their hosiery?-No, not lines. I have heard
of them selling their goods, but I could not say whether it was true
or not. I have not heard of that often.
17,038. When a merchant buys a fine shawl or a neck-tie or a lot
of veils from a knitter, do you know whether he sells them in the
south for a larger price than he pays?-I don't know anything
about that.
17,039. Have you ever bought shawls or veils in Edinburgh?-No.
17,040. Or priced them?-No.
17,041. Are the prices of goods in the Lerwick shops generally
higher or lower than the prices you pay here for such goods, for
instance, as cottons or petticoats-I am a stranger here, and I have
not bought anything yet, except a piece of velvet, and I paid the
same price for it here as I would have done in Lerwick.
Edinburgh, April 18, 1872, CHARLES FLEMING, examined.
17,042. What are you?-I am a draper to trade, and I am the buyer
in that department for Messrs. M'Laren, Son, & Co., High Street,
Edinburgh.
17,043. Is that a wholesale as well as a retail house?-Yes.
17,044. How many years' experience have you had in the
business?-Eighteen years. I have been two years in my
present position as buyer.
17,045. I suppose you are one of the largest buyers in that line
in Scotland?-I believe we are, for the retail trade; but we are
wholesale as well.
17,046. Do you buy for the wholesale trade, or only for the
retail?-I buy for both.
17,047. I show you a piece of half-bleached cotton: what is the
usual price of that as an article of retail trade?-It depends upon
the width. There are a number of different widths, but the usual
widths made are 29, 32, and 36 inches. It is also made 40 inches
and wider, but these are not usually sold.
17,048. Can you tell from the sample what the width has been?-
No.
17,049. What would be the proper retail price for the 29 inch
width?-I should say 21/2d.
17,050. Would that be the fair price in a country district?-I think
it would be a very fair price.
17,051. Would it not be legitimate to charge a somewhat higher
rate in a remote district of the Highlands?-I think not, for an
article such as this. That would be the outside stretch that it would
be worth at the present time for 29 inches.
17,052. Is there anything narrower than that?-I am not aware of
anything. That is the trade term for them; but I don't know that
they exactly measure the width which is named.
17,053. Would you be surprised to be asked 41/2d. a yard for
that?-I think it would be very much out of the way.
17,054. What would be a fair price for it if it were 32 inches
wide?-About 31/4d. a yard; and about 33/4d. for 36 inches.
17,055. In all these valuations, are you assuming that the article is
sold in a country district, and not in a large city establishment
where there is a rapid turnover and great competition?-Yes. I
think that usually very little difference is made on that class of
stuff, wherever it is sold.
17,056. Is it a very common sort of article?-It is the most
common thing of the kind that is made. It is generally used for
an inter-lining for different parts of ladies' dress, being put
between two other materials.
17,057. What would it be used for by working people in the
country?-It might be used for lining dress skirts, or such as that.
17,058. I show you another piece of half-bleached cotton: is that
also made of different widths?-Yes. The value of that, at 29
inches, would be 4d. a yard; at 32 inches, 51/4d.; and at 36 inches,
61/2d. It is made also in greater widths, but not usually sold, unless
for some special purpose.
17,059. Of what greater width is it made?-It is made in 40
inches, and 48 and 54.
17,060. Would the price rise in proportion to the widths in the
same ratio as in the three widths you have already mentioned?-
Yes.
17,061. But 36 inches is the widest that is commonly sold?-Yes.
17,062. Is that used by fishermen for making oil-cloth?-It may be
used for that purpose.
17,063. If used in that way, what width would most likely be
selected?-36 inches would be the best width for cutting out. It is
the most usual width made in this class of stuff for almost any
purpose. Although I am terming it 36 inches, it may measure less,
perhaps 341/2 or 35 inches; and the same proportion with the other widths.
17,064. For 36 inches wide, would 8d. a yard be too high a price
for that cotton?-I think it would be very dear at 8d. a yard, even
at the present price of cotton.
17,065. Was the price in January higher or lower?-It was lower
in January than now. There has been an advance of about 5 per
cent. on cotton goods since then, and there has been a difference of
10 per cent. since October last. Cotton goods were very steady all
last season until then.
17,066. I show you a piece of shirting: what value do you put upon
that in the same way?-It is usually made in two widths, 32 and 36
inches. Those, of course, are the same as calicoes; they don't
measure exactly what the makers term them, but they are known
as these widths. The 32 inches is the width principally used, and
this class of stuff is about 63/4d. at the present time. I daresay had
it been bought a couple of months ago it would have been 61/2d. In
the other width it would be about 1d. more.
17,067. Would 1s. a yard be a high price for that?-It would be a
very exorbitant price, in my judgement.
17,068. Would it be so in any part of the kingdom?-It would be
so in any part of the world, I should say, either in or out of the
kingdom. It would be a very extraordinary price to charge.
17,069. Is there no greater width than 36 inches?-Not in this
class of stuff, of this make. This is Glasgow-made stripe, and they
don't make them wider than 36. There is a Kirkcaldy stripe too,
but it is different class from this altogether.
17,070. Is that stuff used for making shirts for men?-That is what
it is principally used for. Country people also use it for what they
term short-gowns and children's dresses, and different things of
that kind; but its principal use is for working-men's shirts.
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