1701. Do you deal with Mr Sinclair in the way which has been
described already by the Witnesses you have heard?-No.
1702. Do you deal in a different way?-Yes.
1703. How is that? You get wool from him to knit into shawls or
veils?-Yes; chiefly veils.
1704. The goods you get are entered in the passbook you have
produced, and the goods given in are entered at the end of it?-
Yes.
1705. Are the goods supplied to you always goods which you are
requiring for your own use?-Yes.
1706. You do not sell any of them, or get them for your
neighbours?-No; unless such goods as my own family require.
1707. Do you live with your own family?-Yes; with my mother.
1708. Do you get part of the payment for your shawls and veils in
money?-Yes; whenever I ask money I get it. I never asked a
shilling from Mr. Sinclair himself but that I always got it.
1709. When you got money for a shawl, how was it entered in the
book?-I cannot say anything about that.
1710. If you were to take two veils to Mr. Sinclair and ask the
money for them, do you think you would get it?-I cannot say,
because I never asked it; but whenever I asked for a small quantity
of money, such as 2s. or the like of that, I got it.
1711. What quantity of goods did you generally take at a time?-I
cannot say that either. I don't think I ever had money to get out of
his book. I was always due him something, and in that way I could
not ask him for money.
1712. Then your account was larger than the value of the articles
which you took to him?-Yes.
1713. If that was so, did you ever ask him for money at all?-Yes;
sometimes, when I was in a strait for money I asked him for a
little, and I got it.
1714. Then that was an advance, which he made when there was
nothing due to you?-Yes; I have asked him for money when I
was due him.
1715. But you don't know how that was entered in the pass-book,
or whether it was entered there at all?-No; I don't think it was
entered.
1716. I see there are entries in your pass-book: April 28, 1871,
cash 1s.; April 26, cash 6d.: is that the way the money was
entered?-Yes.
1717. There is an entry of worsted, 5d. was that worsted given to
you for the purpose of knitting shawls to Mr. Sinclair?-I asked
for worsted to buy, and I got it to knit for myself, and to sell again.
1718. Then it is entered in the pass-book just as goods?-Yes.
1719. Is there any difficulty made about giving you worsted in that
way and entering it in the pass-book?-No; whenever I ask for
worsted, I get it the same as any other thing out of the shop.
1720. Were you ever told that worsted was a money article?-No;
I never was told that, so far as I can remember.
1721. Have you dealt in any other shop than Mr. Sinclair's in this
way?-No; I have knitted for two and a half years for Mr, Sinclair.
1722. And always in the same way?-Yes.
1723. Are you a North Unst woman?-Yes.
1724. Do you live in Lerwick by yourself?-I live with my mother
and my two sisters in a room.
1725. Does your mother knit?-No; she spins.
1726. Does she spin your wool?-No; she gets wool from other
people to spin, and gets money for her work. She only spins for
those who employ her.
1727. Does she spin for the shops?-No; she spins generally for
ladies in the town, who employ her to make worsted for them.
1728. Ask her employers altogether ladies, not merchants?-They
are just merchants' wives, and ladies in the town-chiefly Dr.
Cowie's lady.
Lerwick, January 3, 1872, MRS ANN ARCUS, examined.
1729. You are a dresser in Lerwick?-Yes.
1730. How do you carry on that business? What is the nature of
it?-I sometimes make shawls myself, and sell them. There
[producing it] is a line of mine, which I got from Mr. Sinclair.
1731. Do you dress shawls or make them?-I dress shawls, and
sometimes I make them or get them made.
1732. What is the dressing business?-Washing the shawls, and
stretching them on the grass, and mending [Page 34] them and
making them ready for the market. The stitches sometimes give
way when they are stretched and then I mend them.
1733. Do you also bleach the shawls?-We whiten them with
brimstone.
1734. You do that before stretching them on the grass?-Yes.
1735. That is part of the washing process?-Yes.
1736. Does every shawl, after being knitted require to be so
dressed before it is sold?-Yes.
1737. The merchants don't buy shawls until after they are
dressed?-No.
1738. Are your transactions in dressing shawls always with the
knitters, or are they sometimes with the merchants?-Sometimes
they are with the merchants, and sometimes with the knitters.
1739. Then the merchants do buy shawls undressed?-No; they do
not buy them undressed, but they send some shawls out to be
worked for themselves; and it is these shawls I dress for them
1740 In that way a knitter who works for a merchant has nothing
to do with you?-No.
1741. When she has knitted a shawl with wool supplied by the
merchant, she takes it to the merchant, and he sends it to you to be
dressed?-Yes.
1742. It is only the knitters who work with their own wool who
come to you?-Yes.
1743. Do you also buy shawls from knitters yourself?-No; but I
get shawls made in the same way as the merchants do, and then I
sell them.
1744. To whom do you sell them?-To the merchants.
1745. Do you send any shawls south?-No.
1746. Do you sometimes sell knitted articles to the merchants on
behalf of the knitters?-Yes.
1747. When a knitter brings you a shawl to dress, I suppose she
pays you in money?-Yes.
1748. What is the usual for that?-There are different charges,
according to the size of the shawl; but for the general run of them
it is 6d.
1749. And that is always paid by the knitter to you in money?-
Yes.
1750. In what way is it that you are sometimes asked to sell
articles for the knitters?-Because I cannot always have them
dressed and ready for them to sell after the time they come in with
the goods and before they go away again. These women come
from the country, and I cannot have their things ready before they
want to go home again; and therefore I sell them for them before
they come back.
1751. You sell them as their agent?-Yes.
1752. And then you account to them for the price?-Yes. I get the
price from some of the merchants, but others mark it in their
books, and don't give lines. These merchants mark down the price
of the shawl, and the name of the woman who owns it.
1753. And she, when she comes to the merchant again, arranges
with him as to the price?-Yes.
1754. Is it within your knowledge that these shawls are always
paid for in goods?-The country girls don't want money, and don't
ask it. It is always clothing they need, and they get it.
1755. Then they just knit for the purpose of supplying themselves
with clothing?-Yes.
1756. How is it that they don't want money?-They have some
other way of doing at home, and I suppose they only want their
clothing from the shops in Lerwick.
1757. Then the knitting with them is an extra sort of
employment?-Yes; it is not exactly a livelihood for them.
1758. Is that the case with the town girls too?-No; they generally
depend on their knitting for a living.
1759. Do they regard it as a hardship not to get money?-I can
only speak for myself, not for them. When I have a shawl of my
own, and ask some money on it, I get it.
1760. Do the town girls come to you to sell their articles for
them?-No; they sell their own work themselves. I dress the
shawls for them, and they get the price themselves-sometimes in
money I suppose, to pay me with.
1761. You think they get sufficient money for their shawls from
the merchants, to pay your charge?-They get money somewhere
to pay me with: whether it is their own money or not I don't know.
I don't take anything but money.
1762. You give them credit sometimes until their shawl is sold?-
Yes.
1763. And then they come back you with the charge for
dressing?-Yes.
1764. You shown me a line: where did you get it?-I got it in Mr.
Robert Sinclair's shop-I think from his clerk.
1765. When?-When I sold my shawl-a shawl of my own, which
I knitted myself.
1766. You did not want anything particular at the time, and
therefore you took the line: was that so?-No. I asked him for a
little money on the shawl, and I got it; and then I got the line, so
that I could buy what I required afterwards as I needed it.
1767. Did you ask for money?-Yes; I asked for a little, and I got
the sum which is marked on the line as having been paid to me in
cash.
1768. He gave you 6s. in cash?-Yes.
1769. Was that all you wanted?-Yes. I did not ask for that sum, I
only said I wanted a little money, he gave that.
1770. The line, is in these terms:
'C Z 91-Cr. bearer value in goods twenty six
shillings 26s. stg.
'To cash 6s; to Vict. tartan 4s. 7d.
' ' White cotton, 6d.; wincey, 2s. 10d.
' ' Grey cotton, 6d.
'R. SINCLAIR & CO.
'C. S.
'28.12.71'
This was last Thursday?-Yes.
1771. Was the shawl with your own?-Yes.
1772. Then it was just a sale to Mr. Sinclair?-Yes.
1773. You got 6s. in cash and 8s. 5d. in goods, and the rest is still
due?-Yes, for me to get when I require it.
1774. Is that a usual way of doing business in Lerwick?-Yes; but
I have got the whole of the price in money from a merchant for a
shawl when asked for it-not for myself, but for a country girl.
1775. From whom have you got it all in money?-From Mr
William Johnston. The price was 20s.
1776. Is he a hosiery dealer, just in the same way as Sinclair &
Co., and Mr. Laurenson, and Mr. Linklater?-Yes. I have had
money from them all whenever I asked for it.
1777. Would the women get money from them if they were selling
the shawls themselves?-I cannot answer for that. I don't know
that they would.
1778. Is it not the fact that the reason why you are sometimes
asked to sell shawls for these women is that you can get the money
for them?-I don't ask any money for the country girls at all; they
never asked me to seek it.
1779. Do not the girls employ you to sell their shawls because they
think you may get some money from the merchants, when they
would not?-It is just because they think I can get a better price; at
least that is what I think is the reason. They don't bid me get
money.
1780. Do you think the merchants give you a better price?-They
think so.
1781. Perhaps you can make a better bargain for them?-They
have that idea.
1782. Have you never been asked by a country girl to sell a shawl
for her and to get money for it?-Never.
1783. Then, on the occasions when you have got money, it has
been for shawls which you have sold either for yourself or for
town girls?-Yes, but particularly for my self.
1784. Have you sold them for town girls, and got money for
them?-No; I have never asked money for any person but myself,
and I have always got it.
[Page 35]
1785. How many shawls may you sell for yourself in the course of
a year?-Sometimes there may be two.
1786. May there sometimes be three?-I could not tell the number
particularly, but I have always one or two in the course of the
twelvemonth.
1787. I suppose you are chiefly engaged with your dressing
business, and have not much time to knit shawls?-Yes; the
dressing is my only way of living.
1788. Are you a widow?-Yes.
1789. Have you often got lines similar to the one you have now
produced?-Yes. Whenever I sell a shawl to Mr. Sinclair I get
these lines, and then I give them to the girls to whom the shawls
belong.
1790. Then they don't always want the value of their shawls in
goods, but they sometimes take a line-Yes; and they keep it until
they want something else. They are always served with what they
want when they come with a line.
1791. You have not a pass-book with any of the merchants?-No.
1792. I suppose pass-books are only used where girls knit with the
merchants wool?-Yes.
1793. Do you keep a pass-book with any of the merchants for the
shawls which you dress for them?-No; I just get the money.
1794. Are you paid for them at the time?-Yes.
1795. Will the merchant send you a large consignment of shawls at
a time to be dressed?-Yes; sometimes he may send a good lot.
1796. And you return the lot you have got when they are finished,
and get paid for them when you return them?-Yes; in money.
1797. There is nothing entered in any book between you about
that?-No.
1798. Are you the largest dresser in Lerwick?-I don't know that I
am.
1799. Are there any others in the business?-Yes; there are a good
many.
1800. Do they live mostly at the Docks?-No; there are one or two
dressers who live at the Docks. They don't do so much as I do, but
Mr. Sinclair has dressers of his own who do more than I.
1801. Does he pay them day's wages?-No; I think he pays them
just as they work for him. The veils, neckties, and scarfs go by
dozens.
1802. Is that the way you charge for these things?-I charge 11s.
6d. for a dozen veils, and the same for a dozen neckties or scarfs. I
charge 6d. for every shawl, sometimes 3d. or 4d. if it is small, or
1s. if it is a very fine one.
1803. Have you ever sold shawls to any people except
merchants?-I have.
1804. Do you sometimes sell to private ladies?-Yes, and
gentlemen too.
1805. Do you sell to visitors in summer, and to people living in
Lerwick?-Yes.
1806. Do you consider you are likely to get a better bargain with
them than with the merchants?-I get the money from them.
1807. But you have no reason for dealing with them for the
purpose of getting the money, because you say you get money
from the merchants if you ask it?-Yes; but if a gentleman comes
and asks me for a shawl, he has nothing to give me except the
money, and I get it all in money then.
1808. Would you rather do with a gentleman or lady in that way
than with a merchant?-It is only sometimes that they can take a
shawl in that way; but the merchant always takes them.
1809. But would you prefer to deal with strangers rather than with
the merchants?-If they were always here, I should like it very
well.
1810. That is because you get a better bargain, and you are sure to
get all money?-Yes.
1811. Is it not rather a favour to you that the merchant gives you
money when you ask it?-I don't know whether it is a favour to
me, but I always get it when I ask it. But I don't have such a great
run of shawls as some of the other women have.
1812. It is rather out of your ordinary way to be selling shawls?-
Yes; but when I do make one and ask money, I get it.
1813. Have you ever got the whole price of a shawl in money?-
Yes.
1814. From the whole of merchants you have named?-No, only
from Mr. Johnston; and that was for a country girl, because she
was in need of it.
1815. That was a case in which you went out of your usual way,
because the girl required it?-Yes.
1816. Have you asked the whole money from any of the other
merchants?-No, I never did.
1817. You have only asked a part of it in money?-Yes.
1818. On a shawl worth 25s. that you were selling for yourself or
for a girl, how much might you, in a general way, ask in money?-
I have got as high as 10s. or 7s. 6d. or 5s., just as I asked it.
1819. But you never thought of asking the whole price of it in
money?-No; but I was always requiring something that the
merchants had to give me.
1820. Supposing you had a shawl to sell, would you give it to a
merchant for a lower price if he paid it down in cash, than if he
paid you in goods for it?-Yes; if I was requiring the cash, I
would.
1821. Would you not do it in any case?-I would be glad of the
money, certainly.
1822. Do you think it would be worth while for the knitters, as a
rule, to take a less price for their shawls and to get money for
them, rather than to go on in the present way?-I don't know
about that. For my own part, I should like if the people were to get
part of both-both money and articles. Nobody can live without
articles; and it is just as well to get them from the merchants who
buy our shawls, as to get the money.
1823. But if the merchants did pay all the price of the shawls in
money, it would just come back to them, because, as you say very
truly, people cannot do without some of the merchants' goods, and
the money would return to them in payment for their goods. Don't
you think, that would be a better system for all parties than the
present?-Those who need money would like to get it; but some
people don't stand so much in need of money as others. For
instance, if I were knitting shawls only, I would need most of the
price in money, because I have no other way of living but I don't
mean to say that girls who work merely for the sake of getting
clothing, require to get the whole price in money.
1824. But suppose they got all the price of their work in money,
might it not be easier for them to make the purchases of the goods
they require?-They would not get so much for their shawls then;
they could not expect it.
1825. That is because the merchant makes a profit upon the goods
he sells, as well as upon the shawls?-Yes.
1826. Are you aware whether it is a common thing in Lerwick, to
sell shawls cheaper for money than they would be given for
goods?-Yes, any person who required money would rather sell a
shawl for 1s. or 2s. less, in order to get it.
1827. Have you often seen that done?-Yes.
1828. Have you often done that yourself on behalf of the country
girls?-Yes.
1829. You mentioned a case where you got the whole price of a
shawl in money from Mr. Johnston: did you, in that case, say you
would give it for 2s. or 3s. less if you could get the whole price in
money?-Yes; because the girl required it, and told me to do that.
She wanted the money to pay her rent with.
1830. Was the price you got a fair price for the shawl?-It was at
that time.
1831. Is there anything else you wish to say on this subject?-I
have only to say that I think the girls ought to be very thankful to
the merchants, for they have done more for them than any one in
the place has done yet. They have bought their work, and then
they have gone and distributed it throughout the country. This
knitted work is not worn here; but the merchants have got a market
for it, and therefore I think the girls ought to be very grateful to
them.
[Page 36]
1832. Do you think they would not have got a market for their
goods themselves?-No; plenty of them would never have been
able to have gone to the market, even if they had thought of it.
1833. How long is it since that trade became general here?-I can
hardly tell; I was a little girl when it began. The first shawl I made
I got 7s. 6d. for, and I was very proud of it.
1834. How much would you get for that now?-They would not
buy such a thing now, the work was so open. I can just recollect of
it. I don't think I was much more than ten years at the time. I sold
it to Mr. Harrison, and he and Mr. Laurenson were about the first
who began to buy them. We got groceries and everything we
wanted then for our shawls.
1835. You do not get these things now, because the merchants
who buy the shawls don't have them?-They have them all except
groceries.
1836. With regard to the girls in town who sell the shawls to
merchants and get only goods in return, how do they do for a
living?-Some girls live with their parents, and can do very well.
1837. But a number of them live in rooms by themselves, and
perhaps have a parent or some other person to support out of their
earnings: how do they generally do for their food?-I can hardly
answer that. I don't know how they do; but I know that some of
the girls that I am in the habit of dressing the shawls for, come and
tell me they have sold a shawl today, and what they got for it, and
that they have got some money. Some of the merchants give them
money, and some of them tea, and worsted to knit another shawl
with; and that is just money.
1838. But if they have to make shawl with the worsted, they
cannot turn it into provisions?-No; but they will make another
shawl.
1839. And they may get 1s. or 2s. in money?-Yes.
1840. But if they only get 1s. or 2s. on each shawl, that is not
sufficient either to pay their house rent or to supply them with
provisions?-No; but I think there are some of them who may get
a shawl sold for all money, and then that pays the rent.
1841. They do happen to get that occasionally?-Yes; some lady
who wants one for a present to a friend might buy it from them.
That is the only way I can think of in which they can get their
provisions; but if it was the case that the merchants had groceries
in their shops, people would not require very much money, and
then they would get their livelihood.
1842. What kind of goods do you generally get for your country
girls in exchange for their shawls?-I do not buy them; they buy
them for themselves.
1843. You get lines, and they choose the goods for themselves
when they next come to town?-Yes.
1844. In that way you do not know what they get?-No; but I
always hear them say that they got very good bargains, and they
are generally well pleased.
1845. You say shawls are sometimes sold to a lady or gentleman
passing through the town; I suppose, in that case, there will be two
prices for them?-No.
1846. Would you ask from them the same price that you get from
the merchant in goods?-We might ask it, but, seeing the money,
we might give the shawl for less. Some people don't ask to have
the price reduced, but others do.
1847. You just make the best bargain you can, in each case?-Yes.
Lerwick, January 3, 1872, Mrs. ELIZABETH MOODIE, examined.
1848. Are you in the habit of knitting for any one in Lerwick?-
Yes; for Mr. Sinclair.
1849. Has any one asked you to come and give evidence here
to-day?-Yes; I was summoned.
1850. Did any one ask you besides that?-No.
1851. Do you knit with your own wool, or is it with wool supplied
to you by Mr. Sinclair?-Partly both, I generally have a shawl of
my own in hand, but I always knit for Mr. Sinclair.
1852. Do you keep a pass-book?-No; I never had a pass-book
with him.
1853. Are you paid in the same way both for your own shawls that
you sell, and for those that you knit for him?-No; generally when
I knit a shawl for Mr. Sinclair, he allows me so much for the
knitting of it; but when I sell a shawl, I price it myself.
1854. Is that price paid in the same way that the wages are paid to
you for knitting?-No.
1855. Is it paid to you in money in both cases; or in goods?-It is
paid in goods in both cases.
1856. Is there not a certain part of it, in both cases, that you can
get money for?-Yes. When I knitted for Mr. Sinclair before I
was married, he generally gave me money whenever I asked for it;
but since I had a house of my own, I generally manage my affairs
so that I do not have to ask him for money. I usually take clothes
for my children and myself from him without getting money at all;
but if I did ask him for money, I have no doubt he would give it to
me.
1857. Have you always got money when you asked for it?-Yes;
whenever I asked I got it.
1858. Do you generally take the whole value of your shawls in
goods?-Yes, I always do.
1859. And no money passes between you at all?-No, not since I
was married; but previously, when I asked him for money, I
always got it.
1860. Did you generally ask for a considerable part of the price of
your shawls in money?-Yes.
1861. How much might you get out of a 20s. shawl, for instance?-
Perhaps I might have asked him for 2s. or 2s, 6d., and so on,
money.
1862. Would that be about the usual thing?-Yes; that was
generally about the usual thing.
1863. Did you ever get the whole price of a shawl or of any
hosiery goods in money?-No; I never asked it.
1864. Do you live at home with your people, or did you live by
yourself before you were married?-I lived at home with my
father.
1865. So that you did not require any money with which to
purchase food for yourself?-No.
1866. You merely knitted to supply yourself with dress, or
whatever you wanted for yourself?-Yes.
1867. Did you require for your dress all the payments you received
for your knitting?-No, I cannot say that I required it all for
myself. I might have supplied some of my brothers or sisters with
any little thing they wanted.
1868. Did they repay you for that, or did you make a present of it
to them?-I generally made a present of it to them, as I was at
home.
1869. Would you have preferred to have been paid wholly in
money?-I should prefer to be paid part of both, if I could manage
it.
1870. Would you prefer to get half the price in money?-Yes, I
would like that very well.
1871. Could you not get one half of it in money if you asked for
it?-I believe if I had asked for it I could have got it, but I did not
ask it.
1872. Then, if you preferred it, why did you not ask for it?-I told
you I managed my affairs in such a way that I did not need it.
1873. But you said you would have preferred to have had half of it
in money?-Provided I could have got it, I should have liked it
very well; but I did not ask that.
1874. Why did you not ask it? Do you think there would have
been a difficulty in getting it?-I don't know; I only know that I
never asked for one half of it in money.
1875. Why?-I generally took a line for what remained to me
upon a shawl. I might have got the money instead of a line, but I
did not ask it.
1876. You have taken lines sometimes?-Yes, I generally took
them.
1877. Have you any of these lines have none just now?-No, I
have none just now.
1878. When you get a line, do you always take it [Page 37] back to
the shop, and get goods?-Yes; I sometimes take it back to the
shop.
1879. What do you do with it at other times?-Sometimes a friend
may require a line from me, and give me money for it.
1880. If you were selling your goods for ready money, would you
take a less price for them?-Sometimes I have seen me take a
shilling or so less if it was all money.
1881. But you said you never got the whole price of a shawl in
money?-Occasionally I sold a shawl to a stranger in the place in
the summer time, and I might give it to him for a shilling less.
1882. Do you generally get a smaller price when you sell to a
stranger in that way?-Perhaps I may sometimes have asked a
smaller price, as it was the money I was to get.
1883. If you wanted the money, why did you not, when selling
your shawls to a merchant, ask him for the ready money, and take
1s. or 2s. less?-I don't know. I never thought of that.
1884. Was it not because it was not the practice here to give
money?-Yes; that is the truth.
1885. Of course a shawl which you sold to a stranger in that way
would be one knitted with your own worsted which you had
bought?-Yes.
1886. Do you always pay ready money for your worsted?-
Always.
1887. Do you always buy your worsted from the merchants in
town?-Sometimes; and sometimes, when the country people
come down, they have worsted with them, and I buy it from them
too.
1888. Is the price the same in both cases?-Yes, always.
1889. If you were selling a shawl to a merchant and taking goods,
and if you asked to have part of the goods in worsted, is there any
objection made to that way of dealing?-No; I never heard any
objection made to that.
1890. Did you ever get worsted as part of the goods you received
in payment for your shawls?-Yes.
1891. Often?-Not very often; sometimes.
1892. You never knew of any objection being made to giving you
worsted as part of what you were to get for your shawls?-No.
1893. Or for a line?-No; I never heard any objection.