WILLIAM ROBERTSON, examined.
10,847. You are cashier and principal clerk to Mr. Joseph Leask,
merchant, shipowner, and agent in Lerwick?-I am.
10,848. You have been for nineteen years in his business, during
which time you have been employed in shipping and discharging
seamen, engaging and settling with fishermen, and employing and
paying hundreds of labouring people?-I have.
10,849. You are also fully acquainted with the barter system as it
prevails in Shetland?-I am.
10,850. I understand you desire to be examined with regard to the
Report furnished to the Board of Trade in September 1870 by Mr.
Hamilton, as well as on certain questions and answers in the
Report of the Commission, of which you have given me a list?-I
do.
10,851. Will you give me, in the first place, a general description
of Mr. Leask's business? He is, I believe, a proprietor of land to
some extent in Shetland?-Yes, and he is also a pretty large
proprietor of house property in town.
10,852. What estates does he hold?-He has estates in West and
South Yell, Ulsta and Coppister.
10,853. Has Ulsta been long in his possession?-I think about ten
years, but I could not exactly say.
10,854. What is the extent of his estates in Yell?-There are about
fifty tenants on the Yell property, and the annual value is upwards
of £200.
10,855. I understand that in Yell Mr. Leask now carries on the
fishing to a considerable extent?-He has only commenced in the
past season to carry out the fishing in Yell on his own account.
10,856. Has he a station and shop there?-He has now. He
commenced them at the beginning of this year at Ulsta. The
shopkeeper is William Hughson.
10,857. How many boats were employed there last year?-Four.
10,858. Are the fishermen bound to fish for the proprietor?-They
are not bound to fish. They requested Mr. Leask to employ them
last year, and it was at their own request he did so.
10,859. Who was the fish-curer at that station previously?-
William Jack Williamson, and James Johnston. Williamson lived
at Ulsta, and Johnston at West Yell Sound.
10,860. Was the request you have mentioned from the fishermen
to Mr. Leask to employ them a written one?-No; it was verbal.
10,861. How was it conveyed to you?-By the people themselves.
10,862. By how many of them?-By about half dozen or thereby; I
cannot state the number exactly.
10,863. Did they come to Lerwick for the purpose?-They always
come to Lerwick in November to settle their rent accounts; and in
November 1870 a few of them requested Mr. Leask to build boats
for them, and they would fish to him rather than to Johnston and
Williamson.
10,864. Had Williamson given up business at that time?-No.
10,865. Had he still a shop and curing station at Ulsta?-Yes.
10,866. In consequence of the request made to you by the men,
what steps were taken to take over the business at Ulsta?-The
business was not taken over at all. Mr. Leask simply built boats
for three crews, and employed three masters to obtain crews at
Ulsta and West Yell. One boat belonged to Ulsta, and the other
two to West Yell.
10,867. Did Mr. Williamson hold premises from Mr. Leask on the
Ulsta estate?-Yes.
10,868. He paid rent for them, but he had no lease?-No.
10,869. Did he receive notice that his tenure was at an end?-Yes;
he received notice of that verbally two years or year and a half
before he had to leave.
10,870. Had he received it before the verbal requisition was made
by the fishermen to Mr. Leask that he should take them into his
service?-I think so; but I could not be sure.
10,871. Was it in the contemplation of Mr. Leask to commence
business there himself, at the time when he gave Williamson the
first notice to leave?-I am not quite sure. I think he was not sure
about it himself, whether he would commence business there on
his own account, or let the premises to another party. The matter
had not been fully considered; but I think Mr. Leask had it in
contemplation to make some change, because the Yell people
were not altogether satisfied with the state of matters at that time.
10,872. And the requisition made by the six fishermen had the
effect of bringing him to a decision?-I suppose it had; at any rate
it helped. The men were all of opinion that they would be better
served by Mr. Leask, than by any person whom he might send
there.
10,873. Were the fishermen under any obligation to fish for
Williamson?-I don't think they were bound.
10,874. Was there any understanding when he took his premises,
that the fishermen on that estate should fish for him?-No. Mr.
Williamson was on the estate before Mr. Leask bought it; and after
Mr. Leask bought it the men were at liberty to go wherever they
pleased, either to fish at home or to go to Greenland, or to go
south, or anywhere they liked. They were not bound in any way.
10,875. But when they did go to the home fishing, were they at
liberty to sell their fish to any one they chose?-The boats
belonged to Williamson, and of course they would be bound to
give him the fish.
10,876. But were they at liberty to go in the boats of any other
fish-curer?-Yes; they were at perfect liberty to fish for whom
they pleased, so far as the landlord was concerned.
10,877. Was there any written lease of the premises to Williamson
at any time?-He never had any written lease, so far as I am
aware.
10,878. If there had been a written lease at the time when Mr.
Leask bought the property, you would have been aware of it?-I
think so.
10,879. It would have come into your hands along with the other
writings relative to the estate?-Yes.
10,880. Either before or after the application of the West Yell
tenants to Mr. Leask, was any intimation made to the rest of the
tenants on that estate, or to the whole of them, that he (Mr. Leask)
was about to open a shop there himself, and to receive fish?-The
men who made the representation to Mr. Leask were given to
understand that he would build boats for them; and when they
went home they spread the report that Mr. Leask intended to do
that.
10,881. Was any written intimation made to the tenants to that
effect?-None that I know of.
10,882. Or any verbal intimation other than you have now
mentioned?-The masters of the boats were to go and engage their
own crews. We appointed masters, and they went among the
tenants to engage whom they could get.
10,883. What instructions were given to the masters?-They were
engaged on the same terms as usual, and they were to be paid in
the same way.
10,884. But what instructions were given to them about telling the
tenants?-There were no special instructions given at all.
[Page 266]
10,885. Were they desired to inform the tenants that Mr. Leask
was undertaking the fishing himself, and that he expected the
tenants to engage in his boats' crews?-At that time Mr. Leask
could get more men amongst his tenants than he could employ,
and there was no need for any pressure. More men were anxious
to go than he had boats for at that time.
10,886. Had you any correspondence with Mr. Williamson about
him leaving Ulsta?-Yes, a very long correspondence, and rather
an amusing one. He implored Mr. Leask to allow him to remain
for another year, as his business was so extensive that he could not
wind it up in so short a time.
10,887. What was Mr. Leask's objection to allow him to
remain?-He required the premises as a dwellinghouse for the
incoming man, William Hughson; and of course it would not do
to have opposition.
10,888. But he had made no arrangements for that at the time
when Williamson was requested to prepare for removal?-He
had not.
10,889. Then when was the correspondence? Was it when
Williamson first got the notice or afterwards?-It was not until
long afterwards. I think Williamson was of opinion that Mr.
Leask would not remove him, and he trusted to that until the
very last. I think he had some idea of getting the new premises,
notwithstanding what had passed.
10,890. Were new premises built?-Yes, they were built last year.
They were begun in June and only completed in December 1871.
10,891. Was Williamson still carrying on the fishing in 1871 while
these new premises were being built?-Yes. He was fishing and
carrying on the business the same as before.
10,892. How many men had he fishing for him last year at
Ulsta?-I think he had about the same number of boats that he
had formerly.
10,893. And he still had the same premises?-He occupied the
same premises all along. The premises which Mr. Leask is
occupying now for business purposes are altogether new.
Williamson continued to occupy the old premises until November
1871, when he had to leave.
10,894. Where did he manage to get fishermen when Mr. Leask
had put on three new boats?-I think he got some from Mr.
M'Queen's estate, and also some of Mr. Leask's own tenants.
10,895. Does Mr. Leask intend to put on a larger number of boats
this year?-I think he intends to put on one or two more.
10,896. But the boats' crews that he employed last year had
formerly been in the employment of Williamson and Johnston?-
Yes.
10,897. Is Johnston still carrying on business?-Yes, he is carrying
on business at Sound, in West Yell, where he has a small property.
10,898. Do you know how many boats he has?-I think he has
two but I am not sure. Some of Mr. Leask's tenants fished for
Johnston last year also.
10,899. Will Mr. Leask's tenants be allowed to fish for Johnston
and Williamson in future?-I don't think they would do so if Mr.
Leask would give them employment.
10,900. But will they be allowed to fish for any other than Mr.
Leask?-I don't think Mr. Leask would force any one to fish for
him.
10,901. The tenants have received no intimation to the contrary?-
No.
10,902. And no hint?-No hint whatever. In fact, there were
tenants applying in November last for new boats, and requesting
Mr. Leask to build new boats for them, because there are a good
many men who would like to be employed by him, in preference to
being employed by Johnston or any other body.
10,903. Do you know whether many of the men were in debt to
Williamson when he left Ulsta?-I don't know.
10,904. Was that one of the reasons why Williamson was anxious
not to quit in a hurry?-He alleged that reason; but I am of opinion
that there were not many of them in debt.
10,905. Did he ask you to relieve him of any of these debts?-
Never.
10,906. Do you suppose he has any chance of recovering any debts
that may exist now?-Certainly he has. The men have all got
effects of some kind or another, so that he may easily take them
into court and recover what they are due him. They are all in very
good circumstances; there are none of them who could not pay
their debts.
10,907. Has Mr. Leask any property in Sandsting?-Yes; he has
the property of Sand and Inner Sand. There are between 40 and 50
tenants upon it.
10,908. Are most of them engaged in the summer fishing?-A
good many of them are. Some of them fish for Garriock & Co.,
and some for Mr. Leask, and I think some for Charles Nicholson.
10,909. Is that property in the south side of the parish?-Yes; it is
near Reawick.
10,910. Has Mr. Leask any station in that district?-No.
10,911. Then where do they fish for him?-They go in some of his
vessels to the Faroe fishing. He has no home-fishing station in
Sandsting.
10,912. Are they at liberty to go to the home fishing or to the Faroe
fishing for anybody they like?-Yes. They are under no obligation
to fish for Mr. Leask. They can go where they like, and they have
always done so.
10,913. Do they hold their land as yearly tenants?-Yes.
10,912. What other property has Mr. Leask?-South Whiteness, to
the north-west of Scalloway, in the parish of Tingwall. I think
there are about seventeen or eighteen tenants on that property.
They fish principally for Mr. Leask in the Faroe fishing, and in the
spring fishing, which occupies about a month or a little more.
10,915. Then they are not generally engaged in the home
fishing?-No; they are generally engaged in the Faroe fishing.
10,916. How many of them may have gone to that fishing last
year?-There may have been above a dozen.
10,917. These men, I presume, have accounts at Mr. Leask's shop
at Lerwick?-Yes.
10,918. Is there any stipulation made with them that they shall
man his Faroe smacks?-None. They are not bound at all. They
may go where they please and engage themselves with whoever
they please.
10,919. Has Mr. Leask any other properties in Shetland?-He has
some small properties in other places-in Quarff, North Roe, and
Aithsting. He has two tenants in Quarff, three in Aithsting, and
one in North Roe. These tenants do not fish for Mr. Leask at all,
and never have done so, or been asked to do so.
10,920. Then Mr. Leask's business consists in sending smacks to
the Faroe fishing?-Yes.
10,921. And in sending boats to the summer fishing?-Now it
does, but not formerly. It was only last year that he commenced
the home fishing at Ulsta.
10,922. Has he commenced that business anywhere else?-No.
Ulsta is the only summer-fishing station that he has.
10,923. Mr. Leask is also engaged in the whale fishing, both as an
owner of ships and as an agent?-Yes.
10,924. I believe it is specially with regard to the agency business
that you wish to make some statement?-Yes. I wish to make a
statement with regard to Mr. Hamilton's Report to the Board of
Trade in November 1870. Some of it is so utterly absurd that I
should like to have it contradicted. He says, 'I ought to mention
that the truck system, in an open or disguised form, prevails in
Shetland to an extent which, I believe, is unknown in any other
part of the United Kingdom.' Now, that I deny <in toto>; and I
think I will be able to prove before I am done that it is not correct.
'And makes its depressing influence felt in all the ramifications of
the industrial and social life of the natives.'
10,925. He says, 'Almost every fisherman in the islands is in debt
to some shopkeeper; and not only is [Page 267] the head of the
family in debt, but frequently his wife also, and other members of
his family, down to children of twelve or fourteen years of age, for
whom the shopkeeper opens separate accounts in his books.' Is
that the case?-There may be some cases of that, but it is not
general. I deny that almost every fisherman in the islands is in
debt. Then he says, 'These fishermen, for the most part, also rent
small farms of from three to four acres.' That also I deny Mr.
Leask has about 120 tenants, and I think the average quantity of
land they hold is about twelve acres of enclosed ground, besides
common.
10,926. What is the amount of their rent?-The rent is something
less than 10s. an acre, on the average. Some have as much as
twenty-three acres, and in some cases they have about seven. The
rental I have given is for the enclosed ground within the township;
and in addition to that, the people have extensive commons.
10,927. On Mr. Leask's estates are the scattalds still left to the
people without any payment?-Yes, except in Yell, where
they have to pay 6d. per annum for every sheep. They also pay
something for ponies, but nothing for cattle.
10,928. I omitted to ask whether Mr. Leask has the management of
any properties except his own?-No.
10,929. He is not tacksman of any property, and he holds no
property in lease?-No. I may mention that he has an assignation
of the rents of a small property in Mid Yell, in security for debt.
The rents are paid regularly, and he has nothing to do with the
tenants except to draw their rent at the term.
10,930. Then what you deny in that sentence of Mr. Hamilton's
Report is merely his statement as to the extent of the holdings of
the men?-Yes. I hold they are three or four times larger than he
says.
10,931. In the same sentence he adds, 'And it is from them (that is,
the fishermen) and from their sons that the crews of the whaling
vessels are mainly drawn.' Is that the case?-I don't deny that at
all. It is quite true.
10,932. Is it also true that there are no whaling vessels belonging
to Lerwick-that they belong principally to Dundee, Peterhead,
and Hull, and that the owners of these vessels engage large
portions of their crews at Lerwick through agents?-Yes.
10,933. Is it also true that these agents get little direct profit from
their agency?-They get 21/2 per cent. commission on the gross
wages paid through them.
10,934. Do you consider that an adequate remuneration?-It is not
nearly an adequate remuneration for the amount of trouble they
have; but it has been the practice to pay that, and there is so much
competition amongst the agents that it has brought it down. I
believe it was formerly 5 per cent.
10,935. I believe there are only three or four agents in Lerwick,
and that the commission is fixed by mutual agreement between
them and the shipowners?-Yes. It has always been 21/2 per cent.
within my recollection.
10,936. Is it the competition that prevents the commission from
being raised to such a figure as would be a sufficient remuneration
in itself?-Yes.
10,937. The agents are engaged in business as shopkeepers and
outfitters?-Yes.
10,938. Then it is the case that they have little direct profit from
their agency; and Mr. Hamilton goes on to say, 'Their chief profit
arises from what they can make out of the earnings of the men.' Is
that statement correct?-I think some of them make very little
profit indeed from the men. They sell their goods as cheap, if not
cheaper, than other shopkeepers do; they give credit to the men,
and sometimes they lose a good deal of it through bad debts when
there is a bad voyage.
10,939. Is a bad voyage in the whaling a thing of frequent
occurrence?-It is very frequent, especially in the seal fishing.
10,940. Then Mr. Hamilton says, 'Many of the men engaged are
utterly unable, without the assistance of the agents, to provide
themselves with the clothing necessary for the voyage?'-That is
often the case with young hands. They come here without any
clothing, and require perhaps from £5 to £6 worth in order to fit
them out for the Greenland voyage. The wages for young hands
are about £1 a month, and 1s. per tun of oil. When they have no
success, they are back in about a month and a half; that is only 30s.
they have to get, and that is all the agent has for his advance.
10,941. You are speaking now of the sealing voyage?-Yes. It
only occupies about five or six weeks with the steamers.
10,942. But when a man goes on a sealing voyage of that kind, is
he taken for the whaling voyage afterwards?-Sometimes, but
sometimes not.
10,943. Do many of them only go to the sealing voyage?-Yes.
Last year the majority bargained for the sealing voyage only, and
did not go on the whaling voyage. Some of them re-engaged
again, but many of them did not.
10,944. But, as a rule, do one-half of them engage for a second
voyage after the sealing voyage was over?-I should say they do.
10,945. And many of them, I suppose, engage for a whaling
voyage, who have not been at the sealing voyage at the
commencement of the season?-That is sometimes the case.
10,946. How many men have you engaged for the last four or five
years for the sealing voyages?-I could not say exactly for the last
four or five years, but last year we engaged 207 for the sealing
voyage, and 80 for the whaling, or 287 altogether.
10,947. Is not that an unusual proportion between the sealing and
whaling voyages?-Yes. In former years we used to engage more
for the whaling, and fewer for the sealing; but last year the owners
took it into their heads to engage the men only for the sealing, and
discharge them at the end of that voyage; and then, when the
vessels were going to the whaling, they re-engaged only such
men as they wanted.
10,948. What was their reason for that?-I suppose they were
trying to economize. I don't know whether they economized or
not, but it must have been with that view they tried it.
10,949 Are the crews larger in the sealing voyages than in the
whaling?-They are. I should say that ten men fewer per ship
are required for the whaling than for the sealing
10,950. How many ships would these represent?-Seven for the
sealing, and four for the whaling.
10,951. So that you had three ships fewer under your care for the
whaling than for the sealing last year?-Yes.
10,952 How did that happen? Did the ships not go to the
whaling?-The 'Esquimaux' did not call here for men last year.
The 'Victor' did not go at all to the whaling, and the third one
remained at the sealing the whole season.
10,953. Then, in one ship the men you engaged would be
employed through the whole season for the sealing?-Yes.
That vessel tried whaling for a short time but I suppose it did
not succeed.
10,954. You say that when a young man goes to the sealing at first,
he incurs a larger debt for outfit than the whole amount of his
wages?-Very often he does.
10,955. So that the merchant who engages him is often a serious
loser, having no security in the shape of wages?-He risks his
goods on the success of the voyage, and when the voyage is
unsuccessful, he comes out a very serious loser occasionally.
10,956. But the man remains in his debt and may pay it up in a
subsequent year?-Very often he does not. When a man gets into
debt, we generally lose him. He goes to some other agent, or he
goes south.
10,957. Is he more likely to go to another agent when he is in
debt?-Yes. We very seldom get a man back again who is in
debt to us.
10,958. How does that affect Mr. Hamilton's statement?-He says,
'The agents are, of course, interested in getting employment for
those who are in their debt.' Now we very seldom or never get
them employed again when they once get into debt, and therefore
it is our interest not to allow them to get into debt, if possible.
10,959. But you would be very glad to get employment for such a
man if you could?-If we could get him employment we would be
very glad; but they take [Page 268] very good care not to allow us
to catch them. Of course, there are some of them who pay their
debts, but that is the exception. I am now referring to the young
hands-those who get into debt on their first voyage.
10,960. When a man of older standing gets into debt, is he more
likely to pay up in a subsequent year?-Yes. A man whose family
is settled here is more likely to pay up.
10,961. Of course, in his case, you are not only interested in
getting employment for him, but he also is anxious to get
employment through you?-Yes, it is a mutual accommodation;
but there are very few of the old hands in debt. It is principally
among the young men who make unsuccessful voyages that
anything of that kind happens. Then we come to a very serious
mistake which Mr. Hamilton makes. He says, 'Even those men
who are able to pay for their own outfit, and who might be able
to obtain it at a cheaper rate from some other shopkeepers, are
practically debarred from doing so; for any man who carried his
custom to any other shop than to that of the agent employing him,
would run the risk of being a marked man, not only with that
particular agent, but also with all the others, among whom the
news of his contumacy would soon spread; and as there are
more men than there are berths, he would probably never get any
employment again.' Now, it is nonsense to say, that there are
often more men than berths. We have often had to go and search
for men, and ships have frequently had to go on their voyages
short of men. That has often occurred within the last nineteen
years to my knowledge. I have seen vessels lying here for day
after day, when we were searching for hands and could not get
them, and after all they had to leave short-handed.
10,962. Did that occur last year or the year before?-No; it has not
occurred for it year or two, but five years ago it occurred in the
case of the 'Jan Mayen.' The first year she was a steamer, which
was five years ago, she had to go short-handed, because the men
were so scarce.
10,963. Do you know of any other ships which have had to go
to the fishing short-handed?-They have gone short-handed,
although I could not just remember them. I know that in 1854
or 1855 a number of them were short-handed.
10,964. Was there any particular reason why that was the case in
1854 and 1855?-There were more ships than men. I believe the
Russian war was the principal cause of it.
10,965. Had a number of Shetland men gone into the navy at that
time?-They had gone south, not perhaps into the navy; but there
was it great demand for men in the merchant trade. For the last
two or three years, also, the men have not been in excess. When
the ships were done, the men were generally done too, so that they
were about equally matched.
10,966. You refer to the statement in the Report: 'Any man who
carried his custom to any other shop than to that of the agent
employing him, would run the risk of being a marked man?'-
Yes; I deny that most emphatically.
10,967. Is it the case that the men generally get what outfit they
require at the shop of the merchant engaging them?-It is
generally the case, but we engage plenty of men who go elsewhere
to buy their goods. They are good men, and we are glad to get
them back again. We never care a straw about whether they buy
goods from us or not.
10,968. Are these men who have money of their own?-Yes. We
give them their first month's advance in money, and they can go
where they like.
10,969. What proportion of the men spend their month's advance
elsewhere?-I don't think there is large proportion of them who do
that. We generally find that we get on pretty well with the men,
and that they prefer buying their goods from us. They tell us, but I
don't know for the truth of it, that they get better value in our place
than they get elsewhere.
10,970. Suppose a man gets his outfit from another agent, or from
another shop, and comes back to you next year, is there any note
kept of him having done so?-Never. There are several men who
do that regularly, and we never quarrel them for it. They are good
men and we don't like to lose sight of them for the sake of their
custom. We always like to get hold a good man whether we get
his custom or not and therefore we never quarrel with them on that
account.
10,971. Suppose a man is in your debt at the beginning of the year,
is he likely to go and get his supplies from another shop?-I could
not say about that; but debt does not constitute any hold over him
at all.
10,972. Do you know any case of a man in your debt at the
beginning of the year having gone and got his supplies from
another merchant?-I believe he would take part from us and
part from others.
10,973. But do you know any case of that kind where the man
went to another merchant for his supplies?-I could not point to
any case.
10,974. Does any communication take place between different
shipping agents with regard to the men who are in debt?-Not
now. Formerly we used to hand our accounts from one to the
other.
10,975. Did you exchange lists of the indebted men?-There were
lists given for the other agents to try to recover the debts for us if
possible.
10,976. Was that done with the view of obtaining payment from
the agent by whom the men were engaged of a debt due to another
merchant incurred in previous years?-Yes; but it was only done
with the man's consent. Sometimes we recovered it, and
sometimes not.
10,977. When you say that it was done with the man's consent, do
you mean that at settling time the agent, who was aware that you
were a creditor of the man, would arrange with him to hand over
part of his wages to his former creditor?-Quite so, if the man was
willing to do so.
10,978. The agent might advise him to do that, but not compel
him?-He never could compel him. He would simply ask him if
he chose to pay the claim; and if he chose not to pay it, there was
no compulsion whatever.
10,979. Did you ever know of a man refusing to do that?-Very
often.
10,980. In that case I presume that since the Merchant Shipping
Act of 1854, there were no means compelling payment?-None;
except, of course, that he could be taken to the Small Debt Court.
10,981. And there was no security, no lien on the men's wages?-
None whatever. There never was that at any time. It was purely
with his own consent if the money was used for paying another
agent's account,
10,982. How long is it since these lists were interchanged between
the agents in Lerwick?-It was previous to 1854. Perhaps there
may have been some handed since then; one agent may have
handed his accounts to another, in order to get recovery of them.
10,983. You say you have been nineteen years with Mr. Leask,
and therefore these lists must have been interchanged within your
time?-Yes; I was first employed in 1853.
10,984. Do you say that there have been no lists of that kind
exchanged, and no information communicated with regard to the
men's debts, since 1853 or 1854?-I don't remember any since
1854: there may have been, but I don't remember handing any lists
or receiving any lists since that time.
10,985. Or receiving any information at all with regard to the debts
of the men?-Not since the Merchant Shipping Act of 1854.
10,986. Why do you fix that date?-Because at that date it became
compulsory to have the men shipped and discharged before the
shipping master.
10,987. Has that always been done since 1854?-Not always. It
was done I think, in 1854 and 1855, and it was not done again until
1867. In that year it commenced again, and the wages were all
paid down in presence of the shipping master.
10,988. But if the Act was not observed with regard to the payment
of wages in presence of the shipping master, how did it interfere
with the passing of these lists?-The practice was given up.
10,989. At that time was it the practice for the men [Page 269] to
receive payment of their wages at the agent's office?-Yes.
10,990. Was that done during all the period from 1854 down to
1867?-Yes, but not including 1867.
10,991. Can you say that, during that period you retained no
portion of any man's wages for debt of another agent?-It is quite
possible we may have done so, but I don't recollect.
10,992. I suppose your books will show whether any portion of a
man's wages was so retained?-Yes.
10,993. Do you remember any case in which that was done?-I
don't remember any particular case, but it is quite possible; in fact,
it is even probable.
10,994. Do you think that some retentions of that kind took place
every year?-I don't think so. Of course, if a man gave an order
on Mr Leask to pay a debt or an account for him, he was bound to
pay it if the man had funds in his hand. I have seen that done-
that a seaman gave a special order in favour of another agent or
another party.
10,995. Is that done frequently?-Not very often, but it is done
sometimes.
10,996. Is it done by the man of his own accord?-Decidedly.
10,997. But probably at the request of the other agent?-I don't
know about that. For instance, instead of getting money from the
seaman, he might get an order on the agent, the same as he might
get an order on the bank.
10,998. But the other agent who was the creditor of the seaman
does not know necessarily that you have money belonging to the
man in your hands as agent?-Not unless the man tells him.
10,999. Do you not still pass lists each year from one agent to
another, stating the sums which are due to you by the men?-No.
11,000. I do not speak merely of seamen indebted to you; but
do you not pass lists of all seamen whom you engage for the
whaling?-Not at all. We have no occasion to do that, because it
could serve no purpose whatever.
11,001. Why?-Because an agent who had a seaman in his books
as a debtor would know at once whether that man was engaged by
another agent in a particular year.
11,002. Is it the practice for one agent to be allowed to inspect the
lists or books of another, in order to ascertain what seamen have
been engaged?-I never did that or saw it done.
11,003. I suppose there are means of finding out in a small place
like Lerwick what seamen in a particular year have been
engaged?-We sometimes found it out in the Shipping Office.
Whenever we wanted to see where a man was, we went there.
11,004. Can you state distinctly that in every case where such an
order is presented for payment of a seaman's debt, it is presented
without any previous communication between the agents?-I
suppose it always is, but I don't know. The one agent has no
interest whatever in recovering debts for the other; he gets no
remuneration for it.
11,005. If that is the case, why does he not refuse to honour the
order?-I would not dishonour the order if the man had funds in
our hands.
11,006. But the Merchant Shipping Act requires that all wages
shall be paid, not in that way, not in obedience to any order, but
in the presence of the shipping master in hard cash?-That is
true; but it still allows a man to pay his debts.
11,007. Should not the agent leave him to pay his debts himself,
and so obey the law?-It is merely as an accommodation to the
seaman that we pay his debt for him, and we trust to his honesty
that he will repay it to us.
11,008. But still, on the part both of the agent and of the seaman,
is not that an infringement of the law?-No, it is not an
infringement.
11,009. Does not the law require the whole wages, without any
deductions other than those specified in the Act to be paid over in
presence of the shipping master?-Yes, and that is always done.
11,010. If that is so, how is it possible, for you in obedience to
such an order to retain the man's wages?-I do not retain them.
The man comes back and repays his debt.
11,011. Then that is not retention in obedience to an order?-It is
not retention: there has been no retention since 1867. Every man,
since then has got his money in the Shipping Office, and those
who had accounts in the shop came back and paid them.
11,012. Then how did it happen that you spoke of these orders
being implemented?-I was referring to the period before 1867.
11,013. Your statement now is, that no such orders have been
given, or acted upon since 1867?-They may have been given,
but there have been no deductions from the seaman's wages since
then, except the captain's account, the first month's advance, and
the allotments. With these exceptions, the whole money was paid
down to the seaman in the Shipping Office, and when he had an
account in the shop he came and paid it.
11,014. Will your books show that?-Yes.
11,015. In what way do, your books prove it?-I request that the
shipping master be called upon to prove it.
11,016. To prove what?-To prove that the men get their wages in
money in the Shipping Office.
11,017. I intend to call Mr. Gatherer to prove that but you have
come forward in order to contradict Mr. Hamilton's report, and the
question I asked is, in what way do your books prove that no such
orders have been honoured since 1867?-Mr. Gatherer will prove
that since 1867 the men have got their wages paid down to them in
money.
11,018. Am I to record that your books do not prove that?-They
do not prove that. I want the shipping master to prove it.
11,019 Then your books will not prove that all the wages have
been paid to the men in cash, and that no sum has been retained in
obedience to a seaman's order?-That can be proved by the
shipping master.
11,020. But your books do not prove it?-We have accounts with
the seamen, and when they get their wages, they invariably come
back and settle these accounts. We do not retain anything; we
invariably pay them the whole money that is due to them, and they
can either come back or not as they choose.
11,021. Who is it that hands over the money to the men on behalf
of Mr. Leask in presence of the shipping master?-It is generally
Mr. Andrew Jamieson, and sometimes myself. One of us attends
at the Shipping Office along with the men, and hands over their
cash to them in presence of the shipping master.
11,022. Do you generally find that a seaman comes down to your
office immediately after he has been paid, and settles any account
that he is due?-We generally find that that is the case; in fact,
always when they have accounts they come down and settle them.
11,023. Have you known any exceptions to that rule?-I have
only known one man who tried not to come down and settle his
account.
11,024. Who was he?-He was a lad belonging to Lunnasting,
named Robert Grains. He declined to come down and settle his
account but he afterwards came on the same day. I think that
occurred two years ago.
11,025. When was he asked to come?-I suppose he never was
asked particularly; but it is understood that every man has to pay
his debt when he is able.
11,026. But you say that he declined?-I believe he declined on
the ground that he required the money. I don't know whether he
was asked to come or whether he merely said of his own accord
that he would not be able to pay his account just now, as he
required the money.
11,027. Was that done in your presence?-No; it was in Mr.
Jamieson's.
11,028. Did you see the man when he came back to the office?-I
don't remember seeing him. It was Mr. Jamieson who told me of
the circumstance.
11,029. When a man comes down to settle after receiving [Page
270] his money at the Shipping Office does he hand over the
whole money into your hands, or does he merely settle the amount
of his account?-He sometimes does the one way and sometimes
the other.
11,030. Sometimes he may hand over the whole money for you to
settle with him?-Yes; and at other times he asks what he is due.
11,031. When he hands over the whole money to you, does it ever
happen that the accounts of another shipping agent are settled at
the same time in your office-It has not happened since 1867.
11,032. Is there anything in the state of the law to prevent that
from being done if the man has got his cash at the Shipping
Office?-I don't think there is.
11,033. Then why has it never been done since 1867?-I don't
know; it has just happened so.
11,034. Was that done regularly previous to 1867?-A few
instances might have occurred, but it was not very general
practice at all.
11,035. In what way before that time did you know that a man
was owing another agent unless you had the sum intimated to
you by that agent, or had lists exchanged?-The agent very likely
ascertained when the man was to settle and came along.
11,036. He had ascertained where the man was employed?-Yes,
in what ship.
11,037. Did he do that by means of information obtained at the
Custom House?-Possibly he might.
11,038. Was it not by information obtained from the agent who
employed the man?-It was possibly from the Custom House, or
from some other party.
11,039. But it might have been from the agent who engaged the
man?-It is quite possible.
11,040. Was it not a regular practice to give information of that
sort?-No.
11,041. Was such an arrangement made more commonly when the
man was pretty deep in debt?-Yes.
11,042. The agent in whose books he had run up a considerable
debt would look sharper after him, and would make inquiries at
the other agent by whom he was employed?-Yes.
11,043. So that at least to that extent there was regular system of
communication between the agents?-It was not done to any great
extent; it was merely trifling. There were not so many men in debt
as to make it a common practice.
11,044. It might come to something considerable where several
hundreds of men were engaged in the whale fishing?-Yes; but
when they were divided among four agents there would not be
many.
11,045. But last year you engaged 280 men yourselves?-Yes.
11,046. And in some years the number of men employed in
the sealing and whaling would be greater?-Yes. I think we
employed about 500 in 1853.
11,047. So that among 500 men employed by you it was very
probable that a considerable number should be in your debt?-I
don't think there were many of them indebted at all. Last year
there were very few indeed.
11,048. But in past years there may have been a very considerable
number when you had 500 or 600 men engaged?-When the
fishing proved a failure the debts would be very considerable.
11,049. In going through Mr. Hamilton's Report, you have omitted
a sentence in which he says: 'It is quite common for allotments of
wages to be made out in favour of the agents, or, in other words,
for the agent to undertake to pay to himself part of the seaman's
wages.' Is it quite common for the allotment notes to be made out
in favour of the agents?-Yes, it was quite common.
11,050. Is it sometimes done still?-We have never done it in Mr.
Leask's office but I believe it has been done elsewhere.
11,051. Why was it never done in Mr. Leask's office?-We just
trusted to the men's honesty.
11,052. Have you never taken an allotment note, in which the
party to whom it was payable was, not Mr. Leask, but some one
in his office?-We never took out allotment notes at all.
11,053. When you engage a man, does he not generally take an
allotment note?-Not generally.
11,054. Does he do it at all?-Not at all.
11,055. He gets his supplies from you without any allotment
note?-Yes; without us having any guarantee at all. We have
advanced both goods and money, to great extent, without any
allotment note.
11,056. But in these cases you were aware that he had no
allotment note?-We have never issued any allotment notes
for the last six years, except, perhaps, in a very rare case. We
may have given one or so.
11,057. Of course, you would not have advanced him the money
had there been an allotment note left in the hands of his with or
other relations, which they were entitled to draw from you?-We
would have advanced money to parties whom we knew.
11,058. Have you frequently given money to a seaman's family
during his absence?-Yes.
11,059. But more frequently supplies?-Not more frequently. It
was just as they wished it. If they wished supplies they got them,
but we did not wish them to take them.
11,060. What further observation have you to make on Mr.
Hamilton's Report?-Towards the end he says that the men
employed are not free agents. I deny that. I say they are free
agents, and that they are at perfect liberty, so far as my experience
goes. They can engage with whoever they please, and take their
supplies anywhere they please.
11,061. In denying that statement, do you intend your denial to be
applicable both to the men who are in your debt and to those who
are clear?-Decidedly. The debt constitutes no hold whatever
over the men.
11,062. Even where the man has a family, and is resident in
Shetland?-Yes, even then.
11,063. And even where he is a tenant of Mr. Leask, if that
happens to be the case?-Yes. Even in that case he may go
where he pleases. I never yet saw Mr. Leask compel a man in
any way. Then Mr. Hamilton says: 'While the men employed
are not free agents, however fair an employer may desire to be,
he cannot treat them as if they were; and if, on the other hand,
the employer wishes to make all he can out of those he employs,
and to take every advantage of their dependent position, he has
unlimited opportunity of appropriating to himself all the results of
their labour.' That also I deny. There is an insinuation there that
the employers do not do what is right; and I think the word
'appropriating' does not look very well; but it is not correct. The
Shetland people, in general, are pretty well able to take care of
themselves, and they are sharp enough in settling, to look out that
they have got fair play.
11,064. And even to take care that the prices charged for goods are
not unreasonably high?-Yes; they take very good care of that.
11,065. Have you many disputes as to the prices of goods at
settling time?-Very few indeed.
11,066. Does that arise from the fact that your charges are very
moderate, or from the fact that the Shetlanders don't pay much
attention to that matter?-They pay great attention to it, and an
article is always priced before they buy it. I am quite sure that
our prices are not higher than those of others; at least so far as
my experience goes.
11,067. There is another statement in Mr. Hamilton's Report, to
which you have not referred,-that there is no time fixed for
settlement with the men who go to the seal and whale fishing?-
That is quite correct; but it is our interest to get the work of
settlement done as speedily as possible.
11,068. In what way is it your interest?-To get the work off our
hands. We could settle with a dozen men nearly in the same time
that we can with two or three; and if they would all come and get
settled with in one or two days, that would be so much less trouble
to us.
11,069. Is it the case that the men, after being discharged from the
ship and before settlement, continue to run accounts with you to
any extent?-Very seldom.
11,070. Does it happen to some extent?-Only to a very small
extent. They seldom buy anything after they have landed. Here
[showing] is a crew of 27 men [Page 271] landed from the
'Esquimaux' on 28th April 1870, and they were all paid off by
14th May, or in about two weeks.
11,071. That was for a sealing voyage. Did these men engage
again for the whaling?-I believe some of them did.
11,072. Were others going south?-Some of them went south, I
daresay, and a good number of them went to the home fishing.
11,073. Have you had any case of as early a discharge in the case
of a whaling voyage?-Here [showing] is the crew of the 'Polynia'
last year. Nineteen men were landed on 26th October, and they
were all paid off and discharged by 29th November, or in about a
month. When the men don't come to be discharged, it is entirely
their own fault, not ours. We can't compel them to come. We
wish them to come as soon as possible and to settle; but sometimes
they don't find it convenient. Some of them may live 20 or 30
miles from Lerwick, and they don't care about coming until they
have to come deal about some other business.
11,074. Is it not often more than a month before they are
discharged?-Perhaps it is. Two or three of them may stay
away till the end of the year, but that is the men's fault, not the
agent's. Mr. Hamilton says in the same paragraph: 'When he
(the agent) does pay to the man the balance of wages due to him
before the superintendent, the man has no option but to hand it all
back to the agent at once, to whom he is indebted in an equal or
greater amount.' I deny that. The man he may hand it back or not,
as he chooses, but if he is an honest man he will pay his debt.
11,075. But you don't deny that in most cases there is a debt due to
the shop?-In most cases they have an account with the shop, but
in some cases it is very small.
11,076. Can you give me an idea from your books what is the
average amount of the debts due by the men engaged in the
Greenland fishing?-I could not do that just now; but I can state
that, in 1865,-which was before we were compelled to settle
with them in the Custom House, we paid to the men of the
'Camperdown'-42 men-£1120, 12s. 3d. in cash; and out of
that number Mr. Leask had only one tenant.
11,077. That would be about £25 apiece?-Yes, on an average;
but some of these men had upwards of £50 to get. One of them
had £54, 18s. 5d. to get, and he got it in cash.
11,078. Was that a very successful year?-Yes; and the following
year was somewhat similar to it.
11,079. What would be the amount of goods supplied to these men
at starting, or to their families during their absence?-About £400
for the whole crew.
11,080. That would be about £9 apiece for the 42 men?-Yes,
about that.
11,081. Would that be the average amount of a Greenlandman's
account for the season?-No; it would be much more than the
average. Less than the half of that would be nearer the average.
11,082. But the amount of receipts due upon that voyage was
considerably above the average?-Yes; it was it very exceptional
voyage.
11,083. Was it twice as much as usual?-Yes; perhaps about that.
11,084. Do you mean that £4 or £5 is the average amount of the
account due by a seaman engaged in the whaling?-I never made
any calculation about it but I should think it would be somewhere
about that.
11,085. In what way are your accounts with these men kept? Is
there an account kept in the name of each man?-Yes. [Produces
book.] There [showing] is the account I have been referring to of
the 'Camperdown.'
11,086. You have a ledger for each ship?-Yes.
11,087. And this account shows the whole transactions for
1865?-Yes.
11,088. This [showing] is the account of Hercules Hunter,
Lerwick, who was engaged in the seal fishing of 1865 at 50s.
per month, and 2s. 6d. per ton of oil-money; 2s. 6d. per 1000
skins, and 2s. 6d. per ton of bone?-Yes.
11,089. The first entry on March 4, 1865, consists of two advances
of 20s. each to account of his first month's pay, and 3s. as his
subscription to the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund, for which Mr.
Leask was agent?-Yes.
11,090. The next entry is half of note to Mr. Hay for rent, £1, 18s.
11/2d. Had Mr. Leask undertaken to pay his rent?-Yes.
11,091. The following entries, to the amount of £2, 0s. 31/2d., are
for outfit at starting, consisting both of clothing and private
stores?-Yes.
11,092. Then follows-insurance, 5s. 10d.: what is that?-The
insurance is on the outfit, and it is charged over and above the
month's advance. The advance is made by the owner of the ship;
and what is over that is at risk, which is covered by insurance.
We get it done for them, and they refund the premium.
11,093 Do you employ a broker to effect an insurance on all your
advances of that kind?-Yes.
11,094. Then the 5s. 10d. is the amount of insurance paid by you
upon the sum of £3, 10s., which was the amount of cash and goods
advanced to this man at the time of, or after, his sailing?-Yes.
11,095. There is also a balance of the old debt: was that not
included in the insurance?-No.
11,096. On April 27 the man returns from his voyage and receives
a payment in cash of 20s., with certain additional supplies; and on
28th April you enter to his credit the sum of £30, 8s. 4d. for wages,
oil-money, and skin-money due to him upon that voyage?-Yes;
that is the first payment.
11,097. His account runs on from 2d May till 4th December of the
same year, when it is settled, during which time he has been upon
a whaling voyage?-Yes.
11,098. At the commencement of that voyage on 2d May he
receives £5 in cash?-Yes; that is to account of oil-money.
11,099. On 8th May he receives £5 in cash; on 16th May, £3;
November 1, 3s.; November 18, 2s.; and on November 1 also there
is £1, 16s. entered as having been paid at Dundee: that would be
advanced by the shipowners there?-Yes.
11,100. On November 22d he receives £8 in cash, and a balance
was paid on December 4 of £18, 8s.?-Yes.
11,101. The rest of the debits in that account consist of supplies
for himself during the voyage in the captain's account and supplies
to his family of meal, sugar, soap, tea, and other items; and the
total amount of his credit for wages, oil-money, bone-money, for
the two voyages, was £58, 19s. 2d.?-Yes.
11,102. In that case the settlement took place in December?-Yes,
the final settlement.
11,103. The whaling voyage would come to an end in
November?-Yes, not sooner; so that the man had only been
at home about a month when he was settled with.
11,104. But during all that time you had in your hands the
proceeds of his first successful sealing voyage?-Yes, except
what he had got. I think he got £19 in cash out of the £30,
besides his goods up to the 16th May.
11,105. And the balance of £11 remained in your hands as a
security for the advances he was getting up to the settlement
in December?-Yes.
11,106. Then, on November 20, he was credited with the
additional sums due for the whaling voyage, amounting to
£28, 4s. 10d.; so that, in addition to supplying him with goods,
upon which you had your profit you were, during all that time
acting as his banker?-No; he had got £19 to account by 16th
May.
11,107. But to the extent of £11 you were acting as his banker?-
Yes.
11,108. And he was not getting interest for it?-I think he should
have paid interest.
11,109. Not when you had £11 of his in your hands?-No; but we
charged him no interest when we advanced him more.
[Page 272]
11,110. But you charged insurance upon the goods he got, and you
had your profit upon the goods?-Yes; but we had to lie out of the
money, for some time. We might have lain out of that money for
eight or nine months.
11,111. Had you sold him these goods at a cash price, and not at a
credit price?-At a cash price; we have only one price. We make
no difference between cash and credit.
11,112. Was the oil-money that is credited to the man on 20th
November the first payment of oil-money?-It was the first
payment of oil-money for the Davis Straits voyage.
11,113. When was the second payment of oil-money made?-It is
credited on 19th February 1866.
11,114. It only amounted to 15s.?-Yes. I don't believe that we
had received the first money at the time when we paid the man, so
that we had no money on hand.
11,115. Take the case, now, of a man living in the country, George
Georgeson in Walls. He receives, in like manner, on 4th March,
£2, 13s. in cash, and he gets supplies, and is debited with
insurance in the same way. On April 27 he has the same amount
to receive for the sealing voyage, and on May 17 he gets £12,10s.
in cash; on September 9, £1 per order: was that an allotment
note?-It was money to account.
11,116. It would be advanced to his wife upon the security of the
voyage?-Yes.
11,117. On November 20 there is £5; and £1, 6s. for cash at
Dundee and Aberdeen. He is credited with the same amount of
wages as Hunter, and on December 4 he is credited with second
payment for the sealing voyage £3, 15s. Then, on December 26,
he receives £28, 2s. 6d. in cash; and the rest of his debits consist
of supplies to his family in sugar, tea, aqua, canvas, and other
small article, but to a very small extent. I suppose the supplies
taken out in that way by people living out of Lerwick are usually
less than in the case of those who live in town?-Yes. It costs
them both expense and trouble to get them from Lerwick.
11,118. There is also the case of James Twatt, Sandness, who is
debited on March 4 with £2, 3s. to advance; and then on March 4
and 9 he gets supplies to the amount of £3, 38. 71/2d., upon which
there is charged 6s. 51/2d. of insurance. On April 27, on his return
from the sealing voyage he gets 20s. in cash, and he is credited
with £20, 10s., for wages, oil-money, and skin-money?-Yes; I
think he was only at the sealing voyage.
11,119. Then, on May 27, he gets £7 in cash; July 10, 15s.;
September 11, £2; and on December 4 he is credited with second
payment for sealing voyage, £2, 5s. On March 6 he receives 2s.
in cash; and on the same date he is settled with, by receiving £3,
1s. 3d. in cash. The total proceeds of that voyage to him were £22,
15s.?-Yes.
11,120. How many ships had you in 1865?-I think we had seven.
11,121. Were they all as fortunate as this one?-No, none of the
others were so fortunate.
11,122. Was 1866 as good a year for the 'Camperdown'?-Yes.
11,123. I see that in that year Adam Moar had £36, 2s. upon the
two voyages; of that he got in cash at starting, and the amount of
the Shipwrecked Mariners' ticket, 33s.; on May 2, cash 40s.;
having been credited on that date with the proceeds of the sealing
voyage, £21, 9s. 6d.; May 8, cash 10s.; May 17, cash 32s.; May 19,
cash 6d.; August 16, cash 8s.; and on June 22, 1866, there is an
entry to G.R. Tait's account, £3, 2s. 10d.: was that a previous
account due to Mr. Tait, which you had paid for the man?-Yes.
11,124. Then, on August 16, there is cash 8s.; October 22, cash £6,
captain's account £1, 7s. 6d.; cash at Dundee for travelling charge,
£1, 6s. I thought the engagement was, that when the men were
carried past Lerwick, their travelling expenses home were paid to
them?-That is generally the case.
11,125. Then why is that sum charged against the man?-It has
been something additional; it was advanced besides what was paid
by the owner.
11,126. On October 23 he is credited with the proceeds of the
whaling voyage, and on October 31 his account is settled by a cash
payment of £4; the difference between the previous cash payments
and this balance being made up of supplies to himself and the
family-Yes.
11,127. The second payment on both voyages was made on
January 1, 1867, and he got £4, 8s. 1d. in cash?-Yes; that was
when he came in to settle.
11,128. Was 1867 a good year for the 'Camperdown'?-Yes; both
1867 and 1868 were pretty fair years for her, but not so good as the
former years.
11,129. Have you anything to show the state of accounts in 1870
or 1871?-Yes. [Produces book for 1871.] It is not the case that
we do not keep accounts with the men, because we pay them in
presence of the shipping master, and then they pay their accounts
to us.
11,130. Do you keep your accounts now in a different way from
what you did when the book was current upon which I have been
examining you?-No; they are kept quite in the same way.
11,131. I see that the account for 1871, which you have produced,
is not yet settled?-No; it is for the 'Polynia,' another ship.
11,132. Why have you selected these two ships?-Because the one
was previous to the compulsory settlement at the Custom House,
and the other was not.
11,133. Have you not had the 'Camperdown' since?-Yes.
11,134. Were the ''Camperdown' and 'Polynia' the best paying
ships in this year?-The 'Camperdown' was, but not the 'Polynia.'
11,135. And the 'Polynia' was not the most successful ship since
1868?-No, nor before.
11,136. Take the account of Peter Blance, Yell. His wages
were 20s. per month, 1s. per ton of oil, and 2s. per thousand
seal-skins?-Yes, he was a young hand.
11,137. He gets an advance at first of 4s. as a payment to the
Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund; then he gets an outfit, £3, 2s., upon
which 2s. 1d. of insurance is charged. On April 17 he receives in
cash 5s., and at that date he is in your debt for £1, 7s. 8d., after
crediting him with wages, oil-money, and skin-money?-Yes.
11,138. That balance is carried on to a new account in which there
appear certain supplies, and he is credited with his share of the
summer fishing, and also with the second payment of oil and skin
money, and another item of 2s, making up £16, 1s. 3d.; and also
with the second payment of oil and skin money, and another item
of 2s. making up £16, 1s. 3d.?-Yes.
11,139. On November 29, there is entered to balance rent account,
£12, 14s. 8d. Is Blance one Leask's tenants?-His mother was a
tenant of Mr. Leask.
11,140. Then the £12,14s. 8d. was applied to square off that
account?-Yes; it was put to his mother's credit.
11,141. The sum due to Blance on April 17, on the sealing voyage,
was £3, 14s. 4d.?-Yes, that was the money paid to him at the
Custom House, before the shipping master.
11,142. When was it transferred to your hands?-He would come
down to the office and pay it back. I cannot say exactly at what
hour he came, but he would come on the same day.
11,143. Then the £12, 14s. 8d., which was due for rent, was
transferred by you to the rent account?-Yes, by his own order.
11,144. Was it done at your request?-It was at his mother's
request.
11,145. How old is Blance?-He is about 20.
11,146. Had you had any correspondence with his mother about
transferring that money to her amount his mother had been in
arrear, or some time. She was a widow, and Mr. Leask had been
rather obliging her by allowing her to remain where she was for
some years, when she was not able to pay any rent. Then when her
son was grown up, and was able to pay the debt, he did so.
[Page 273]
11,147. Here [showing] is the account of William Johnston, jun.,
Yell: was he another young hand?-Yes; he was in the same
position as Blance. Both their fathers were drowned a few years
ago, and their mothers lived in Yell.
11,148. In May, the balance against him was £4, 14s. 11d., and
that includes the balance from a previous fish ledger, of £3, 1s.
6d.?-Yes; he was at the Faroe fishing and was rather unfortunate.
11,149. That is carried into a new account in May, and after
allowing him his share of the summer ling fishing, £14, 13s. 9d.,
and his second payment of oil-money, the balance carried to the
rent ledger against him is £8, 17s. 11d.?-Yes.
11,150. That was for his mother's rent in the same way as in the
case of Blance?-Yes; these are the only two cases of the kind in
Mr. Leask's transactions with his tenants.
11,151. Here [showing] is the account of Magnus Arthur, Yell:
was he also a young hand?-Yes.
11,152. Last year he got advances to the amount of 19s. 10d., on
which 1s. 7d. of insurance was charged; afterwards, on April 17,
he received in cash 5s., and £1, 16s. 11d. at settlement in
November; the amount on his receipts from wages, oil-money,
and skin-money, being £4, 19s. 10d.?-Yes.
11,153. I see that in the case of Hugh Arthur, Nesting, the amount
due to him in wages, oil-money, and skin-money, was £7, 15s. 6d.,
in April 1871; and the account at his debit for previous advances
was £7, 11s. 8d., part of which consisted of a payment of £2, 5s.
upon an advance note in favour of J. Dalzell?-Yes.
11,154. That sum of £7, 15s. 6d. was paid, I presume, before the
superintendent at the Custom House?-Yes, after deducting the
£2, 5s., the master's account, and the shipping master's fees.
11,155. And then Arthur walked down to your office and paid
the amount of his account?-Yes, he came down and settled the
account he was due to Mr. Leask for advances.
11,156. Is that done universally by the men when there is an
account due by them?-Yes, after receiving their money they
walk back to the office and pay their accounts.
11,157. Do they generally accompany you down to the office
or the clerk who sees them paid?-One of us sometimes
accompanies them to the office but we don't wait for them;
they come back when they please.
11,158. Do you always desire them to come down to the office
and settle their accounts when they leave the shipping master's
office?-Of course, they understand they have to pay their
accounts. We don't require to tell them that. The men are very
honest on the whole, and don't require to be asked to pay what
they are due.
11,159. Except in the case of a man like Robert Grains?-That is
the only exception I have known since 1867.
11,160. I suppose if any of them showed a reluctance to settle their
account at the time, then either you or the clerk who attended at
the shipping master's office would remind them of it and ask them
to come down to your shop to settle?-Except in that one case, I
never saw even the least hint of that.
11,161. There is generally a second payment due to the men for
oil-money?-Invariably.
11,162. Where is that second payment of oil-money settled?-In
the agent's office now.
11,163. Why is it not also paid before the shipping master?-
Because it creates a great amount of trouble to go there with every
man to make the settlement. It entails an immense amount of
labour.
11,164. Then the final settlement of accounts between you and
the seamen does not take place until the second payment becomes
due?-No.
11,165. And generally the actual settlement is some time after it
becomes due?-Yes, a short time after.
11,166. Does it generally take place at the time when the men are
engaging for their next year's voyage?-No. We are so busy then
that we could not take time to settle their balances. There may be
a few cases of that kind, but very few.
11,167. But with men from the North Isles, is it not the case that
the settlement for the second payment takes place when they come
in to arrange for the next year's voyage?-Yes.
11,168. And when they take supplies at that time, are these put
into the account for the rising year?-Yes, if they take supplies
after they engage.
11,169. They don't go into the account on which the oil-money
has been paid?-That account has been previously settled.
11,172. But I am putting the case of a man wife receives his final
payment of oil-money at the same time that he engages for the
voyage of the rising year?-He receives his oil-money, if he
wishes it, in cash, and if he wishes an advance on the rising year,
he gets it besides.
11,171. In point of fact, what is generally done?-We pay the
second payment of oil-money in cash; and then afterwards, if the
man wishes any advance, and if it is a person we know, we will
trust him with it.
11,172. But he is entitled to his advance in any case?-He is not
entitled to get goods unless we choose to give them to him.
11,173. Is that advance always paid in money?-It is always paid
in money if they wish it. All they are entitled to is one month's
advance, and that they are entitled to receive in money.
11,174. But when a man engages for the whale fishing, and asks
for his first month's pay in advance, is it the case that, in point of
fact, he generally gets it in cash, or does he generally take it in
goods?-We always give advance notes at the shipping office,
stamped notes payable three days after the ship leaves, provided
the men go in the ship.
11,175. Then you don't give either goods or money until after the
man is actually away?-Yes. When man is engaged he gets his
clothes to take with him, and if he wishes to give us his advance
note we will cash it afterwards.
11,176. Do you give him his clothes in addition to the amount of
his advance note?-If he wishes it.
11,177. But I see in all the entries I have been looking at, that the
advance note is entered to his debit?-We debit him with what he
receives, and he gives us back the advance note.
11,178. Here, for instance, is an entry of cash 30s. that actually
paid to the man in cash?-Yes. He asks us to give him what
money he requires, and he leaves his advance note with us. If he
wants to get 40s. or 45s., he would get it; but if he says that he
only wants 30s., we don't give him more than he requires.
11,179. A man who engages in that way has perhaps to get the
amount of his last payment of oil-money for the previous year, and
also cash for his advance?-Yes. That may happen very often,
and it does happen. He first gets his payment of oil-money, and
after he re-engages he gets his advance.
11,180. If a man in these circumstances wants a supply of meal or
clothing or anything to be sent to his family, does that appear in
your books, or is it paid for in money out of the monthly sums
which his family may have to receive?-The whole of these things
are kept in one account.
11,181. But suppose he buys meal at that time, will that enter your
books at all?-Anything that he does not pay for will be entered.
11,182. But he may pay for it out of that very cash which is
entered here as having been received by him?-He may do so;
but we don't mark down anything that is paid for.
11,183. When a man has his oil-money to receive, and is taking his
month's advance at the same time, is it not usual to ask him if he
wants any supplies for his family?-I don't know that it is. We
don't obtrude questions of that kind upon them.
11,184. Does he not often take supplies for his family?-Very
often.
11,185. And these are paid for in cash out of the cash he is so
receiving from you?-Very often.
[Page 274]
11,186. But you say you don't obtrude questions about his wants
upon him at that particular time?-No. We never engage a man to
be paid in goods at all. We engage every man to be paid in money;
and if he is paid in goods it is his own fault.
11,187. But, in point of fact, a man often does take goods, at that
time?-Very often. We make it, a point to give them as cheap or
cheaper than they could get them elsewhere.
11,188. Therefore although there is an entry in your books of
oil-money being paid to a man at a certain date, and of a payment
of 30s. or £2 being made to him at the same time, on account of
his first month's advance, it may happen, and it does happen, that
that money is paid back into your till for goods supplied the
time?-A part of it may be; but the place where the cash is kept,
and the place where the goods are sold, are two separate places, so
that the things must be kept quite distinct. The shop is on the
ground floor opening from the street, and the office is up a lane on
the second floor, where we have also a warehouse or general store
for drapery goods. A man, when he gets his money in the office,
may go and buy drapery goods on the second floor, or he may go
down stairs and buy provisions. We don't know what he does.
11,189. You do know, in point of fact, that he often does spend his
money there and then?-I have no doubt he does.
11,190. But you are not aware that he is often asked if he wants
anything at the time?-I am not aware of that. It is not done now
at any rate.
11,191. Do you know whether it was the practice, before the
evidence was given in Edinburgh last year, to ask a man on such
occasions what goods he would take?-Our shopmen might have
done so. Every shopman is keen to sell as much as he can; and
when he is aware of a man getting plenty of money, he would
likely ask him, 'Are you going to buy anything?'
11,192. You have now handed in to me the abstract from which
you previously spoke, with regard to the 'Camperdown's' voyages
in 1865, which shows a total of £1537, 10s. 3d. for the men's
earnings for both the sealing and whaling that year, and a total
amount of cash paid to them, both during the season and at the
end, of £1120, 12s. 3d., leaving a balance of £416, 18s. for goods
sold?-Yes.
11,193. Do you think that shows about the average proportion of
goods and cash received by each man during each year?-I should
say that it does.
11,194. Was that not an unusually favourable season for the
whaling?-For most of the vessels it was.
11,195. But were not these voyages of the 'Camperdown' very
considerably above the average with respect to the earnings of the
men?-They were above the average.
11,196. Do you also say that the accounts incurred by the men that
year were above the average?-I should certainly say so. They
bought more than they otherwise would or could have done.
11,197. Why should that be so? The men did not know at the
commencement of the season whether the fishing was to be a
successful one or not?-The greater quantity of the goods are
bought after the sealing voyage, when they have earned a
considerable sum of money.
11,198. Then the sealing voyage that year was unusually
successful?-Yes. The principal part of the earnings were
from it; and it was after it that the greater portion, or a great
portion, of the accounts were contracted.
11,199. And you think the fact of the sealing voyage being
unusually successful led the men or their families to incur larger
accounts to you than they would otherwise have done?-I should
certainly say so; because when the men's earnings are small, we
have to restrict them. In this case, however, they had plenty of
means, and we did not refuse them what they wanted.
11,200. With regard to the sum due at the end of the season, and
paid in cash before the superintendent, what proportion of it
should you say was refunded immediately in payment of accounts
due at the shop?-I suppose about one-fourth, calculating from the
case I have given.
11,201. I think if you look at the books which you have showed
me, you will find that many of the accounts show that a much
larger sum would require to be repaid. That may have been the
proportion for a special ship, but it does not follow that that is a
fair criterion?-I took that book simply because it came first to
hand. I did not take it specially; but of course, it will show more
goods sold, in proportion to the amount of earning than any other
book we have got.
11,202. But can you not tell me what proportion of the money paid
before the superintendent the man has to come down to and hand
over to you in payment of his account?-The men, when they are
landed, and before settlement, often get sums in cash to account,
and sometimes pretty heavy sums, before they get their money at
the Shipping Office.
11,203. But you would not do that if the men were in debt to you
for goods?-No, not if they were in debt.
11,204. So that if a man has to refund money to you out of what he
gets before the shipping master, that will, in the general case, be in
payment of goods which he has got?-Yes, generally.
11,205. It must be so, because you would not advance him money
if he was in your debt?-No; but the men generally are not in our
debt. When they are in debt, it is the exception, especially in the
whaling trade.
11,206. Then if a man is in your debt, and has to refund you
money which he receives before the shipping master, that must be
for goods?-Yes, for goods alone, if he is in debt; but we don't
like him to be in debt. If he be in debt, it must be for goods. We
would not care about allowing a man to get into debt for cash,
although it may sometimes be the case, because Mr. Leask is very
accommodating in the way of giving advances.
11,207. But the answer you give is, that about one-fourth of the
sums which have been received by the men before the shipping
master is repaid to you by them in settling their accounts for
goods?-I said that I thought about one-fourth represented the
goods sold; but, in many cases the men have got advances in
money to account over and above the goods they have bought; so
that the money paid over to the agent after the settlement before
the shipping master, will be more than one-fourth. I should say
that it would be one-third, and that would cover the sums of
money paid to account from the date of landing to the date of
settlement. It is quite a common thing for the men to get money
as soon as they land, and before settlement; and that of course,
increases the account against the men, which they have to pay
after receiving their money before the shipping master.
11,208. Still you don't give that as an exact statement but merely
as a guess?-It is merely an approximation, as nearly as I can
guess it to be and I have a very good idea.
11,209. You say the men always go down of their own accord to
pay the money, because they are honest men?-Yes, invariably.
They don't require to be asked to do so.
11,210. Has it not been the case that at certain times within the last
3 or 4 years, and since the regulations of 1868 were enacted by the
Board of Trade, you and your clerks have endeavoured to settle
with the men before leaving the Custom House?-I think in the
first year that was done. We simply paid them over the balance
which they had to receive, after deducting their accounts. Perhaps
it was partly done in the second year; but since then the shipping
master has been more rigid, and we have had to pay the whole.
11,211. Did the shipping master interfere about that?-He always
interfered, and he would not allow any reckoning in the Shipping
Office at all
11,212. Since then the men have invariably come down to your
office and settled with you immediately after they had received
their money in the Shipping Office?-Yes, on the same day, and
without any exception, unless in the one case I mentioned, and that
man came on the same day also after some reflection.
[Page 275]
11,213. You still keep your ledger accounts in the same form as if
there were no such payment of cash in the Shipping Office?-Yes,
we adhere to the same form that we used before.
11,214. So that your books do not show, without calculation, what
amount of cash was transferred before the shipping master?-They
show the account exactly as it is, irrespective of the settlement
before the shipping master.
11,215. In that way, is it not the case that the transference of the
cash before the shipping master is merely form in order to comply
with the Act?-I don't think so; because, if a man chooses to keep
the money, he may do so. The account is kept merely to show the
man's earnings, and how these earnings have been disposed of. It
would be more simple, perhaps, to debit the men with the goods
they get, and then to credit the cash after the settlement; but the
form we use has always been adopted, and we still adhere to it. I
don't think it is an evasion of the Act at all.
11,216. The men are not all settled with on the same day?-No.
11,217. Perhaps you may settle with half a dozen at time?-Yes.
I remember of settling with nineteen on one day last year, but I
think that is the largest number; but we could have settled with
more if they had come forward.
11,218. Of course, if the men were all settled with as they land
from the ships, perhaps to the number of 40 at a time, it would be
more easy for them to go away without paying their debts?-Of
course it would, but it is no great trouble to them to come and pay
their debts.
11,219. But there would be great difficulty for you or your clerk in
looking after them on the way down from the Shipping Office to
the shop?-I don't think so. It is the work of a moment to take
their money from them, because we can see at a glance what is
due.
11,220. How far is Mr. Leask's office from the Shipping Office?-
It may be about a couple of hundred yards, but I could not say
exactly. Mr. Leask's office is in the town, and the Custom House
is in Fort Charlotte which is to the north of the town.
11,221. You say you settled with nineteen men in one day: did
these men all go up at one time before the superintendent?-All
that were there at the time went before the superintendent.
11,222. But the ordinary number with whom you settle on the
same day will be much less?-Yes; sometimes there may be
eight or ten, and sometimes only one.
11,223. So that if they really require looking after, there will not
be much difficulty in looking after them from the Custom House
to the office?-We never require to look after them at all; they
come of themselves.
11,224. But suppose the case that they did require it; it would not
be very difficult to look after them, when there are only one or
two, or even eight or ten?-We should not take the trouble to do
that. If they chose to swindle us, we should just apply to the
Small Debt Court. We would not be inclined to act the part of
sheriff-officer ourselves. Mr. Hamilton says in his Report,
'Almost every fisherman in the islands is in debt to some
shopkeeper, and not only is the head of the family in debt, but
frequently his wife also, and other members of his family, down
to children of 12 or 14 years of age, for whom the shopkeeper
opens separate accounts in his books'-I don't think that is the
case. Some of them may perhaps have accounts, but I don't think
every is indebted to some shopkeeper.
11,225. Still that is a common thing?-Quite a common thing.
11,226. Does it occur in your books as well as in those of other
firms, that separate accounts are opened for the wife and for
the children?-Never for the wife; but, of course, an account is
opened for the children when we are employing them.
11,227. Have you any transactions in hosiery?-We have
transactions in barter for what Mr. Walker calls the hosiery
improper or incidental. We do a great deal in that way in the
coarser sort of work stockings, frocks, and so on. We barter
goods for them, or rather I should say we take them instead of
money.
11,228. You don't keep, accounts with regard to these
transactions?-No.
11,229. Every transaction is separate and distinct?-Yes, it is
simple barter. The people come with their goods instead of
money, and we give them, goods in exchange for them.
11,230. A married woman may come with her knitting and sell it
in that way for goods?-Yes.
11,231. But you don't keep an account with her?-No; we don't
keep separate accounts with a man and his wife.
11,232. If she gives the hosiery in that way, and does not want any
goods, may it be put down to the husband's account?-We don't
care about taking hosiery at all. We simply take the hosiery
instead of money, because the people come wanting to buy goods,
and very often they have nothing to give for them except their
hosiery. We frequently take the hosiery from them at a great
disadvantage.
11,233. Do you frequently open accounts with the children of a
family when they are in your employment?-I should not call
them children, but grown-up young people-boys of from 12 years
of age and upwards, who are employed in the fish-curing.
11,234. Do you employ many boys in your establishment at
Lerwick?-Yes. I now produce a list of all the people employed
by Mr. Leask in that way. There are about 60 of them altogether,
including persons of 12 to upwards of 50.
11,235. For how many months in the year are these persons
employed?-I should say that on an average taking one thing
with another, curing the fish and turning them over, they are
employed for about five months in the year, from May to
December; but they are only employed at intervals, not regularly.
They are employed regularly for part of May and for June, July,
August, and September, and sometimes part of October. After
that we have to employ them occasionally in turning the fish.
11,236. When you employ one of these persons at the beginning of
the year, is it the ordinary practice to open an account in his name
in the ledger?-We don't care about opening accounts with them
at all. We prefer to settle with them every Saturday.
11,237. What is the nature of the engagement with them? Is it for
weekly wages, or for a fee?-It is for weekly wages. We pay them
from 7d. a day upwards; 1s. a day is the regular wage for a woman
working among the fish, or for a strong boy.
11,238. In your establishment in Lerwick, is any payment made by
way of beach fees?-No; we pay all by daily or weekly wages, and
Saturday evening is the pay.
11,239. Do all these parties take payment in cash every
Saturday?-We prefer to pay them in cash; but, of course, if
they have taken supplies or provisions during the week we must
be paid for them. Some of them do take supplies, because they
could not live without them.
11,240. When they take supplies in that way, are their names
entered each week in the day-book?-Not in the day-book, but
in a book which we keep for the purpose, what we call our
work-book.
11,241. In what way is it kept?-We simply charge them with
what provisions they get.
11,242. Is there a ledger account in that work-book for each
person?-Yes.
11,243. In it the provisions which they get are entered, and I
suppose also soft goods if they get any?-They very seldom take
soft goods; it is only provisions. These are entered in the book as
they are got, and the account is settled on the Saturday evening,
except in one or two extravagant cases where the people are in
debt. In that case, we simply put their work to their credit, and
don't balance at all until the end of the season.
[Page 276]
11,244. If you don't make a balance until the end of the season,
may you not have some difficulty in restricting their supplies
within proper limits?-Of course, we can always tell how they
stand, because we are keeping a check upon their accounts, but
sometimes we find it pretty hard to keep such people in check.
We far rather prefer paying cash on the Saturday evening than
having accounts.
11,245. But you don't always do that?-No, we cannot do it
because the people cannot live without supplies as a general
rule; perhaps there may be some exceptions.
11,246. But in the majority of cases you say the people have
accounts?-Yes.
11,247. In the list you have given in, there are the names of about
eighty people: are these all the people employed in your curing
establishments?-No; there are a good many employed
incidentally besides these. The names I have given are only
those of the people are employed most regularly.
11,248. How are these people paid who are employed
incidentally?-We never employ any one to work for goods.
The understanding is that they are to be paid in money; and
they are paid in money, unless they have supplied themselves
with articles from the shop, for which, of course, we must be paid.
11,249. In what way are the engagements with these parties
made?-When they ask for employment we tell them to go to the
superintendent, and if he requires them he takes them and fixes
their wages. He very likely tries them for a day, or perhaps for a
week, to see how they are to get on, and then he tells them what
their wages are to be.
11,250. In what way is the understanding expressed to them that
they are to be paid in cash at the end of each week?-They know
very well they will get their wages in cash, unless they take stuff
from the shop before the end of the week. It is cash that is always
the understanding. We don't wish them to take goods at all, and
we prefer that they should not take any.
11,251. Do they ever get cash in the course of the week?-Very
often.
11,252. To what extent?-Of course their wages are not a great
deal, and it cannot be to a great extent. They sometimes get 1s.
perhaps during the week; sometimes more and sometimes less.
11,253. But they always get goods when they want them so long
as they are in your employ?-Not always. In one or two cases we
have had to refuse goods.
11,254. Is not that really a payment of their wages in goods if they
choose to take them all in goods?-I don't think so, because we
don't wish them to take all in goods.
11,255. But, in fact, you don't pay them the money?-In such a
case we don't pay them the money.
11,256. If there is any money left to receive at the end of the week,
how do you pay it?-If they choose to go to the shop and take
goods, we must pay ourselves for these goods. They cannot expect
to get both goods and money too; but what we pay is money, and if
they choose to take goods, that is their own fault.
11,257. But in fact, they are not paid in money?-I think that, in
fact, they are paid in money, because they may get the money from
the office and take it back again to the shop, as they do in some
cases.
11,258. Do they sometimes get the money at the office?-Yes, and
sometimes they pay it back into the shop; but, of course we deduct
the amount of the accounts from what they have to receive.
11,259. I suppose it is very seldom that they get the money in the
office and pay it back to the shop?-That is done in a good many
cases.
11,260. Why do they do that if they have an account?-Because
if they have a balance to get it is paid to them in money, and very
likely what money they get is spent by them in the shop.
11,261. Do you mean that when they are settled with the end of the
week they get the balance they have receive in money and spend it
in the shop?-Yes, they very often, do that. If they require to
spend it at all, they very likely spend it where they know they can
get the best value.
11,262. Of the eighty people mentioned in the list you have handed
in, how many may there be under fifteen years of age?-There are
very few under fifteen; think only two or three.
11,263. Are all the rest of the males under eighteen or twenty?-
Not all. The carpenters, of course, are married men and have
families; but most of the people in the list are women; we have
very few boys.
11,264. Have the carpenters, the sailmakers and riggers all credit
accounts with you?-Yes.
11,265. Out of the fish-curers, nineteen appear to be males?-Yes,
men and boys. I think there are four men, and the others are all
grown-up lads, except two or three young boys.
11,266. And the women may be of all ages?-Yes. With regard to
the weekly settlement with them, what I said had reference to
those living in the town; but we have about twenty living in
Whiteness, eight or ten miles distant, and these are only paid
monthly.
11,267. Where do they get their supplies?-They live with their
own families, and they don't require to buy provisions like people
living in town; but if they need anything they come to us for it.
11,268. I understand Mr. Leask is extensively engaged in the Faroe
fishing?-Yes; he owned eight fishing vessels that went to Faroe
last year. He did not have so many in previous years.
11,269. Has he an interest in any others as a partner of any
company?-He has no interest in any others, but he acted as
agent for other two.
11,270. What is the nature of the engagement that is made with the
fishermen who go to Faroe?-The Faroe fishing is a joint
speculation between the owner of the vessel and the crew. The
owner supplies the ship, thoroughly equipped for the voyage, and
furnishes sufficient salt to cure the fish, with all other necessary
materials; and he also supplies the crew, with one pound of bread
per day.
11,271. Does he supply all the lines required?-That is a different
affair. What I have mentioned is his portion of the supplies-the
ship and one pound of bread per man per day, and the salt; but the
salt is deducted from the proceeds of the fishing as part of the
expenses of curing. The owner also supplies the men with what
advances they require in the way of lines, hooks, clothes, and
stores.
11,272. These, however, are not supplied by the owner, but merely
advanced by him?-Yes. All that the owner supplies is the ship,
equipped for sea and biscuit at the rate of one pound per man per
day. The men supply themselves with small stores, such as tea,
coffee, butcher-meat, and anything they require. They also furnish
lines and hooks, and what clothing they require. The owner puts
the salt on board; generally about 20 tons, and sometimes as high
as 30 tons, according to the size of the vessel.
11,273. What proportion does the salt put on board bear to the
total capacity of the vessel?-One ton of salt is expected to cure
one ton of fish.
11,274. Do you not put on board a larger supply of salt in order to
allow for waste?-We generally put as much salt as the vessel can
stow, after being filled up with water-casks, oil-casks, bread,
ballast, and so on.
11,275. What are the oil-casks for?-To preserve the livers of the
fish. They are put into these casks, and made into oil after the
vessel has returned.
11,276. Are the lines, and hooks, and small stores, which are
supplied by the men, generally taken from the merchant as
outfitter?-Yes.
11,277. And they are charged against the men in their accounts?-
Yes.
11,278. At the end of the season, when the men come to settle,
how is the arrangement with them carried out?-The men, of
course, get all the money due to them.
11,279. What number of men may there be on board one of these
smacks?-With one vessel we have had crew of 18, and with
another we have had a crew of 11. The crews vary between
these numbers; and of [Page 277] these men, perhaps two-thirds
are what are called full-shares-men; perhaps one-sixth will be
half-shares-men, and the other sixth quarter-shares-men. I now
show the account of the 'Anaconda' for last year.
11,280. I see that the vessel's proportion of the fish was one half:
that goes to the owner?-Yes.
11,281. How many men were in the crew?-Sixteen.
11,282. Of these, 13 had full shares and were called
shares-men?-Yes.
11,283. John Isbister had a three-quarter share?-Yes. He would
perhaps be an ordinary seaman, not an able seamen. The able
seamen have full shares, and the others have less, according to
their quality.
11,284. I see that three men had three-quarter shares, while one
had as low as a half?-Yes; in some cases they have only been on
one voyage. The smacks generally make two voyages, and
sometimes three. Perhaps after the first voyage, a boy or a man
may be ill, and has to leave, and his proportion of the fish is
ascertained at the time when he leaves.
11,285. Are the hooks, and lines, and outfit, supplied to the men,
deducted from their own account, or from the account of the
crew?-They are deducted in each man's own private account;
each man has his own account, separate from the account of the
crew. There is one account kept for what has been got on behalf
of the company, and then everything else is put into the account
for the men.
11,286. There is a statement made out for each ship annually,
showing the gross fish and oil, and also the charge, consisting of
various things?-Yes.
11,287. But the gross fish and oil, as entered here [showing], must
appear somewhere else in detail?-We have another book in
which we put the amount of the weight. The skipper knows the
number of the fish, but he cannot tell their weight until they are
dried. When they are cured, the amount of the fish is entered in
the book.
11,288. And the estimate made of each man's share is made after
weighing the dry fish?-Yes; or after selling the dry fish. The fish
are weighed in the store, and then sold, perhaps in October or
November; and as soon as the price is ascertained, the account is
made up.
11,289. In the case of the 'Caroline' in 1870, the statement shows
£481, 0s. 3d. as the total proceeds of the sale of her fish?-Yes.
11,290. The first thing you do after having ascertained the total
proceeds of the sale of the fish is to deduct from that the
charges?-Yes.
11,291. You charge these as curing 281/6 tons at 50s. per ton, dry
fish, £70, 8s. 4d.?-Yes; that includes the salt.
11,292. 'Removing to Lerwick, 5s.-£7, 0s. 10d.?'-Yes; the fish
were at Whiteness and had to be brought here.
11,293. 'Master's fee, 6s. 3d. per ton?'-Yes. I should explain
that the masters generally have 10s. per ton, and the mates 2s. 6d.;
but in this case the master and the mate agreed to go equal, and
divide the extras together, so that instead of 10s. and 2s. 6d., they
had 6s. 3d. each.
11,294. That was £8, 16s. 11/2d. to each?-Yes.
11,295. The second mate's extra of 1s. 6d. came to £2, 2s. 3d., and
then the score money is charged at £24, 19s. 6d.: what is that?-
The men have 6d. for every score of fish they catch, as an
encouragement to them to do their utmost. That sum is taken off
the gross, and is divided among the men according to the number
of scores each has taken.
11,296. The next entry is, 'Bait at Shetland £6, and Faroe £5, 2s.
8d.?'-Yes; the master employs people to get bait for him here
and at Faroe.
11,297. He does so at the expense of the whole partnership?-Yes.
11,298. These charges being deducted; there remains £347, 14s.
7d., the vessel's proportion of which is £173, 17s. 4d., and the rest
is divided among the crew according to their different shares?-
Yes.
11,299. Is the charge of 50s. per ton for curing, a uniform
charge?-In some years it is higher. It has cost us as much as
55s., but 50s. is the uniform rate.
11,300. Is that charge according to an agreement made at the
beginning of the season with the men?-The agreement at the
commencement of the season is, that all necessary expenses shall
be deducted.
11,301. Then, if the merchant finds that the expense curing is
greater than 50s., is he entitled to increase that charge in the final
account with the men?-Yes. The men are only entitled to one
half of the net proceeds of the speculation.
11,302. Are your agreements with the men, at the commencement
of the season, in writing or in printing?-They are in writing,
never in printing.
11,303. But you do enter into a written agreement which each
man signs?-Sometimes, and sometimes not. Sometimes the
agreement does not bind them at all. We can get no damages from
them if they choose to break through it; it is simply a moral
agreement, not a legal one at all.
11,304. What is the use of having an agreement if it is not
binding?-Just to show their proportion of the speculation, and f
or the sake of making up the half-yearly returns for the Board of
Trade.
11,305. Have you a regular form of agreement?-I cannot say that
it is uniform; it has to be altered in some years.
11,306. Do you write out one annually for each smack?-No; it is
all one agreement, which is applicable to the whole of them; there
is no difference whatever. I shall send one of these agreements.
<Adjourned>.