The testimony of Charles W. Greener was taken at 12:15 p.m., on April
1, 1964, at the Irving Sports Shop, 221 East Irving Boulevard, Irving,
Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. I would like to swear you as a witness and she will take
this all down. Would you raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear
that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. GREENER. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. I think that Mr. Sanders' office called you previously
and told you that we would be out here?
Mr. GREENER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have advised you that I am an attorney on the staff
of the President's Commission. I want to ask you about some of the
background concerning the possibility that Lee Oswald or some other
Oswald had a rifle in the shop here and had some work done on it?
Would you state your name?
Mr. GREENER. Charles W. Greener.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you the owner and operator of the Irving Sports Shop
located at 221 East Irving Boulevard in Irving?
Mr. GREENER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is Dial D. Ryder one of your employees?
Mr. GREENER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you known Ryder?
Mr. GREENER. Approximately 6 years.
Mr. LIEBELER. Has he been employed by you here at the shop practically
all that time?
Mr. GREENER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. We have a repair tag that has the number 18374 on it and
the name Oswald, indicating some repairs were to be made to a rifle. We
will mark this picture as Exhibit No. 1, on your deposition. I show you
a picture of this tag and ask you if that is a tag of the type that you
use here in this shop?
Mr. GREENER. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen that tag before?
Mr. GREENER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the first time that you ever saw it?
Mr. GREENER. Approximately a week or less after the assassination was
the first time I had seen it. That was on Thanksgiving Day, I guess,
because they called me at home and I was eating and I met some of the
news media to go through this Thanksgiving.
Mr. LIEBELER. Had there been anything in the newspaper about this tag,
or about Oswald having any work done here before you saw the tag?
Mr. GREENER. Yes; it had come out in the news, and this was Walter
Cronkite was to run a retraction on it, or at least clarify the thing.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of retraction?
Mr. GREENER. Well, they tried to clarify the thing to say that we had
a tag showing a certain amount of work for an Oswald, but as far as
relating to that particular gun or that particular man, we had no real
knowledge of the thing.
Mr. LIEBELER. Had the FBI been out there at the shop before this thing
came out in the newspaper?
Mr. GREENER. No; I don't think so. They came out after all the news
stories.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did the newspaper get hold of this, do you know?
Mr. GREENER. I couldn't tell you that.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are pretty clear that it was in the press before the
FBI ever talked to you?
Mr. GREENER. I am pretty sure it was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether the FBI could have talked to Ryder
or anybody else at the shop?
Mr. GREENER. That I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are the owner of the shop, are you not?
Mr. GREENER. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you here at the shop during the period after the
assassination and prior to the time that the FBI came here for the
first time?
Mr. GREENER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. If the FBI had come here to talk to anybody about Oswald
having been here, they would probably have talked to you, isn't that
right?
Mr. GREENER. It is possible. Now I do know that one newsman came in and
he wasn't going to consult me in any way, so I don't know whether it
would have been the case with the FBI or not.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did the newsman come in?
Mr. GREENER. That was on a--I believe that was on a Monday--following
Monday, as I remember it.
No; wait a minute. No; it wasn't a Monday. That holiday, it's got me
mixed up. It must have been on a Friday after the Thanksgiving holiday.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was after the story had already been out in the
newspaper, is that right?
Mr. GREENER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. This reporter came in and wanted to talk to Ryder?
Mr. GREENER. Right. The paper stated the owner of the Irving Sports
Shop, and he apparently figured that was the correct information.
Of course, all the newspapers, they didn't check out any stories; they
just run to their office and sent it in, as you well know. No one
checked out anything. Anything they could get hold of, they put in
print, and some of the information they got a hold, I don't know where
it came from.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any reason to believe that any reporter
talked to Ryder prior to the time the FBI came to your shop?
Mr. GREENER. One told me he did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that reporter's name?
Mr. GREENER. No; he was with the Times Herald.
Mr. LIEBELER. Dallas Times Herald?
Mr. GREENER. I couldn't swear.
Mr. LIEBELER. He told you he talked to Ryder?
Mr. GREENER. Ryder told me he hadn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Ryder told you the reporter had not talked to him?
Mr. GREENER. Had not talked to him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did the reporter tell you when he had talked to Ryder?
Mr. GREENER. He told me that he talked to him earlier in the morning. I
don't know when that was. I am inclined to believe, to the best of my
knowledge, it was Thanksgiving Day. Now I could be wrong on that. My
recollection is that this story first came out--I am thinking it came
out on Thanksgiving Day.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have here a clipping from the New York Times of
November 29, 1963, which appears to be one of the first times that this
story was released in the New York papers at any rate, November 29,
1963.
Mr. GREENER. What was Thanksgiving Day?
Mr. LIEBELER. Thanksgiving Day was on a Thursday, was it not?
Mr. GREENER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been November 28, so that the 29th would
have been the day that it came out in the New York papers, and it very
likely could have come out in the Dallas paper on Thanksgiving Day.
Mr. GREENER. I think it was Thanksgiving Day when it came out in the
paper, because I hadn't heard anything of it, and I remember we were
playing dominoes when the paper came, and we quit and read the paper,
and then also they had come by to check on this story, and we came up
to the shop and went through that for Walter Cronkite's program.
Mr. LIEBELER. The reporter had come out to check out the story?
Mr. GREENER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show that the newspaper clipping that
I previously referred to is from the New York Times of November 29,
1963, and the story is entitled, "Gunsmith Attached Sight for Man Named
Oswald," and it is a story written by Mr. John Herbers, and it has been
marked as Exhibit No. 2, on Mr. Greener's deposition.
Now do you have a feeling or do you have the thought based on what this
reporter from the Dallas News told you that the reporter had talked to
Ryder prior to the time that the FBI ever came here to the shop?
Mr. GREENER. You are going to have to go through that again. I am not
sure that I was following you all the way. I was thinking a little bit
while you were talking.
Mr. LIEBELER. I am trying to find out at what time this story first
broke, whether the FBI had been here at the shop to ask any questions
before the story came out in the newspapers?
Mr. GREENER. As I recall, no. None of the law enforcing agencies had
been by previous to that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your impression is that he came here because they saw the
story in the paper?
Mr. GREENER. That is my idea. Either that, or they were informed by the
news reporters.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now did this reporter from the Dallas paper, whose name
you don't remember, tell you that Ryder had called him?
Mr. GREENER. No; he told me that he called him, called Ryder.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how he got the idea to call Ryder?
Mr. GREENER. No; he didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't ask him?
Mr. GREENER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss this question with Ryder?
Mr. GREENER. Yes; I did. And he said he had not talked to a newspaper
reporter about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. At all?
Mr. GREENER. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you never had any opportunity or occasion to ask Ryder
whether a reporter or, or whether Ryder contacted a reporter, because
he simply denied talking to a reporter?
Mr. GREENER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when you asked Ryder about this?
Mr. GREENER. Must have been on Friday, because I was a little bit
aggravated at the whole setup. They got me out of bed a time or two
at night, and I believe that I had called the Times Herald to talk to
this reporter to see where he was supposed to have been getting his
information. I'm sure that after I talked to them that day was when I
questioned Ryder. So I feel pretty sure it was Friday or Saturday.
Mr. LIEBELER. The 29th or 30th of November?
Mr. GREENER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Ryder ever indicate to you that he had talked to a
newspaper reporter about this?
Mr. GREENER. No; he did not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection at all of the name of this
reporter from the Dallas newspaper?
Mr. GREENER. No; I don't have the slightest idea about talking with
reporters until this bunch that was going to run the program on Walter
Cronkite's program had contacted me, and he called me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember his name?
Mr. GREENER. No; I don't remember any of the boys with the television
program at all. They had called me and wanted to come down and take
some pictures, and he called me, Ryder did.
Mr. LIEBELER. The television men had called Ryder?
Mr. GREENER. That was after the newspaper article had appeared in the
newspapers.
Mr. LIEBELER. And Ryder called you and talked to you about it, whether
these men could come down?
Mr. GREENER. Yes; and I came down and met with them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what Ryder told them?
Mr. GREENER. To the best of my knowledge, he told them that we had the
ticket, but he didn't remember the name, didn't remember the gun, or
the person, because actually here is the thing about this tag here.
We have tried to keep a little better record. We get busy, you know,
and get a little lax, just like you and everybody else does, and if
we got two or three waiting, why, at that time we were not going to
dally about what the name is or date or address or telephone number or
anything. We felt like we didn't have time.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was just before the deer season?
Mr. GREENER. Yes; I guess the deer season opened November 16 in Texas,
and our workload was pretty heavy, and we were working short handed,
too, which would be one reason for no more information on the tag or
several other tags.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you fix the date?
Mr. GREENER. No; no way in the world. In the first place, I wasn't
here. I feel sure I wasn't here at the time this went on. I was gone
from--I don't remember what day I left. I started hunting in South
Dakota on November 2, and we came back somewhere between the 12th and
14th.
Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you feel that you weren't here at the time
this tag was made up?
Mr. GREENER. Well, in checking around, I feel like possibly that I
would have noticed it on the gunrack. I would--I don't know whether I
would or not, because I do some of the repair work myself, and a lot of
times I go through the guns on the rack to be repaired, and if it is
something I can do, I take care of it. If he is busy, then I take care
of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Ryder, you mean?
Mr. GREENER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you have no recollection of this tag?
Mr. GREENER. None whatsoever, until, I believe, it was the day on
Thanksgiving when they came down here. Now, I believe--this has been
a long time and we are going into phases of this I hadn't thought of
in a long time--it seems to me that the FBI got ahold of him and they
come down scouring through the place. That was very possible after the
newspaper report broke. It could have been before, but it seems to me
that that is when the tag appeared. I believe it was an FBI man who was
out here checking.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, if that is true, then the tag would have had
to have been found and the FBI man would have had to have been here
before the story broke in the newspaper?
Mr. GREENER. No; I said it could possibly be after the newspaper story
appeared, but I believe when the tag was found lying on the desk
somewhere, that the FBI man was here when it was found.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is the best recollection that you have?
Mr. GREENER. Yes; right now.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who found the tag; do you remember?
Mr. GREENER. No; I don't know. If I remember correctly, and I could
be wrong, because like I said, you are going into things that hadn't
entered my mind since November 22, along in there, and it seems to me
that he had contacted Ryder and they had come down here.
Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI?
Mr. GREENER. Yes, and they found the tag on the workbench somewhere.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your impression now is that the FBI man was here when the
tag was found?
Mr. GREENER. That is my impression; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. As we discussed briefly off the record before we started,
it appears that there are three possibilities concerning this tag.
One, in view of the fact that Mr. Ryder is quite clear in his own mind
that he never worked on an Italian rifle similar to the one that was
found in the Texas School Book Depository, we can conclude either that
the Oswald on the tag was Lee Oswald and he brought a different rifle
in here, or it was a different Oswald who brought another rifle in
here, or that the tag is not a genuine tag, and that there never was a
man who came in here with any gun at all. Can you think of any other
possibilities?
Mr. GREENER. That about covers the situation, it looks to me like.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any opinion as to what the real situation is?
Mr. GREENER. Nothing more than I have confidence in the boy, or I
wouldn't have him working for me.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't think he would make this tag up to cause a lot
of commotion?
Mr. GREENER. I don't think so. He doesn't seem like that type boy. I
have lots of confidence in him or I wouldn't have him working for me
and handling money. Especially times I am going off. He--if he wasn't
the right kind of boy, and he pretty well proved he is by dependability
and in all the relations that we have together, and I just don't figure
that is possible. Now I say I don't figure that. Of course, there is
always possibilities of everything, but I don't feel that way.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't feel Ryder would do that?
Mr. GREENER. Not at all; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. When we look at this tag, it appears in the photograph
that it is in two parts. There is a top part entitled "Repair Tag,"
on which writing appears, reading "Oswald, drill and tap, $4.50.
Boresight, $1.50." Or a total of $6. And it appears at the lower part
of the tag; it is in the form of a claim check; isn't that correct?
Mr. GREENER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. The tag number, as I have indicated, is 18374. Would I be
correct in assuming that if this tag had been made up when a customer
came in and left their rifle, that the part of the tag entitled "Claim
Check" would ordinarily have been torn off and given to the customer?
Mr. GREENER. No; you are wrong in assuming that. Because I believe
19 out of 20 would not ask for a claim check. In the first place, 18
out of that 20 would lose the claim check before they got back, so if
you are going to give them a claim check and stick to the thing, not
letting them have the merchandise if they don't have the claim check----
Mr. LIEBELER. You are running into a lot of trouble from a business
point of view?
Mr. GREENER. Yes; when they come back for the merchandise, I ask them
what the name is, and if we have a gun to go by the name----
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you ordinarily tear off the claim check?
Mr. GREENER. No. If you look at the rack, you won't find one on the
whole rack that has a claim check that has been torn off.
Mr. LIEBELER. There isn't any way you can tell from the number when the
check was issued?
Mr. GREENER. No, because we got the tags dumped into a box, and we
reach in and get a tag and tie it onto the merchandise and fill it out.
Mr. LIEBELER. I want to show you some pictures that have previously
been marked in another part of these proceedings as Commission Exhibits
Nos. 451, 453, 454, 455, and 456, and ask you if you recall ever seeing
the person or persons depicted in these pictures?
Mr. GREENER. No; I don't believe I could identify him as ever having
any dealings. Now there is a familiarity there, but I couldn't tie it
with anything or anybody.
Mr. LIEBELER. You couldn't figure out in your mind why you think there
is a familiarity to those pictures?
Mr. GREENER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Had you ever seen those pictures before?
Mr. GREENER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Has the FBI or Dallas Police Department ever shown you
pictures and asked you to identify them?
Mr. GREENER. No; they haven't shown me pictures of anyone for
identification.
Mr. LIEBELER. I want to show you another picture which is a photograph
that has been marked Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B, a photograph of an
individual on a street, and one of them has been indicated by a green
mark on the picture, and ask you to examine that picture and tell me if
you have ever seen that man before?
Mr. GREENER. Not that I can recall now.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you another photograph of a street scene which has
been marked Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A, and ask you if you recognize any
of the people in that photograph? Two of them have been marked with a
green marker, but don't confine your attention entirely to those two
individuals. Tell me if you recognize any of the people in that picture?
Mr. GREENER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Particularly I call your attention to the man who was
standing immediately to the left of the man who is marked with the "X,"
rather than the line, not immediately, to the left of him, then, but
the second man to the left. He is standing there with a tie and he has
some papers in his hand. Does he look familiar to you at all?
Mr. GREENER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you another picture that has been marked Pizzo
Exhibit No. 453-C, and ask you if you can recall ever having seen that
man?
Mr. GREENER. I don't recall.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize that man in the picture?
Mr. GREENER. According to the other pictures in the paper, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who does it look like to you?
Mr. GREENER. It looks like Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't ever remember having seen him?
Mr. GREENER. No; my mental pictures are not hardly as good as it used
to be. You take fooling with people day in and day out, without some
reason to recognize them, the next time you see them--there is a reason
for it, you don't make a mental picture of every person that comes in.
If he was 6'6" and weighed 300 pounds, or gave you some trouble when he
comes for his merchandise, then it is likely you would remember, but
a guy just comes in and tells you what he wants done, and comes back,
and gets his merchandise and doesn't give you any trouble, then you
don't remember. Usually I never forget a face. Now, the first picture
you showed me, there was something there, but I couldn't pin it to
anything, though.
Mr. LIEBELER. I am marking two photographs of a rifle as Exhibits
Nos. 3 and 4, on the deposition of Mr. Greener. I have initialed both
photographs for the purpose of identification, and I would like to have
you initial them, too, so we don't get confused as to which picture we
are looking at.
Mr. GREENER. Both of them?
Mr. LIEBELER. Both of them, please. These are pictures of a rifle. I
would like to have you examine it and tell me whether you have ever
seen that rifle or one similar to it.
Mr. GREENER. No; I don't remember this rifle at all. The first Italian
rifle that I remember seeing was in Worland, Wyo. A friend pulled his
out, and that is the first Italian rifle that I ever recall having seen.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that subsequent to the assassination?
Mr. GREENER. That was while we were on the trip.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember ever having seen a rifle like this in the
shop here?
Mr. GREENER. No; I sure don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have taken the first two exhibits and marked them
Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2, on your deposition, and I have initialed both of
them and I would like to have you initial them also for the purpose of
identification.