1000. Then, if you want tea or any other goods, must go direct to
the store at Scalloway for them?-Yes, if we have not got money.
If we had money, then we could go to any store we like, and buy
what we want.
1001. Have the Burra people any complaints to make with regard
to oysters?-I don't deal in them.
1002. You were engaged in the herring fishery. Was there any
special complaint made in the memorial, or have you any special
complaint to make just now, as to that fishery?-The herring
fishery is carried on under the same restrictions as the ling,
1003. You are bound to hand over the fish to Messrs. Hay, and
they are entered into the account the same as the others?-Yes.
1004. When you prepared that petition some years ago, did you
land your herring on the island, or were they handed in to some
vessel?-There were two or three years about that time when a
vessel came to Hamnavoe, and we measured them on board of her.
When she was full, we had to measure them on shore.
1005. Who sent that vessel?-It was a man who came with a
vessel from Hamburg for herrings, and he bought them from
Messrs. Hay.
1006. Did the man pay you for the fish?-No; we had nothing to
do with him, so far as the paying was concerned.
1007. Was it one of the grievances set forth in the petition, that
you were paid in goods for these herrings, while the Wick
fishermen got a larger price in cash?-I don't remember about
that.
1008. You say you signed the obligation about eight years ago.
Have you ever endeavoured or wished to break through it and to
obtain your liberty?-No.
1009. You have never attempted that?-No.
1010. Does that obligation bind your family as well as yourself?-
Yes, if they like to do it.
1011. But in the obligation itself did you become bound that your
sons as well as yourself should fish for Messrs. Hay?-Yes.
1012. Have had to pay liberty money for any of your sons?-Yes; I
had to pay it for one of my sons-Robert Smith. He was two years
away. One year he was with Mr. Harrison, and the year following
he was with Mr. Garriock, and I paid liberty money in these years
to Messrs. Hay on his account.
1013. How long ago was that?-I think it was three years ago.
1014. Then the obligation to fish applied to the Faroe fishing as
well as to the home fishing?-Yes; to the whole fishings.
1015. Have you ever had to pay liberty money for your sons
leaving the home fishing and going to some other employment?-
No; they never followed the home fishing. They would not go to
it.
1016. Then, if a man does not choose to go to the home fishing at
all, he is free?-Yes.
1017. But if a man does go to the home fishing he is to fish for the
landlord?-Yes, if he be a tenant.
1018. But he need not fish unless he likes?-No; it is only if he
does fish, and if he is a person holding land, that he must fish for
Messrs. Hay.
1019. Or if he is the son of a landholder, and living in his father's
house?-Yes.
1020. I believe the liberty money amounts to 20s.?-Yes.
1021. When is it paid?-When we settle.
1022. Is it deducted from the amount due?-Yes.
1023. Do you know of any cases where that liberty money has
been paid back by Messrs, Hay?-Yes.
1024. Was it paid back to you?-Yes; it was paid back to me for
my son.
1025. Then the money you mentioned just now as having been
paid by you for your son was paid back to you?-Yes; it was paid
back to me afterwards.
1026. How long afterwards?-I think about a year and a half.
1027. Did you ask for it to be paid back?-Yes; I asked it over and
over again before I got it. I think I asked for it two or three times,
if I remember right.
1028. Did they give it back to you as a favour?-Yes.
1029. Was the amount of liberty money fixed in the obligation
which you signed?-Yes.
1030. Did you get a copy of that obligation?-No.
1031. Have you been spoken to about that obligation since you
signed it, and told that it was in force?-Never, except when they
charged liberty money. I objected to pay it; and their answer was,
that I had signed an obligation to pay it, and therefore that I was
obliged to do so.
1032. Do you know any one else who has paid liberty money
within the last year or two?-Yes; Andrew Laurenson paid it for
his brother.
1033. Is Laurenson here?-No.
1034. Why did he have to pay it for his brother?-Because I think
the father was not able, and Andrew had just to pay it.
1035. Were both the Laurensons living with their father?-No,
Andrew was not living with him; he was married, and had gone
away. But Robert was living with his father; and Andrew paid the
money for the brother, because his father could not.
1036. Has there been any other case?-Yes; Peter Henry paid
liberty money for himself about three years ago.
1037. Was Laurenson's money paid back?-Yes.
1038. After he had asked it?-I don't know if he asked it, but I
know that it was paid back.
1039. Was Henry's paid back?-I don't know.
1040. Did these cases all occur about the same year?-Yes, all
about the same time.
1041. Is it the case that at time you had several bad fishing
seasons?-Yes.
1042. And is it the case that at that time Messrs. Hay were largely
in advance to the fishermen in Burra?-Yes; for some years they
were largely in advance.
1043. Did they want to get the young men to go to the Faroe
fishing in order to get their parents out of debt: did they assign that
as a reason for charging liberty money?-Yes, sometimes they did.
1044. Did they tell you, or did you understand, that these fines
were required in order to induce the young men to go to the Faroe
fishing, and to pay off the debt due by their parents?-Yes, I
understood that.
1045. Were you told that by Messrs. Hay at the time?-Yes.
1046. Are these the only cases in which such fines have been
exacted, within your knowledge?-Yes.
1047. Have all the landholders since that time fished for Messrs.
Hay, to your knowledge?-Yes; they have all fished for them at
the home fishing.
1048. And at the Faroe fishing too?-There are very few of the
landholders who go to the Faroe fishing.
1049. Are there many men in Burra who go to the Faroe fishing?-
Yes, a considerable number.
1050. But these are the younger men?-Yes; generally they are.
1051. And they are not bound in any way?-No, are not now.
1052. Do they generally ship with the Messrs. Hay?-Some of
them do, and some do not. It is not general thing with them to do
so.
1053. They can do as they like?-Yes.
1054. Can your sons do as they like in that matter, and ship with
any person they please?-Yes.
1055. Do they go to the Faroe fishing?-Yes.
1056. And you are not asked to pay liberty money for them
now?-No.
1057. Is that because Messrs. Hay have ceased to require payment
of liberty money?-Yes; they thought the thing was not legal, and
they have given it up.
1058. Are your sons living in your house still?-One of them is,
but the other one is married, and is away from me.
1059. And the one who is living with you goes to the Faroe
fishing?-Yes.
1060. Have you ever cured fish for yourself?-No.
1061. Then you don't know from your own experience, [Page 22]
whether you would have a larger profit if you did cure them on
your own account?-No; not from my own experience.
1062. Except when you signed the document you have mentioned,
was there any occasion on which you were told by any of the firm
of Hay & Co. that you were bound to fish for them only?-I don't
remember any other time.
Lerwick, January 2, 1872, THOMAS CHRISTIE, examined.
1063. You are a fisherman in Burra, and a tenant under Messrs.
Hay?-Yes.
1064. You have been present during the examination of the two
preceding witnesses?-Yes.
1065. Do you concur with them as to the most of the facts which
they have stated?-Yes.
1066. Did you sign the obligation which has been spoken to?-I
signed it once, about eight years ago.
1067. Did you do so willingly, or did you refuse first?-I did so
willingly.
1068. Had you not received warning to leave your ground first?-
No, I don't think it.
1069. Were you ever told that you would have to leave your
ground if you did not sign it?-Yes; I suppose I was.
1070. Have you complied ever since with that obligation to fish for
Hay & Co.?-Yes.
1071. You did not try to break it in any way?-No.
1072. Have you ever had to pay liberty money for yourself or any
of your children?-No.
1073. Have you cured fish for yourself?-No.
1074. Is it your opinion, as well as that of the other witnesses, that
you would make a larger profit if you cured your own fish?-I
think we would.
1075. Can you give me any reason for supposing that?-No; no
particular reason, because I never cured them.
1076. But you know that is the general belief?-Yes.
1077. Have you any knitters in your family?-Yes.
1078. The letter you have signed says that they are invariably paid
in goods, both for the goods they sell, and also for their wages
when engaged to knit for the hosiery dealers: is that so?-Yes.
1079. Have you ever sold any articles for your daughters?-Yes.
1080. Do you sometimes take the goods they knit the shops and
sell them for them?-Yes.
1081. Where have you taken them to?-To Linklater.
1082. Do you keep an account with him?-No.
1083. You just take the article in and sell it?-Yes, and get what
they want for it.
1084. Do your daughters knit with their own wool?-No, they knit
with wool supplied by Mr. Linklater.
1085. Is it through you that the dealing generally takes place?-
No; not through me.
1086. Your daughters generally manage it themselves?-Yes.
1087. But you have brought in articles which they have knitted?-
Yes; on one or two occasions.
1088. On these occasions what took place?-I was just ordered to
get some things from the shop, and I got them.
1089. Did you ever ask for money?-No, they never expected to
get money, they never asked for it.
1090. You were told the articles that you were to bring home, and
the value that was to be put upon the shawls?-Yes.
1091. Did you not leave the fixing of the price to the merchant?-
He knew the price himself. It was marked down in the book, what
I brought in for them was added to the account.
1092. Do your daughters have a book?-No; but the merchant
enters these things in his own book.
1093. Then they have an account with Mr. Linklater-which is
kept in his book?-Yes.
1094. What is the name of your daughter?-Elizabeth Christie.
1095. Is the account in Mr. Linklater's book kept in her name?-
Yes.
1096. You say that you buy your goods until the end of the year
from your landlord's shop: is it from the shop at Scalloway or in
Lerwick that you generally buy?-I buy from both places.
1097. Is there an account in your name in both shops?-Yes; I can
go to any place I like.
1098. And you get the same class of goods at both?-I don't think
there is much difference.
1099. Do you get every kind of goods at both shops?-Yes.
Lerwick, January 2, 1872, CHARLES SINCLAIR, examined.
1100. You are a fisherman in Burra?-Yes.
1101. Do you hold any land there?-No, I have only a room, and
pay rent for it, in an old mansion-house on the island.
1102. To whom do you pay rent?-To Messrs. Hay.
1103. How do you make your living?-By fishing, and sometimes
by going as master of a small coasting vessel.
1104. Does that vessel belong to you?-No; I sometimes get
employment from the owners in Lerwick,-from Mr. Leask, or
Messrs. Hay, or others.
1105. You have not a permanent employment as master?-No, but
I am competent for taking charge of a vessel at times.
1106. Is that a vessel employed in the fishing trade?-Yes, and
sometimes in the coasting trade, taking cured fish to any port in
England or Scotland.
1107. You have been present during the examination of the
previous witnesses during the day?-Yes.
1108. Do you concur generally in what they have stated?-So far
as I can remember it, I do.
1109. Is there anything additional you want to say?-Yes. Our
wishes are to have our liberty to fish for whoever we please, and to
make the best we can of our fish.
1110. But you are not bound in any way?-I am bound to fish for
Messrs. Hay in the long-line and herring fishing in the island.
1111. Did you sign any obligation-to fish for Messrs. Hay only?-
No.
1112. Then in what way are you bound?-By our father signing an
obligation.
1113. Are you the son of a Burra man?-Yes.
1114. Did your father sign the obligation eight years ago?-Yes.
1115. What reason have you to suppose that binds you to fish?-
My father told me when he came home, that neither he nor his
sons were to be allowed to fish to any other men than Messrs. Hay.
1116. Is it eight years since he told you that-Yes.
1117. Is your father alive?-Yes, he is here. His name is John
Sinclair.
1118. Have you attempted or wished to fish for any other than
Messrs. Hay?-Yes; in the Faroe fishing, but nowhere else.
1119. Was there any objection taken to your doing so?-No;
because at the time when I broke off from Messrs. Hay they could
not suit me with a vessel. I was competent to take charge of a
vessel, and they had none to give me, and for that reason they let
me off.
1120. Do you go in for the home fishing?-Sometimes.
1121. Have you fished for any other than Messrs. Hay in that
fishing?-No, not in the long-line fishing.
1122. Have you proposed to do so?-No.
1123. Then you have never been interfered with in any way
yourself?-No, not further than that. Occasionally I have had to
fish a little for them when I was not engaged at anything else.
[Page 23]
1124. How had you to fish to them?-To support myself.
1125. But if you had chosen, you might have engaged with any
other merchant than Messrs. Hay?-No, not for the home fishing.
1126. Why do you say that?-Because we were made to
understand that we would not be allowed to do so.
1127. You say that your only reason for understanding that, was
what your father had told you. What would have been the result to
you if you had done it?-The result would have been, that my
father would have been turned out on my account.
1128. Is that what you were afraid of?-Yes.
1129. And is that the reason why you never tried to get engaged
with any other merchant?-Yes.
1130. Had you ever to pay liberty money?-No.
1131. Had your father ever to pay liberty money for you or any of
his sons?-I believe he had to pay for one who died.
1132. Do you know that yourself?-I am confident of it, from
having heard about it.
1133. Was that when you were young?-Yes.
1134. But that was a good many years ago?-Yes. I cannot
remember the time.
1135. Is that all you wish to say?-I remember in my early years,
when I was a young fellow, and commenced to fish along with my
father, we went chiefly to the herring fishing, and we had to catch
herring for Messrs. Hay at a very low price. We had a certain
allowance of meal, which I suppose would amount to about
twenty-four pounds for seven or eight days; and it was hardly fit to
sustain a family of about eight people. My father had to find boats
and nets with which to proceed to the fishing, and that put him into
debt; and about four years ago I and my brothers had to come good
for that debt.
1136. Was that an old debt which your father had contracted?-It
was a debt accumulated chiefly in the herring fishing.
1137. When was it begun to be incurred?-About fifteen or
sixteen years ago.
1138. Had the debt increased, or did it merely stand over?-It was
not regular; it sometimes rose and sometimes fell.
1139. But your father was constantly in debt up to four years
ago?-Yes, so far as I can remember.
1140. Was that debt made out by the annual accountings which we
have heard about to-day? Was it a debt in the books of Messrs.
Hay for provisions supplied at the store?-Yes, and for fishing
materials.
1141. Was it for a boat also?-It was chiefly for a new boat and
nets. He purchased a new boat, which put him further down than
ever.
1142. Was it purchased about fifteen or twenty years ago?-No; it
is perhaps ten or twelve years ago.
1143. And you say that about four years ago this debt became so
large that you and your brother had to become bound for it?-Yes.
1144. How did that happen?-Because they wrote out, or
pretended to write out, what might be called a travelling-ticket, or
a warning to remove off the land.
1145. At what term?-Was it at Martinmas?-As far as I recollect,
it was.
1146. Some people have taken special objection to the short
Martinmas warning. Do you concur in that objection?-Yes. It is
only forty days in some cases.
1147. And your father got that warning?-Yes.
1148. How much was he in debt at that time?-Perhaps from £9 to
£12. I and my brother Robert had to pay £6, and I believe that was
the half of it.
1149. Did you sign any document obliging you pay that money?-
No.
1150. Then how did you become bound?-On account of my
father being warned out.
1151. But in what way did you become bound? Did you merely
promise by word of mouth that you would pay it?-Yes; we had to
become good for it.
1152. But you did not sign any agreement?-No; we handed over
the money-the sum of £6.
1153. Was that money which you had earned?-Yes.
1154. Was it due to you in your account with Messrs. Hay?-No; I
had it in my pocket. I had saved it in other employments.
1155. Then you had no difficulty in getting money for your wages
when you wanted it? You were not obliged to take your wages in
goods?-No, not our wages; but we have to take the proceeds of
our fishing in that way, to a certain extent. They will give us
part of that in goods.
1156. Is that the proceeds of the Faroe fishing?-No; of the home
fishing.
1157. In the Faroe fishing, what arrangement do you make about
the payment of your share?-We can get it all in money if we
choose to have it.
1158. You have been at the Faroe fishing?-Yes.
1159. There is no difficulty in that fishing in getting cash at the
end of the season?-No; not at the settling times, which take place
once a year.
1160. How do you do about your supplies for the Faroe fishing?-
We generally apply for them to the merchant we fish for.
1161. And you get a supply from him of provisions, clothing,
fishing material, and everything you require?-Yes.
1162. That is marked down against you in the book, and deducted
from the price of your fish at the end of the season?-Yes.
1163. Is the price for these fish fixed only at settling time?-Yes.
1164. Who does the boat belong to in which you go to the Faroe
fishing?-I have been at that fishing for different owners.
1165. Does the boat always belong to the merchant, or does it
sometimes belong to the men themselves?-No; it always belongs
to the merchant.
1166. But the whole material required for that fishing, except the
boat, belongs to the men?-Yes; and it is purchased by them from
the shipowner. We have to find our hooks and lines and
provisions. That is all we have to find, the owner finds the rest.
1167. Are you a married man?-Yes, I have a wife and two
children.
1168. How are your family supported during your absence at the
Faroe fishing? Where do they get their supplies?-They can get
them in the owner's store if they require them, but, for myself, I do
not require to go there. I can get them at any place I please.
1169. Is it a common thing for the other men who go to the Faroe
fishing, to buy their goods at the owners store?-When they don't
have money to buy them at other places, they go there for them.
1170. But is that a common thing?-I cannot say exactly. I
suppose it is not uncommon.
1171. Does it often happen that a man employed in the Faroe
fishing finds an account against him in the owner's store for
provisions at settling time as large as the amount which he has to
receive for his fishing?-I am not acquainted with that myself.
1172. When you are away at the Faroe fishing, and your family
have occasion for money, is there any difficulty in getting it from
the parties who employ you?-Not if they know we have money to
get. If we have a balance in our favour, they are not against giving
it.
1173. How long are you generally absent at that fishing?-
Sometimes six months, sometimes seven, and sometimes as low as
three months.
1174. Suppose you had been away from home for two or three
months, there would certainly be two or three months take of fish,
if it was a middling season, for which money would be due to
you?-Yes.
1175. Would your wife at home be able to get an advance of
money from the merchant in that case, if she required it for the
support of the family?-Yes.
1176. There is no difficulty made about that?-No.
1177. Is it a common thing in Shetland for a man's wife to get
such advances of money during his absence-Yes, they would get
a small sum of money, but the merchant would prefer them to take
goods.
[Page 24]
1178. If she comes for the money is she ever told to take it in
goods; or is there any understanding that she is to take it in
goods?-I cannot answer that, because I am not acquainted with
what goes on while I am away. I can only speak to what has come
within my own experience.
Lerwick, January 2, 1872, GILBERT GOODLAD, examined.
1179. You are a fisherman in Burra, and you hold land there under
Messrs. Hay?-Yes.
1180. You have been present during the examination of the
previous witnesses?-Yes.
1181. Do you agree with most of what Williamson and Smith have
said?-Yes.
1182. Is it all correct?-Yes; all correct.
1183. You generally go to the Faroe fishing?-I do.
1184. How long may you be absent at that fishing?-It just
depends upon the season: sometimes we may be away for perhaps
four months. We are generally home once in the middle of the
time. We are sometimes we may be away longer than four
months, sometimes not so long ago.
1185. What merchants have you generally engaged with?-I have
engaged with a great many merchants in Shetland.
1186. There has been no objection made to your going with any
merchant you liked?-No.
1187. Messrs. Hay have not objected to that?-No. They might
not have been requiring me when I was going, and therefore I
could go where I liked.
1188. When you go there, how do you arrange for your family to
be supplied during your absence?-The merchant supplies them
during my absence.
1189. What merchant?-Whatever owner I am out for.
1190. When your wife wants supplies, does she go to his shop for
them?-Yes.
1191. If she wants money, does she ask it from him too?-She
may, but sometimes she has been refused it. They are not willing
to give money. If they think we are doing well at the fishing, they
will advance her a little money; but if they think we are not
succeeding well, they will not give it, because they would think
then that we might come to be in their debt.
1192. Is there any communication with the vessels when they are
at the fishing?-Yes. Some of the vessels may go home and come
back again, or an accident may occur on board of one of them, and
she may go home and give an account of how the fishing is going
on. They may also send letters from Faroe, by Denmark, to
Shetland; so that there are several ways of communicating from
there to here.
1193. Who are some of the parties with whom you have shipped
for the Faroe fishing?-I have been out for Mr. Garriock in
Reawick, Mr. Garriock in Lerwick, Mr. Leask, and Messrs. Hay.
1194. But, whoever you go out for, your wife generally goes to
their shop for her supplies?-She is obliged to go there, if we have
no other means to live on.
1195. Can you tell me one occasion on which she went and was
refused money, or on which you have asked them to give her
money and it has been refused?-I am not quite sure that there has
been any occasion of that kind, because we know that if we are not
fishing well, we need not ask for money.
1196. Have you been told that by any of the shopkeepers?-I have
seen it, and experienced it.
1197. When, and how?-Even during the last season with the
Faroe fishing, there were some of the merchants who would not
make an advance to the people when they required it.
1198. Did they require to get an advance of money?-They might
try to live on through the season without money, and they might
have done it if they could only have got some meal and some
bread to live upon.
1199. Do you mean that the people at the fishing had to do so?-
No; the people whom they left at home got so little that they could
hardly subsist upon it, and they had to try some other means in
order to enable them to live.
1200. What other means had they?-They might have a cow or
two, and make butter, and sell the milk, and buy a little meal with
that.
1201. Do any of the members of your family knit?-I have two
daughters who knit
1202. Do they get money for that knitting?-Not one cent.
1203. Have you sold the hosiery work for them?-I never did.
They always manage these matters for themselves.
1204. Have you ever represented their case to the merchants, and
said that they ought to pay them in cash?-No. It is no use saying
anything of the kind, because the merchants would not give them
money. There is one thing I should like to say with regard to the
Faroe fishing. We come into the town of Lerwick, or any other
port in Shetland where the vessels happen be fitting out, and
commence to fit the vessels so as to have them ready for sea. We
have to go on board, and have only an allowance of one pound of
bread a day for every day we are on board the vessel. We have
nothing else to live on during the time we are fitting out the
vessels, and if we are absent on any account whatever during the
time the vessels are being fitted out they charge 2s., 6d. per day for
that, in order to put a man in our place.
1205. Is not that merely a part of your bargain with the merchants
for whom you engage to fish?-It is part of the bargain, but it is a
very bad part.
1206. If you did not choose to make a bargain of that kind, you
would not be bound to carry it out?-That is true; but the poor
people here cannot strike as they do in England: because they are
so poor, the merchants can just do as they please with them.
1207. Did you sign the obligation eight years ago which has been
spoken to by the previous witnesses?-No.
1208. Do you go in for the home fishing at all?-Yes; I am a
fisherman in the Burra Isles.
1209. Do you consider yourself bound to fish only for Messrs. Hay
in the home fishing?-I do.
1210. Have you ever been told so by Messrs. Hay?-Yes, I have
been told that; and there was a document made out, but I did not
sign it. I have got no notice about the matter since then, because
we knew that we had to carry on the fishing in the same way.
1211. Have you ever paid liberty money?-No, I never had
anybody to pay it for, and I never paid for myself.
1212. Have you ever asked to have the price of your fish fixed at
the beginning of the season?-No.
1213. Is there not a feeling among the men, that that would be a
better mode of dealing than the present?-We durst not go in for
anything of the kind.
1214. Would it not be a better plan in the Faroe fishing?-We
could not do anything of the kind there, because the merchants
don't know what the price of the fish will be until they can be sold.
The market may rise.
1215. You take your chance of the markets there-Yes; whatever
chance the merchant gets, we get too. We run shares with the
merchants in that fishing.
1216. You are not paid at so much per cwt.?-No; we have shares.
One half of the fish that are brought in by the vessel belongs to the
crew, and the other half belongs to the owners.
1217. Then you are not serving for wages there at all?-No; they
give us wages if we have to go to Iceland in the fall of the year but
they give no wages for the summer fishing at Faroe. It is just a
partnership that is made up for the fish that are caught.
1218. Is there anything further you wish to say?-No; I think
everything which we have to say has been pretty well said by the
other men.
1219. Are all the thirteen men here who signed the letter to me
about Burra?-Yes.