The testimony of Gertrude Hunter, was taken at 5:50 p.m., on July 22,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Hunter, would you stand please and take the oath.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. HUNTER. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the
staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President
Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the
Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order No.
11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No.
137.
Pursuant to the rules governing the taking of testimony by the
Commission, you are entitled to have an attorney here if you wish
and you are entitled to 3-days' notice of the hearing. You are not
required to answer at this time any questions that you think might be
incriminating or involve some other privilege, of course. Most of the
witnesses don't have an attorney and I see you don't have one here so
I assume you want to proceed with the questioning without an attorney
being present, is that correct?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your name for the record, please?
Mrs. HUNTER. Gertrude Hunter.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live, Mrs. Hunter?
Mrs. HUNTER. 141 South Hastings, Irving, Tex.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you lived in Irving?
Mrs. HUNTER. I think it was 2 years the 14th of July--right at--between
the 8th and 14th--I don't know the exact dates, but it was 2 years.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you married, Mrs. Hunter?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any children?
Mrs. HUNTER. Four girls.
Mr. LIEBELER. How old are they?
Mrs. HUNTER. Twenty-five, twenty-one, nineteen, and sixteen.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born?
Mrs. HUNTER. Jacksonville, Tex.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you have lived most of your life in Texas?
Mrs. HUNTER. Oh, yes; all my life.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mrs. Edith Whitworth?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you known her?
Mrs. HUNTER. Oh, ever since I came to Irving. We are football fans
together.
Mr. LIEBELER. You came to Irving about 2 years ago?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; in July.
Mr. LIEBELER. It appears from information that has been provided to us
by the FBI that you were in a store operated by Mrs. Whitworth sometime
in 1963--that was formerly operated by Mrs. Whitworth--at which time
people who you now believe to be Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife and
children came into the store, is that correct?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us all the circumstances surrounding that
event as best you can remember them?
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, it was after 2 o'clock and I had went down to talk
to her--we were planning on a football trip and we were just sitting
there in the store talking, discussing football games, and who was
going with who and all, and this man drove up out in front of the store
and he got out and he come in and he asked for a gunsmith.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see the car drive up?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see who was driving it?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was this man driving it?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many people were in the car?
Mrs. HUNTER. Just him and a woman and two children.
Mr. LIEBELER. Nobody else?
Mrs. HUNTER. No one else.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are quite sure about that?
Mrs. HUNTER. I'm positive, because I was sitting right there--I was
sitting this way and the door was right here [indicating], and he drove
cater-cornered up.
Mr. LIEBELER. And there are glass windows in the front of the store so
that you could see right out into the street?
Mrs. HUNTER. It is a solid glass there and the door was standing open
there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know about what kind of car it was?
Mrs. HUNTER. Now, the reason I'm definite about the car--a friend of
mine in Houston--I was looking for them up and they had a car just
like this and I had left a note on my mailbox that I would be at this
place--telling them if anyone come I would be at this place and when
they drove up I thought that was them and it was a two-tone blue Ford.
Mr. LIEBELER. What year?
Mrs. HUNTER. 1957 or 1958--I won't be positive about that, but I would
rather say it was about a 1957, I think.
Mr. LIEBELER. From which direction did this car drive up?
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, now, where the car come from--I don't know whether
it come up Jefferson or down Irving Boulevard, but I know that it did
park into the front of the store where I was sitting, you know, I was
talking and I wasn't paying any attention to which way the car came
from. The only thing I seen is the driver, when he drove up, and I seen
the color of the car, I started to get up because I thought it was
my friends from Houston, and I looked and seen that it wasn't and he
just got out and come in. She didn't get out at that time. He come in
and asked for the gunsmith, and to the best of my knowledge, I'm not
positive, but it seems to me like, because I was thinking that so many
different times that they would come in--whether he had something in
his hand or whether he didn't, but I know he went back to the car, and
if he did, he put it in the car and when he come back in, she got out
and followed him in, but he didn't help her out of the car, he didn't
help her with the kids or nothing. She just followed him in.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is the furniture store that Mrs. Whitworth operated at
that time at the intersection of Jefferson Street and Irving Boulevard,
is that right?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; you come right in to Jefferson and Irving Boulevard.
It used to be the bus station--the Continental Bus Station.
Mr. LIEBELER. And they had diagonal parking on that street? Is that the
way you parked?
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, you see, it was where the buses used to park clean
off the street to get out of the way of the traffic, you see, and you
just come up with the nose right up and you would be out of the traffic.
Mr. LIEBELER. Out of the main street?
Mrs. HUNTER. Just like this here was the store [indicating], well, it
was over this way and he just kind of cater-cornered up this way.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, he parked his car diagonally in front of the store
and got out and came in?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What happened after he went back out and they came back
into the store?
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, he just come in and she was over when her desk was
there and he asked her about some furniture or something and they
walked and went back to the back and this woman, she followed them and
this young baby and the new baby.
Mr. LIEBELER. This man asked Mrs. Whitworth about some furniture?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And Mrs. Whitworth and this man walked toward the back of
the store and the woman and the children followed them; is that right?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; but she wasn't--now, listen, she didn't pay any
attention and this lady had had a new grandbaby.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mean Mrs. Whitworth?
Mrs. HUNTER. Mrs. Whitworth's daughter and she says, "Let me trade you
a boy for this girl and we will both have a boy and girl." Well, they
didn't offer to show the baby or nothing and she didn't say anything.
We thought it was very funny and we discussed it after she walked
out--about her not being interested in showing her new baby, and, of
course, I didn't say anything to them, only I did see the little girl
and so forth. I didn't put my hands on her or nothing and I didn't pay
any attention to what they were saying at the back. All I know is that
they were looking at some furniture there, back there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did this man Oswald say anything about how old the little
baby was?
Mrs. HUNTER. He said something to her but he was back far enough
that what he said to her--I don't know--it was about 2 weeks old or
something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. This is Mrs. Whitworth you are talking about now, or
Oswald?
Mrs. HUNTER. Oswald; and she asked Oswald something about the babies
and I don't remember just what he said to her, but it was something
about the baby, you know, and he didn't seem too enthused about that
either.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't hear Oswald say anything to Mrs. Whitworth
about how old the baby was?
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I won't be positive--it's been so long--just what he
answered her, but just not looking for nothing--I didn't say too much
about it, but we just thought it was a coincidence about him not being
interested in us seeing the new baby. I think he did tell her when it
was born; I'm not positive.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you fix for us the date on which this occurred?
Mrs. HUNTER. Oh, no; not right offhand. All I know is that it was
before the football game--I believe the Richland Hills football game
and it was on a Wednesday or a Thursday--I won't say positive which one.
Mr. LIEBELER. How can you say it was on a Wednesday or Thursday?
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I never did go down to the store only on Wednesdays
or Thursdays afternoons---only the days that we had charters, and I
went down on Friday afternoon.
Mr. LIEBELER. On the days you had charters; what do you mean by that?
Mrs. HUNTER. Charter buses to go.
Mr. LIEBELER. To go to the football game?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a charter bus to go to the football game at
Richland Hills?
Mrs. HUNTER. No; we went in cars that night and that night I would
always wait until my daughter calls at 2 o'clock. When she would call,
then I would go down to the store and that's the reason I definitely
know it was after 2 o'clock.
Mr. LIEBELER. Which daughter is this that you are talking about?
Mrs. HUNTER. Glenda.
Mr. LIEBELER. And what is her last name?
Mrs. HUNTER. Hunter.
Mr. LIEBELER. How old is she?
Mrs. HUNTER. She's 19.
Mr. LIEBELER. And does she live with you at home?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How does it come that she calls you at 2 o'clock?
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, her lunch break--she gets her lunch break from 1
until 2 and she would always call me just a minute or two before she
goes back to work--just a few seconds--every day before she goes to
work.
Mr. LIEBELER. Does she work here in Dallas?
Mrs. HUNTER. At Commercial Title.
Mr. LIEBELER. She always calls you at about 2 o'clock; is that right?
Mrs. HUNTER. Between--she has to be back at her desk at 2. She will
call me anywhere, you know, when it's handy--if she comes up in town
to eat, it may be about 10 minutes until 2. If she takes her lunch and
eats there, it may be 15 minutes to 2, but I would always wait--I would
give her a chance to call me before I would leave and I never would
leave before 2 o'clock.
Mr. LIEBELER. How late in the afternoon could it have been, you think,
that these people did come?
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I would say between 2:30 and 3:30, because I never
did stay gone past 4 o'clock. My daughter comes in from school and she
didn't have any way to get in the house. I locked the house and she
would get to the house before 4 and I would try to be back at the house
before 4 and there was just one or two evenings that I didn't get to
the house before she come in.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say you would always try to get back home by 4
o'clock?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; so I could unlock the door.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear the conversation between Mrs. Whitworth and
this man who came in about the gun?
Mrs. HUNTER. He just asked for the gunsmith and she told him the
gunsmith had moved down the street and she went out in front and
pointed down to where to go and told him where to go and showed him
where it was at. I didn't go out the door. I was just sitting in a
platform rocker and he thanked her and he just went back to the car.
Mr. LIEBELER. And after he went back to the car, then, they all came
back again and went in the store?
Mrs. HUNTER. He came back in and then her and the children got out and
followed him in.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Mrs. Whitworth told him where the
gunshop that used to be in the furniture store had moved or did she
direct him to another gunshop?
Mrs. HUNTER. No; she told him that this man had gone and she thought he
was down in those sport shops or some kind of a shop down the street,
or that there was one down there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with where it is?
Mrs. HUNTER. She was over at the front and I was back here, but I heard
the conversation, you know, what he was asking for and all that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether he had anything in his hands when
he came in?
Mrs. HUNTER. It seems to me like--I'm not positive--that he had
something and it come to me that it was wrapped in brown paper. Now,
I'm not positive about that, but it was just something like you
handle--he didn't have it up in his arms--he just had it in his hands.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea how long the package was, or do you
remember that clearly?
Mrs. HUNTER. No; I just remember there was something in his hands.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know where the Irving Sport Shop is located?
Mrs. HUNTER. No; I sure don't--I have never been there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. Woodrow Greener?
Mrs. HUNTER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Dial Ryder?
Mrs. HUNTER. No; I don't know too many people, I guess, you would call
me selfish, but I don't know too many people in Irving--period. There
are just a very few that I know--just the grocery store where we trade
and the man that runs the bus station and Mrs. Whitworth and one or two
I met going to the football games--I have been there 2 years.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anybody else in the store during the time these
people were there?
Mrs. HUNTER. No; just me and her.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Oswald say anything while she was in the store?
Mrs. HUNTER. I never did hear her open her mouth.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did the little girl, the 2-year-old, behave? Was she
well behaved?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; she just went along holding her her mother's
dresstail. He didn't help her with either one of the babies and she was
walking along. You know, she is kind of shy and it was in a strange
place and she was kind of holding to her mother's coattail when they
were up there where I was at--where the table went around and I don't
know--I just--they was kind of dressed bummy or something--I don't know
what you would call it. She was kind of clean. He looked pretty nice.
I just thought--why was she dressed like that--you know how you will
notice that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear the little girl say anything at all to her
mother or her father?
Mrs. HUNTER. No; I didn't hear her say anything. Now, when they went
down the aisle, nearly to where Mrs. Whitworth and this man was, she
looked down at her and said something, but I didn't understand what she
said. She kind of whispered it to her. Now, I don't know what she said
or--she said shhh--or something like that to her--I didn't understand,
but she did look down.
Mr. LIEBELER. The mother did look down to the little girl?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long were these people in the store altogether--the
family in the store altogether?
Mrs. HUNTER. Oh, I don't know--I would be scared to say about that,
because, not expecting anything--they come and went so much in there--I
didn't pay no attention to about how long they was in there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you along with them when they were looking at the
furniture?
Mrs. HUNTER. No; I was sitting in the platform rocker.
Mr. LIEBELER. But the woman went back and looked at furniture with her
husband?
Mrs. HUNTER. No; she didn't--that's what I say--she just walked along
there and she didn't pay that furniture any mind.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any feeling that there was any argument
going on between them or hostility between them or anything like that?
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, now, I just think to myself--what is he looking at
that for, she isn't interested. That's just the opinion that I got.
Mr. LIEBELER. You thought he seemed to be much more interested in the
furniture than she did?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem strange to you that these people were in the
store there for the period of time that they were and there was not a
single word exchanged between this man and woman?
Mrs. HUNTER. No; I didn't think nothing about that. I don't know--I
don't pay too much attention to anything like that, because while they
were back there, I got up and got out of my chair before they went back
to the car and walked to the door, and was standing looking out the
door up toward the bus that comes in for people to get off of, and I
didn't pay them any more mind until they went out to get in the car.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, they went out and got in the car and what happened
then?
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, when they got in the car--he said something to her,
but I couldn't hear that because I was standing in the door and he
turned like he was going to go back down that way and I said, "Don't
go that way, it's a one-way street, you'll have to go through the red
light and turn left." And he looked at me and he didn't say thank
you or nothing and he just backed out and went on down and I watched
him--he turned at the red light--turned down Main Street.
Mr. LIEBELER. He drove east down Irving Boulevard; is that right?
Mrs. HUNTER. He was going down toward Plymouth Park, I believe it was
west--it's a one-way street and you have to go out and come down south.
Mr. LIEBELER. Which way does Irving Boulevard run--it runs east and
west, doesn't it?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; I would say that it did.
Mr. LIEBELER. And it's a one-way street, and it's a one-way street
running toward the west; is it not?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.